What's going on with Ecclesiastical 8.625% Pref shares (ELLA)

[stevensfo]

Interactive Investor and one or two other sites are showing these with a div. yield of 3.5%.

https://www.ii.co.uk/shares/ecclesiasti ... 1/LSE:ELLA

Other sites give a div. yield of about 7% which seems about right.

Anyone know why ii is showing half the annual yield?

Steve

[88V8]

Hadn't noticed that, but it just goes to show that one can't always take the data at face value.
Presume those sites with the aberrant yield are pulling their data from the same incorrect source.

Wish I'd sold these along with all my FI a few months ago......

V8

[BullDog]

Hadn't noticed that, but it just goes to show that one can't always take the data at face value.
Presume those sites with the aberrant yield are pulling their data from the same incorrect source.

Wish I'd sold these along with all my FI a few months ago......

V8

Ouch. Yes, at a year low from the year high of 172p. Forgive my ignorance, does the word perpetual mean there's no fixed redemption date?
Edited to add - I see HL calls them "Non-Cumulative Irredeemable Pref". Surely Ecclesiastical can call them in if they chose to?

[BullDog]

Interactive Investor and one or two other sites are showing these with a div. yield of 3.5%.

https://www.ii.co.uk/shares/ecclesiasti ... 1/LSE:ELLA

Other sites give a div. yield of about 7% which seems about right.

Anyone know why ii is showing half the annual yield?

Steve

Yes, HL gives a similar yield to II.

[simoan]

Interactive Investor and one or two other sites are showing these with a div. yield of 3.5%.

https://www.ii.co.uk/shares/ecclesiasti ... 1/LSE:ELLA

Other sites give a div. yield of about 7% which seems about right.

Anyone know why ii is showing half the annual yield?

Steve

Yes, HL gives a similar yield to II.

Oh come on! How long does it take to calculate 862.5/current price (in pence)? Answer: a lot quicker than writing a post on TLF

[Alaric]

[ Forgive my ignorance, does the word perpetual mean there's no fixed redemption date?
Edited to add - I see HL calls them "Non-Cumulative Irredeemable Pref". Surely Ecclesiastical can call them in if they chose to?

There's no fixed redemptoon date. Ecclesiastical may be able to call them with an appropriate legal and accounting process, but only with consent of the holders and they would likely have to pay market price or a premium to that.

You may recall the Aviva caused temporary chaos in the Prefs market by claiming they could call their issues at par.

[BullDog]

[ Forgive my ignorance, does the word perpetual mean there's no fixed redemption date?
Edited to add - I see HL calls them "Non-Cumulative Irredeemable Pref". Surely Ecclesiastical can call them in if they chose to?

There's no fixed redemptoon date. Ecclesiastical may be able to call them with an appropriate legal and accounting process, but only with consent of the holders and they would likely have to pay market price or a premium to that.

You may recall the Aviva caused temporary chaos in the Prefs market by claiming they could call their issues at par.

Thanks, indeed I do. That's most helpful.

[GoSeigen]

People, stop just posting BS here. At least look at the terms of this share rather than trying to guess what they are. Guessing is of no use at all to the OP. Or at the very least post a link to the terms. Ok, we'll let Alaric off because I don't think he's ever lifted a finger to do any research but still...

OP, just about to go out but as soon as I'm back will try to give you a sensible reply.


GS

[GoSeigen]

Interactive Investor and one or two other sites are showing these with a div. yield of 3.5%.

As perpetual shares without a call option their yield would be the dividend divided by price so approx 6.9%. I don't know why II say 3.5%, you'll have to ask them. [Guess: maybe they counted only one of the two semi-annual dividends?]

Hadn't noticed that, but it just goes to show that one can't always take the data at face value.
Presume those sites with the aberrant yield are pulling their data from the same incorrect source.

Wish I'd sold these along with all my FI a few months ago......

V8

Ouch. Yes, at a year low from the year high of 172p. Forgive my ignorance, does the word perpetual mean there's no fixed redemption date?
Edited to add - I see HL calls them "Non-Cumulative Irredeemable Pref". Surely Ecclesiastical can call them in if they chose to?

The terms of the preference shares are in the Articles of Association which you can download here:

https://www.ecclesiastical.com/documents/eio-articles-june-2012.pdf

The terms show that Ecclesiastical has no call option but they may purchase the shares in the market. The shares are irredeemable which means they were issued without any redemption terms, so correct, they cannot be redeemed. However, as the terms make clear they may be subject to capital reduction at par -- but the issuer published a statement in 2018 saying they had no plans to do so. [Capital reduction by my reading of the terms requires a vote of all the shareholders in a GM so you will have to look at the balance of ordinary holders to preference share holders to judge the likelihood of a successful vote.]


GS

[88V8]

... they may be subject to capital reduction at par -- but the issuer published a statement in 2018 saying they had no plans to do so.

And unlike some issuers I do trust Ecclesiastical, so when these bottom out I will likely buy some more.
Along with Bristol Water BWRA which were deemed 'safe' on TMF for reasons I cannot now recall, and Aviva AV.A/B which are safe in that Aviva will not try that stunt again.

However, any issuer who wants to retire their prefs may be waiting for prices to bottom out in order to make a market-price offer, I would be surprised if we don't see some examples of that in the coming months.

V8

[Dod101]

... they may be subject to capital reduction at par -- but the issuer published a statement in 2018 saying they had no plans to do so.

And unlike some issuers I do trust Ecclesiastical, so when these bottom out I will likely buy some more.
Along with Bristol Water BWRA which were deemed 'safe' on TMF for reasons I cannot now recall, and Aviva AV.A/B which are safe in that Aviva will not try that stunt again.

However, any issuer who wants to retire their prefs may be waiting for prices to bottom out in order to make a market-price offer, I would be surprised if we don't see some examples of that in the coming months.

V8

Please let me know when they 'bottom out'. I am sure others will be interested as well, so posting here will be fine.

Dod

[Wozzitworthit]

I have always assumed that GACA aand GACB would fall into the same category as AV.A and AV.B as they effectively became part of Aviva when General Accident was taken over or merged, so I have been watching these as well.

The above , along with BWRA and NWBD , are on my list of possible purchases when the time comes .......and I have no idea when that will be.




Woz

[88V8]

And unlike some issuers I do trust Ecclesiastical, so when these bottom out I will likely buy some more.

Please let me know when they 'bottom out'. I am sure others will be interested as well, so posting here will be fine.

Will do Dod.
It will be quite a flat bottom, you'll have plenty of opportunity to take a punt.

I have always assumed that GACA and GACB would fall into the same category as AV.A and AV.B as they effectively became part of Aviva when General Accident was taken over or merged,

I believe those prefs are all that remain of General Accident. You may be right, that they are similarly protected after Aviva's burnt fingers, but I sold mine.

V8