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City Of London (CTY)

Closed-end funds and OEICs
absolutezero
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#424312

Postby absolutezero » July 2nd, 2021, 10:37 pm

Dod101 wrote:
absolutezero wrote:Further to earlier posts
I have now sold my holdings in the very low yielding DS Smith and Diageo and re-deployed the capital into City of London.
My yield is improved.


Presumably then you are living off your dividends and need the income? And at the risk of stating the obvious you presumably rejected the idea of selling some shares in either of the individual holdings to bolster the yield from them? That is what City of London does as you know, I am sure.

Dod

I don't spend my capital.
I know the theory behind it but I just don't like it.
If the manager decides to sell some capital to create income then fine, but I don't want to do it myself.
They have debt instruments and gearing etc. I will let them manage that.

Dod101
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#424342

Postby Dod101 » July 3rd, 2021, 7:14 am

absolutezero wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
absolutezero wrote:Further to earlier posts
I have now sold my holdings in the very low yielding DS Smith and Diageo and re-deployed the capital into City of London.
My yield is improved.


Presumably then you are living off your dividends and need the income? And at the risk of stating the obvious you presumably rejected the idea of selling some shares in either of the individual holdings to bolster the yield from them? That is what City of London does as you know, I am sure.

Dod

I don't spend my capital.
I know the theory behind it but I just don't like it.
If the manager decides to sell some capital to create income then fine, but I don't want to do it myself.
They have debt instruments and gearing etc. I will let them manage that.


I agree with you entirely. I was just wondering about your thought process, but I must say I hold Diageo (and Unilever for that matter) and would not consider selling either to improve my income because I like the 'total return' I get. Will not say more as this could rapidly get off topic.

Dod

monabri
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City Of London (CTY) dividend-declaration

#429744

Postby monabri » July 22nd, 2021, 7:11 pm

https://www.investegate.co.uk/city-of-l ... 55301832G/

"A fourth interim dividend of 4.80p per ordinary share of 25p, in respect of the year ended 30 June 2021 will be paid on 31 August 2021 to holders registered at the close of business on 6 August 2021. The Company's shares will go ex-dividend on 5 August 2021.

The total dividend for the year to 30 June 2021 is 19.10p per share, an increase of 0.5% over the previous year."

monabri
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#441016

Postby monabri » September 9th, 2021, 4:55 pm

https://www.investegate.co.uk/city-of-l ... 08103210L/

"A first interim dividend of 4.80p per Ordinary Share of 25p, in respect of the year ending 30 June 2022 will be paid on 30 November 2021 to holders registered at the close of business on 29 October 2021. The Company's shares will go ex-dividend on 28 October 2021."

forrado
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444532

Postby forrado » September 22nd, 2021, 6:17 pm

City of London board announces appointment of likely successor to long-standing fund manager Job Curtis ...

https://www.theaic.co.uk/aic/news/citywire-news/dividend-hero-city-of-london-makes-smith-jobs-deputy

Now aged 60, the question of who takes over when Job Curtis decides to step aside is now out in the open.

Dod101
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444557

Postby Dod101 » September 22nd, 2021, 8:13 pm

forrado wrote:City of London board announces appointment of likely successor to long-standing fund manager Job Curtis ...

https://www.theaic.co.uk/aic/news/citywire-news/dividend-hero-city-of-london-makes-smith-jobs-deputy

Now aged 60, the question of who takes over when Job Curtis decides to step aside is now out in the open.


And another rising dividend...........of 0.1p per share. Not much heroics there.

Dod

ADrunkenMarcus
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444561

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » September 22nd, 2021, 8:48 pm

Dod101 wrote:And another rising dividend...........of 0.1p per share. Not much heroics there.


I think a fair few ITs will need to settle for glacial dividend increases for quite a few years to come as reserves are rebuilt. This is certainly true if they wish to sustain dividend growth in the future!

Best wishes


Mark.

Dod101
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444562

Postby Dod101 » September 22nd, 2021, 9:03 pm

ADrunkenMarcus wrote:
Dod101 wrote:And another rising dividend...........of 0.1p per share. Not much heroics there.


I think a fair few ITs will need to settle for glacial dividend increases for quite a few years to come as reserves are rebuilt. This is certainly true if they wish to sustain dividend growth in the future!

Best wishes


Mark.


I guess you are right although the article that forrado highlighted did say that they have built up a lot of realised capital gains which they could use if shareholders agreed. They are though running down their Revenue Reserves hence I suppose the very modest increase in the dividend.

Dod

kempiejon
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444564

Postby kempiejon » September 22nd, 2021, 9:15 pm

I see SMT have increased by more this year 5% - than the 5, 10 and 15 year averages of 3-5%. Those income ITs smoothing out for investors will indeed have to wait for reserves to build and rate of increase will probably suffer. Still there's more to ITs than income.

jonb1950
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444675

Postby jonb1950 » September 23rd, 2021, 11:46 am

kempiejon wrote:I see SMT have increased by more this year 5% - than the 5, 10 and 15 year averages of 3-5%. Those income ITs smoothing out for investors will indeed have to wait for reserves to build and rate of increase will probably suffer. Still there's more to ITs than income.


I think you must mean CTY, not SMT? By my reckoning:

CTY City of London Investment Trust: up 4.6% since 2/1/21
SMT Scottish Mortgage Investment Trust: up 16.8% since 2/1/21

SMT (from Hargreaves Lansdown)
1 year 48.34%
2 years 177.60%
3 years 169.78%
5 years 344.64%

Arborbridge
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444679

Postby Arborbridge » September 23rd, 2021, 11:51 am

ADrunkenMarcus wrote:
Dod101 wrote:And another rising dividend...........of 0.1p per share. Not much heroics there.


I think a fair few ITs will need to settle for glacial dividend increases for quite a few years to come as reserves are rebuilt. This is certainly true if they wish to sustain dividend growth in the future!

Best wishes


Mark.


This is going to provide interesting comparisons with my HYP and OEIC income streams. I'm fully expecting the OEIC stream to come romping back if real company payouts do, but ITs to be a little slower. I'm sure ITs will want to show willing on the payout front while taking the view that they can build up reserves slowly (they have years to do it) - it'll be a question of keeping all sides happy.

As for my HYP..... well, I will let you know!

Arb.

Dod101
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444699

Postby Dod101 » September 23rd, 2021, 12:48 pm

We are nearly at the end of the third quarter and I expect that my year end income from dividends will be more or less back to the 2019 level, and that despite the falls in income from Shell, HSBC and Imperial Brands.

Those ITs that are struggling are invested in exactly the same markets as the average HYPer and so will naturally reflect their experience. I am thinking of City of London, Edinburgh and the like. I do not hold these and whilst my ITs mostly have a lower yield they have all increased their dividends throughout the pandemic and only one or two have had to resort to raiding their reserves. Murray Income in their recently released results for the year to 30 June, expect for the current year that dividend revenue will cover the expected dividend for this year.

City of London is widely followed (often by dedicated HYPers as far as I can see, but I think that is probably a mistake.

I hope this post is not regarded as off topic.

Dod

Arborbridge
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444710

Postby Arborbridge » September 23rd, 2021, 1:16 pm

Dod101 wrote:City of London is widely followed (often by dedicated HYPers as far as I can see, but I think that is probably a mistake.

I hope this post is not regarded as off topic.

Dod


It hasn't been a mistake for very much of the last couple of decades, though it has been widely noticed that CTY's performance started to struggle after the brexit referendum. If you remember, I dumped Murray Income in favour of CTY simply because the former had a poor record compared with the latter, then MUT did well after that.

Life is at mercy of the wheel of fortune (subject of a great painting by Burne-Jones): sometimes we are near the top, then later at the bottom waiting for the next turn of the wheel. 8-)

Arb.

nmdhqbc
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444752

Postby nmdhqbc » September 23rd, 2021, 3:13 pm

jonb1950 wrote:
kempiejon wrote:I see SMT have increased by more this year 5% - than the 5, 10 and 15 year averages of 3-5%. Those income ITs smoothing out for investors will indeed have to wait for reserves to build and rate of increase will probably suffer. Still there's more to ITs than income.


I think you must mean CTY, not SMT? By my reckoning:

CTY City of London Investment Trust: up 4.6% since 2/1/21
SMT Scottish Mortgage Investment Trust: up 16.8% since 2/1/21

SMT (from Hargreaves Lansdown)
1 year 48.34%
2 years 177.60%
3 years 169.78%
5 years 344.64%


they're talking about the dividend not the share price.

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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444806

Postby jonb1950 » September 23rd, 2021, 6:25 pm

they're talking about the dividend not the share price.


Oops, sorry, my mistake ... I should have thought of that!

Dod101
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444836

Postby Dod101 » September 23rd, 2021, 8:13 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
Dod101 wrote:City of London is widely followed (often by dedicated HYPers as far as I can see, but I think that is probably a mistake.

I hope this post is not regarded as off topic.

Dod


It hasn't been a mistake for very much of the last couple of decades, though it has been widely noticed that CTY's performance started to struggle after the brexit referendum. If you remember, I dumped Murray Income in favour of CTY simply because the former had a poor record compared with the latter, then MUT did well after that.

Life is at mercy of the wheel of fortune (subject of a great painting by Burne-Jones): sometimes we are near the top, then later at the bottom waiting for the next turn of the wheel. 8-)

Arb.


I genuinely do not think that you can blame City of London's wobbles on Brexit much as any remainer might like to do so. Life may be at the mercy of the wheel of fortune but investing need not be.

Dod

Arborbridge
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444858

Postby Arborbridge » September 23rd, 2021, 9:52 pm

Dod101 wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
Dod101 wrote:City of London is widely followed (often by dedicated HYPers as far as I can see, but I think that is probably a mistake.

I hope this post is not regarded as off topic.

Dod


It hasn't been a mistake for very much of the last couple of decades, though it has been widely noticed that CTY's performance started to struggle after the brexit referendum. If you remember, I dumped Murray Income in favour of CTY simply because the former had a poor record compared with the latter, then MUT did well after that.

Life is at mercy of the wheel of fortune (subject of a great painting by Burne-Jones): sometimes we are near the top, then later at the bottom waiting for the next turn of the wheel. 8-)

Arb.


I genuinely do not think that you can blame City of London's wobbles on Brexit much as any remainer might like to do so. Life may be at the mercy of the wheel of fortune but investing need not be.

Dod


Did I blame them on Brexit? I just said the problems began about that time, the same as it did with the similar UK shares in my own HYP. Quite a few HYP type shares suffered and did not recovery fully - whether it was Brexit or not, I wouldn't know, but the decline or flat-lining or whatever began when the market uncertainties began then. Coincidence perhaps?

Arb.

Dod101
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444863

Postby Dod101 » September 23rd, 2021, 10:08 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
It hasn't been a mistake for very much of the last couple of decades, though it has been widely noticed that CTY's performance started to struggle after the brexit referendum. If you remember, I dumped Murray Income in favour of CTY simply because the former had a poor record compared with the latter, then MUT did well after that.

Life is at mercy of the wheel of fortune (subject of a great painting by Burne-Jones): sometimes we are near the top, then later at the bottom waiting for the next turn of the wheel. 8-)

Arb.


I genuinely do not think that you can blame City of London's wobbles on Brexit much as any remainer might like to do so. Life may be at the mercy of the wheel of fortune but investing need not be.

Dod


Did I blame them on Brexit? I just said the problems began about that time, the same as it did with the similar UK shares in my own HYP. Quite a few HYP type shares suffered and did not recovery fully - whether it was Brexit or not, I wouldn't know, but the decline or flat-lining or whatever began when the market uncertainties began then. Coincidence perhaps?

Arb.


I see, sorry I misread your comment. They fell back owing to the loss of confidence brought on by Brexit. Perfectly possible. Your comment about the same thing happening with your own HYP shares would be correct because as I said, City of London mirrors many HYPs, which is not surprising since City of London holds most of them.#

Dod

Arborbridge
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444903

Postby Arborbridge » September 24th, 2021, 7:37 am

Dod101 wrote:
I see, sorry I misread your comment. They fell back owing to the loss of confidence brought on by Brexit. Perfectly possible. Your comment about the same thing happening with your own HYP shares would be correct because as I said, City of London mirrors many HYPs, which is not surprising since City of London holds most of them.#

Dod


Actually, maybe I am wrong. It looks as thought they were fairly much in step during the referendum time, so I mis-observed it. CTY was marginally on top until January 2019 when MUT crossed over and never looked back The interesting thing is that both CTY and MUT shared very similar portfolios (HYP-ish, one might say), but started parting ways seriously in 2019, when I think MUT was quicker off the mark to make the adjustments required. EDIN and my HYP faired even worse, dropping away further BTW, but the chart becomes too crowded. I might put up one with all the income ITs one day - which ends up looking like plaited rope.

Another factor which comes into play is the discount - shown here is the share price only.

Image
Arb.

monabri
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Re: City Of London (CTY)

#444912

Postby monabri » September 24th, 2021, 8:09 am

With Murray, there is also the added complication of the merger (?) with Perpetual ( PLI).


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