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Reading the data on the ii website?

Closed-end funds and OEICs
stevensfo
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Reading the data on the ii website?

#408696

Postby stevensfo » May 2nd, 2021, 8:33 am

If I go and look at the data for example, Finsbury Growth and Income IT (FGT), I see this:

https://www.ii.co.uk/investment-trusts/ ... rd/LSE:FGT

Scrolling down, there is a table comparing it with similar ITs, that give the Premium/Discount, Yield, %Increase up to 5 years etc.

Maybe a silly question for some, but could some kind soul tell me if the 5yr% figure is the increase in price only, or Total return with dividends reinvested? I assume the latter, but can't find any explanation on the site.

Many thanks,

Steve

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Re: Reading the data on the ii website?

#408699

Postby Dod101 » May 2nd, 2021, 8:57 am

stevensfo wrote:If I go and look at the data for example, Finsbury Growth and Income IT (FGT), I see this:

https://www.ii.co.uk/investment-trusts/ ... rd/LSE:FGT

Scrolling down, there is a table comparing it with similar ITs, that give the Premium/Discount, Yield, %Increase up to 5 years etc.

Maybe a silly question for some, but could some kind soul tell me if the 5yr% figure is the increase in price only, or Total return with dividends reinvested? I assume the latter, but can't find any explanation on the site.

Many thanks,

Steve


My guess would be the opposite, that it is a reflection of share price only. They seem to be emphasising the share price all through the chart. Unless they have adapted the chart for ITs, then the usual way to display these would be the actual share price, say for the likes of Unilever. But I do not know and the only way to find out would be to ask II if it cannot be found on the site.

Dod

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Re: Reading the data on the ii website?

#408710

Postby mc2fool » May 2nd, 2021, 9:51 am

stevensfo wrote:Maybe a silly question for some, but could some kind soul tell me if the 5yr% figure is the increase in price only, or Total return with dividends reinvested? I assume the latter, but can't find any explanation on the site.

Comparing with https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/0P ... erformance it looks like the ii figure is TR.

(Note that the AIC figures are for the day before, which could explain the minor differences.)

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Re: Reading the data on the ii website?

#408729

Postby Alaric » May 2nd, 2021, 11:16 am

stevensfo wrote:Total return with dividends reinvested? I assume the latter, but can't find any explanation on the site.


More likely to be Total Return with dividends treated as withdrawn on their payment dates. Whilst OEICs and ETFs would calculate an accumulation unit price with notionally reinvested dividends, no similar calculation is readily available for ITs.

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Re: Reading the data on the ii website?

#408739

Postby stevensfo » May 2nd, 2021, 12:02 pm

Thanks guys. I finally bit the bullet and did something my teacher told me to do many, many years ago: some Maths! ;)

Using the 5 year chart for both FGT and Middlefield Canadian Income (MCT), it's pretty obvious that the 5-year increase given in the table lower down is much greater than the 5-year share price increase, and sort of matches the share price increase plus the five years of dividends. I chose MCT due to its high dividends that I've been collecting for the last eight years.

Steve

PS I could help noticing in the FGT table showing other ITs, that for all its fame, it doesn't seem as good as Law Debenture, which beats it both on dividends and TR. In any case, I hold both and am pretty much LTBH so I'll find something else to worry about.

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Re: Reading the data on the ii website?

#408742

Postby Dod101 » May 2nd, 2021, 12:07 pm

Interesting stevensfo and thanks for doing that.

Dod

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Re: Reading the data on the ii website?

#408744

Postby mc2fool » May 2nd, 2021, 12:17 pm

Alaric wrote:
stevensfo wrote:Total return with dividends reinvested? I assume the latter, but can't find any explanation on the site.

More likely to be Total Return with dividends treated as withdrawn on their payment dates. Whilst OEICs and ETFs would calculate an accumulation unit price with notionally reinvested dividends, no similar calculation is readily available for ITs.

Sure there is. The AIC*, Morningstar* and Trustnet all have total-return-with-dividend-reinvested performance figures for ITs, and all of the ITs fact sheets and the like quote TR on that basis too.

https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/0P00000XEG/performance
https://tools.morningstar.co.uk/uk/cefreport/default.aspx?tab=1&Id=F0GBR053PE
https://www.trustnet.com/factsheets/t/fd89/finsbury-growth--income-trust-plc

* the AIC's figures are supplied by Morningstar

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Re: Reading the data on the ii website?

#408767

Postby monabri » May 2nd, 2021, 2:02 pm

The figures are total return.

Use the comparison tool at HL. Here's the 5 year FGT v LWDB comparison.

https://www.hl.co.uk/funds/fund-discoun ... ion/charts

Image

( there is an option to compare prices only by selecting the appropriate "radio" button).

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Re: Reading the data on the ii website?

#408768

Postby monabri » May 2nd, 2021, 2:22 pm

Here's the numbers.

Image

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Re: Reading the data on the ii website?

#408770

Postby monabri » May 2nd, 2021, 2:26 pm

Might as well include the Unilever figures whilst I'm here ;)

Image

( select "equity", type in the ticker (eg ULVR) and "add" to the chart ( 7 curves max at a time).)

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Re: Reading the data on the ii website?

#409185

Postby LittleDorrit » May 4th, 2021, 9:04 am

Finsbury (FGT) has fo many years pursued a zero discount policy. By contrast the discount at Law Debenture (LWDB) has been comparaitively volatile.
Comparing the NAV total return figures for the two trusts over 5 years, one finds negligible difference in performance.
Not that these snapshots are always particuarly useful.
Law Debenture helpfully gives a comprehensive set of total return figures with each of it's daily NAV RNSs released on the LSE site.

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Re: Reading the data on the ii website?

#409303

Postby doug2500 » May 4th, 2021, 4:53 pm

That's really interesting thanks, Monabri.

What I take away from it is how misleading a first glance can be - look at the cumulative performance and LWDB wins every time period indicating it's been outperforming for a while. Then when you look at the charts you can see that it's only it's outperformance in the last 4 months that's achieved this. Over most of the 5 years FGT has been ahead.


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