The Lemon Fool

88V8 wrote:Apparent price disconnect between the 6s and 8s this morning.
6s at 82, 8s at 90.
Not tested the 6s, screen price, and perhaps just smoke based on buggerall volumes, but just bought 50k of the 8s at 94p, no accrued.

Guess if the 8s start paying they will go to 130/135 and the 6.75 will go to 110?
Fingers crossed.

V8

Oh no tried to get 10k of those this morning, no dice, I guess you bought them all up! No quote in any sensible size right now.

Thanks Setanta for the comments about costs.

GS

One thing that grates rather is that while ii used to allow online dealing in these, they will now only touch them telephone only meaning the fee is £57.99. I did query this last time I spoke with them and she basically shrugged and said that being a complex instrument (ie in suspension) they wanted to make sure that only those who knew what they were doing bought them. Funny how they were happy to let you have them at a £7.99 fee when there was no prospect of a resumption! Of course it is a bit irrelevant when there is no volume about so maybe that has something to do with it.

Maybe it is just me, has anyone else been able to buy these online via ii since the court case?

Padders72 wrote:One thing that grates rather is that while ii used to allow online dealing in these, they will now only touch them telephone only meaning the fee is £57.99. I did query this last time I spoke with them and she basically shrugged and said that being a complex instrument (ie in suspension) they wanted to make sure that only those who knew what they were doing bought them. Funny how they were happy to let you have them at a £7.99 fee when there was no prospect of a resumption! Of course it is a bit irrelevant when there is no volume about so maybe that has something to do with it.

Maybe it is just me, has anyone else been able to buy these online via ii since the court case?

ii has done this to a number of securities, I think WBS and ENQ1 also affected for example. I think all we can do is keep moaning about the situation, last time I complained they did enable trading for a period.

GS

Padders72 wrote:Maybe it is just me, has anyone else been able to buy these online via ii since the court case?

No. At any rate, not for quite a while.
And as GS says, it's not just Manchester, also SKIP, NBSR, NOTP, LBS, 66WS, CVBP, and even NWBD at the moment not that I actually want to buy any.

And before they became phone only, the MBS were usually 'at best'.
It's a bit tiresome.

But at least I got lucky with this morning's trade.

V8

HL still offering online quotes, but only to sell. Up to 100k nominal currently 89.45 for MBSR. Same price for 10k to 100k. I have not managed to buy any since the RNS but occasionally have got prices for 1k. Prices too high for me now in any case and I am more likely to sell than buy to take some risk off the table. This is after all a very small building society.

Eventually, so long as as some other calamity does not come along for Manchester BS, I would have thought a yield similar to the Newcastle PIBS should be achievable, currently about 6% for NBSR.

88V8 wrote:

Padders72 wrote:Maybe it is just me, has anyone else been able to buy these online via ii since the court case?

No. At any rate, not for quite a while.
And as GS says, it's not just Manchester, also SKIP, NBSR, NOTP, LBS, 66WS, CVBP, and even NWBD at the moment not that I actually want to buy any.

And before they became phone only, the MBS were usually 'at best'.
It's a bit tiresome.

But at least I got lucky with this morning's trade.

V8

It's getting harder and harder to buy PIBS, Prefs, and bonds on-line as a retail investor. And even harder to find any at a price I have a burning desire to buy.

I have taken a different tack of late and have used an investment trust, Axiom European Financial Debt (AXI). It is the only GBP denomiated IT I am aware of that invests 100% in PIBS, Prefs, Perpetuals CCDS, subordinated debt etc. I can't say I'm usually too excited at paying a management fee but at a 10% discount to NAV I'm happy to let them do the work.

I've put more information here in the Investment Trust and Unit Trusts catergory:
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=30190

As part of a rounding exercise, I picked up a further 6K MBSR this morning at a faintly painful 95p. The whole process is now so awkward with ii as to make me not bother again, I was on the phone over an hour. I did persuade them to waive the £50 telephone dealing fee this time on the basis I have been purchasing these previously online with no issues and I did make a vague threat about taking some of my funds elsewhere, it really shouldn't be this way, as noted above these are clearly things they no longer want the man in the street to dabble with.

I am now happy with my holding so will sit tight and see what October brings.

Padders72 wrote:As part of a rounding exercise, I picked up a further 6K MBSR this morning at a faintly painful 95p. The whole process is now so awkward with ii as to make me not bother again, I was on the phone over an hour. I did persuade them to waive the £50 telephone dealing fee this time on the basis I have been purchasing these previously online with no issues and I did make a vague threat about taking some of my funds elsewhere, it really shouldn't be this way, as noted above these are clearly things they no longer want the man in the street to dabble with.

I am now happy with my holding so will sit tight and see what October brings.

You've done well to buy them as offers are very thin on the ground. I have too many of the P so let a very small tranche go yesterday at 81p.

At current bid prices if the yield of MBSR/P reaches 7% anytime in the next five years they will have returned at least 10% CAGR over that period. (Assuming interest is resumed forthwith.) Still a pretty good return.



GS

GoSeigen wrote:

Padders72 wrote:As part of a rounding exercise, I picked up a further 6K MBSR this morning at a faintly painful 95p. The whole process is now so awkward with ii as to make me not bother again, I was on the phone over an hour. I did persuade them to waive the £50 telephone dealing fee this time on the basis I have been purchasing these previously online with no issues and I did make a vague threat about taking some of my funds elsewhere, it really shouldn't be this way, as noted above these are clearly things they no longer want the man in the street to dabble with.

I am now happy with my holding so will sit tight and see what October brings.

You've done well to buy them as offers are very thin on the ground. I have too many of the P so let a very small tranche go yesterday at 81p.

At current bid prices if the yield of MBSR/P reaches 7% anytime in the next five years they will have returned at least 10% CAGR over that period. (Assuming interest is resumed forthwith.) Still a pretty good return.



GS

Well if it works out, and fingers crossed it will, I will owe you a pint or two since it has been your enthusiasm and confidence that persuaded me and many others to dip a toe in the water here in the first place. I thank you for that!

MBSP offered in shapes of 10k this morning.

GS

GoSeigen wrote:MBSP offered in shapes of 10k this morning.

GS

At what price?

Padders72 wrote:

GoSeigen wrote:MBSP offered in shapes of 10k this morning.

GS

At what price?

89.8p last time I looked. 7.5% running yield so not much capital appreciation to come but a generous yield if they can pay and keep paying. Fair to say they are no longer a screaming bargain at these prices, entering fair value territory IMO.

The 8s are a better buy but rare as hen's teeth.

GS

GoSeigen wrote:

Padders72 wrote:

GoSeigen wrote:MBSP offered in shapes of 10k this morning.

GS

At what price?

89.8p last time I looked. 7.5% running yield so not much capital appreciation to come but a generous yield if they can pay and keep paying. Fair to say they are no longer a screaming bargain at these prices, entering fair value territory IMO.

The 8s are a better buy but rare as hen's teeth.

GS

Yes, in your situation I'd be a seller not buyer at this level since I would imagine the easy pickings are now elsewhere. That said if these are paying out and sitting at P:110p/R:125p in 6 months maybe there is still decent value even here.

I sold half of my MBSP holding this morning, consistent with current strategy of reducing event risk exposure and exposure to long duration bonds. Happy to let the other half remain at least until we know whether or not they will start paying interest again.

Just a few prefs left in my portfolio. LLPC and SANB will probably be the next to go.

Y

I was hoping for some more guidance from Manchester BS by now, but maybe we will need to wait until the September PIBS announcements. Price still creeping up though despite lack of news. Online quote to sell 20k nominal was 99.5 this morning and 100.778 to buy 5k, so reasonable spread.

Is it my imagination or have market makers switched to quoting clean prices for MBSR/MBSP in the last day or two [i.e. accrued interest added as a separate item -- whereas accrued interest was zero before so clean/dirty pricing made no difference]?

GS

GoSeigen wrote:Is it my imagination or have market makers switched to quoting clean prices for MBSR/MBSP in the last day or two [i.e. accrued interest added as a separate item -- whereas accrued interest was zero before so clean/dirty pricing made no difference]?

GS

It seems that way now at Hargreaves Lansdown. Very interesting!

hiriskpaul wrote:

GoSeigen wrote:Is it my imagination or have market makers switched to quoting clean prices for MBSR/MBSP in the last day or two [i.e. accrued interest added as a separate item -- whereas accrued interest was zero before so clean/dirty pricing made no difference]?

GS

It seems that way now at Hargreaves Lansdown. Very interesting!

Thanks Paul, I've been having trouble with my browser/internet so didn't want to believe what I was seeing.

Half year results are due this month so we'll get a decent idea of what the regulatory capital position is. I'm not expecting the prices too move too far whatever happens, but resumption of coupons will be very welcome. I'm still heavily leveraged and could do with some cash to start repaying some of the debt!

GS

Firstly, thanks to GS et al for flagging these, I managed to jump on your coat tails and pick up a few earlier on.

I saw WBS had inched up and tried to top up, telephoned my broker iDealing and was told that they (WBS) are now no longer CREST settled so they couldn't facilitate buys or sells. This was a week or two ago.
iDealing told me it was WestBrom themselves that would have asked to be de-listed

Are they correct - anyone tried to trade these recently either online or over phone from a retail account?

tincture wrote:Firstly, thanks to GS et al for flagging these, I managed to jump on your coat tails and pick up a few earlier on.

I saw WBS had inched up and tried to top up, telephoned my broker iDealing and was told that they (WBS) are now no longer CREST settled so they couldn't facilitate buys or sells. This was a week or two ago.
iDealing told me it was WestBrom themselves that would have asked to be de-listed

Are they correct - anyone tried to trade these recently either online or over phone from a retail account?

I find the explanation from iDealing unlikely as if WBS had of requested that the PIBS were delisted from CREST I expect they would have put an RNS out in advance of the matter.

I tried to buy some through AJ Bell about 6 weeks ago. AJ Bell have it on phone dealing and they were happy enough to accept my lmit order.

I would ask iDealing to check and see whether the issue has more to do with complex instruments. It would be helpful if you could get back with what you discover.