The Lemon Fool

yieldhog wrote:What I can't really understand is why funds like HHI only yield 6.79% when there are so many opportunities for stocks yielding 10% or more, especially when the funds brief covers more than just the FTSE 100.

I know that some people have a min and a max value for the yield, and they don't include any shares that fall outside that range.
Far too low a yield might be seen as not being "productive" enough, so discarded from the selection.
Too high a yield (often??) correlates to a depressed share price / cash flow issues / company in trouble, so shares above a threshold are discarded as too risky.

Whether that's what is happening with HHI, I've no idea.

Also, I'm just an amateur here, so the above might be incorrect.

stacker512 wrote:

Dod101 wrote:If people would use names of shares in full that would help a lot for my understanding of what is being discussed.

True I agree. However, it also doesn't take much effort to look it up, double-click on the ticker, right click google search and then prepend "hl" to it, it generally works.

Otherwise, we start typing up "CT UK High Income Trust plc (CHI) Ordinary 0.1p Shares (GB00B1N4G299) on the London Stock Exchange", which is far too verbose (and still doesn't tell us much about the composition or the sector).

I think here is a balance that can be struck. No one is actually going to type the long description you have quoted and enough to identify a share is all that is required surely?

Dod

It seems a little early in 2024 (47 days in!) for people to be using YTD figures as anything meaningful. We tell people "you should have a timescale of 7 years for investments", not 7 weeks.

EthicsGradient wrote:It seems a little early in 2024 (47 days in!) for people to be using YTD figures as anything meaningful. We tell people "you should have a timescale of 7 years for investments", not 7 weeks.

Quite right, although I don't think I'm guilty of that but please correct me if I am.

Y

daveh wrote:My HYPish portfolio (which contains a number of your value traps, eg VOD and HFEL) is only down 1.44% YTD.

I just put MRCH, CTY, MUT, HFEL into HL's site on their interactive graph function with SMT as a growth comparator. YTD HFEL is in second place behind SMT and MRCH, CTY and MUT are all lagging. Long term though HFEL's performance has been atrocious, but has plateaued recently. Maybe the change in manager and the suggestion that the fund is not going to chase yields to the same extent is leading to an improved capital performance going forward.

Did you do a total return comparison (using the HL Funds comparison tool) or a Price comparison (using the HL Shares comparison tool) ?. Being Total Return oriented I usually do the former, that was what I was quoting the 3-5 year results from.

HFEL has been doing better recently but I still dont trust it, if you've held this long term then thats not good IMHO. VOD has not improved and if you've held that long term then that would have been even worse, again IMHO.

I agree that YTD figures arent too meaningful at this stage, though AEIs 9% fall in that time is perhaps noteworthy.

Being that your portfolio is a HYP I guess one should expect it to closely follow FTSE 100 performance. I am not a HYPer (obviously) as I believe exposure outside the FTSE 100 (and certainly to overseas stocks) is critically important to overall performance.

ATB

Pref

PrefInvestor wrote:

daveh wrote:My HYPish portfolio (which contains a number of your value traps, eg VOD and HFEL) is only down 1.44% YTD.

I just put MRCH, CTY, MUT, HFEL into HL's site on their interactive graph function with SMT as a growth comparator. YTD HFEL is in second place behind SMT and MRCH, CTY and MUT are all lagging. Long term though HFEL's performance has been atrocious, but has plateaued recently. Maybe the change in manager and the suggestion that the fund is not going to chase yields to the same extent is leading to an improved capital performance going forward.

Did you do a total return comparison (using the HL Funds comparison tool) or a Price comparison (using the HL Shares comparison tool) ?. Being Total Return oriented I usually do the former, that was what I was quoting the 3-5 year results from.

HFEL has been doing better recently but I still dont trust it, if you've held this long term then thats not good IMHO. VOD has not improved and if you've held that long term then that would have been even worse, again IMHO.

I agree that YTD figures arent too meaningful at this stage, though AEIs 9% fall in that time is perhaps noteworthy.

Being that your portfolio is a HYP I guess one should expect it to closely follow FTSE 100 performance. I am not a HYPer (obviously) as I believe exposure outside the FTSE 100 (and certainly to overseas stocks) is critically important to overall performance.

ATB

Pref

Share price I couldn't see a total return graph on HL. I'll go and have a better look. HFEL will look a lot better TR wise (though still poor) due to the large dividends.

I've held VOD for a long time (pre the Verizon sale - shame I reinvested a lot of that cash back into VOD shares) and am still showing a positive total return, but the performance has been poor (I was going to use a word beginning with s) since about 2017.

I started as a HYP but its now HYPish as I have some high yield ETFs for non UK (plus VWRL for its high US component) some renewable ITs, a recently added bond IT NCYF and SMT bought in my unsheltered account as a place to park money outside my ISA where it wouldn't earn to much (tax tail wagging the portfolio dog).

daveh wrote:Share price I couldn't see a total return graph on HL. I'll go and have a better look. HFEL will look a lot better TR wise (though still poor) due to the large dividends..

If you select a share, ETF or trust by name on HL and do a comparison there you just get a price comparison.

To get a total return comparison you need to use the funds section of the site, as Funds are always compared in Total Return terms.

The procedure for doing this is as follows:-
1. Go to Funds section of the HL site and pick a Fund, doesnt matter which fund as Ill explain in a moment. So pick Fundsmith say.
2. Having got to the Fundsmith page select the "Charts & Performance" tab
3. Now select the other investments (be they shares, ETFs, trusts or Funds) that you want to do a comparison of one at a time and add them to the chart as follows
a) Under "Chart Options" make sure Total Return is selected
b) In "Add to Chart" select Equity (for a share, ETF or trust), then enter the EPIC code in the EPIC/Symbol field then press the "Find Equity" button followed by the "Add to chart". A new line will appear on the chart chowing the total return of that investment.
c) Repeat b) once for each share, ETF or Trust that you want to include in the comparison.
d) Finally you will end up with a list comprising the original fund together with each investment for which you asked for a comparison. Within this table select the radio button next to the original fund and press the Remove button under chart options.
e) You will then have a total return comparison of just the investments for which you asked for a total return comparison.
f) Change the "time span" field under chart options to get the time period that you want.

Enjoy. Its a powerful facility for getting total return comparisons, just wish the time periods selectable had more granularity and greater length.

If you ask me HFEL looks pretty hideous over 1, 3 or 5 years !. And VOD, well just a horror story.... I'm looking at their charts right now.

ATB

Pref

PS I have a set of FTSE 100 holdings (about 9 right now) in my portfolio but I dont call it a HYP because I dont do the whole yield management process that HYPers do.

PrefInvestor wrote:

daveh wrote:

Enjoy. Its a powerful facility for getting total return comparisons, just wish the time periods selectable had more granularity and greater length.

If you ask me HFEL looks pretty hideous over 1, 3 or 5 years !. And VOD, well just a horror story.... I'm looking at their charts right now.

ATB

Pref

PS I have a set of FTSE 100 holdings (about 9 right now) in my portfolio but I dont call it a HYP because I dont do the whole yield management process that HYPers do.

Thanks, I'll go and have a play. I had a look at HFEL on the LSE site and the loss on share price was -23% and -40% for 1 and 5yrs respectively but on total return it was only -14% and -7% for 1 and 5 yrs respectively. So the 5yr total return was still bad but no where near as bad as the price performance.

My portfolio is 45 shares/ETFs/ITs which is rather a lot. Some of the shares are only being held onto as they may come in useful for their capital loss at some point. For example I used my non sheltered Natwest holding last year to save me tax on £3.5k of gains above the CGT allowance. With the CGT allowance coming down to £6k this year and £3k next year those loses may turn out to be quite valuable, though I've got most of my holdings in ISAs now.

PrefInvestor wrote:I’m not impressed with AEI either myself (or indeed ANY Aberdeen trusts TBH) down ~9% YTD. Lets face it some high yielding investments are just value traps (eg VOD, ABDN, HFEL for example) and need to be avoided IMHO. In fact a really high yield is very often a warning sign that the investment is a value trap.

You're right about high yield, I don't think many folk across all boards here would disagree. The much more interesting question then, which most of those same folk can't or decline to answer, is how high is too high ? (Don't get me started on that....)

The sentiments about Aberdeen which I've seen before puzzle me. From what I read they are all unqualified opinion, rather than counting. Counting tell us income investors that AEI has paid a stable and rising income for the last 10 years, at least.

Is my counting wrong?

moorfield wrote:

PrefInvestor wrote:I’m not impressed with AEI either myself (or indeed ANY Aberdeen trusts TBH) down ~9% YTD. Lets face it some high yielding investments are just value traps (eg VOD, ABDN, HFEL for example) and need to be avoided IMHO. In fact a really high yield is very often a warning sign that the investment is a value trap.

You're right about high yield, I don't think many folk across all boards here would disagree. The much more interesting question then, which most of those same folk can't or decline to answer, is how high is too high ? (Don't get me started on that....)

The sentiments about Aberdeen which I've seen before puzzle me. From what I read they are all unqualified opinion, rather than counting. Counting tell us income investors that AEI has paid a stable and rising income for the last 10 years, at least.

Is my counting wrong?

You are correct.

I have held AEI since 2013, and it has an unblemished record of dividend increases. They have risen at a CAGR of over 6% over that period - well in excess of inflation.

Total Return? - not so great, but positive.

FD

funduffer wrote:Total Return? - not so great, but positive.

The clue is in the name though, isn't it.

moorfield wrote:You're right about high yield, I don't think many folk across all boards here would disagree. The much more interesting question then, which most of those same folk can't or decline to answer, is how high is too high ? (Don't get me started on that....)

The sentiments about Aberdeen which I've seen before puzzle me. From what I read they are all unqualified opinion, rather than counting. Counting tell us income investors that AEI has paid a stable and rising income for the last 10 years, at least.

Is my counting wrong?

Hi FD, You can view the Total Return for the AEI trust on the AIC chart here (HL total return charts only go back 5 years):-

https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/ab ... erformance

According to this chart if you've held since 2013 then you will indeed have seen a positive share price total return of 9.57%. However on ALL shorter timescales the total return figures are negative.

ATB

Pref

Sorry guys, quoted moorfields post instead of funduffers - finger trouble.

ATB

Pref

PrefInvestor wrote:According to this chart if you've held since 2013 then you will indeed have seen a positive share price total return of 9.57%. However on ALL shorter timescales the total return figures are negative

Sorry to be pedantic, but that claim isn't true. It so happens that, for today, the returns for the arbitrarily chosen timescales picked from the chart (1 month, 1 year, and 5 years) that is indeed the case. However, "according to this chart" there are several possible entry points within the past ten years where a positive share price TR has resulted. In fact, higher on the same AIC page, they indicate a positive 3 year share price TR.

(Not saying anything about AEI as an investment - just felt compelled to respond to the assertively capitalised "ALL"... )

Trustnet's charting tools are quite good for long term comparisons. Here's abrdn Equity Income, Merchants, City of London and Henderson Far East Income, since they've been discussed:

https://www2.trustnet.com/Tools/Chartin ... TCTY,FJ408

You can set any specific start (and end) date if you want. You can also select "Indices", and under that, add eg FTSE All-share, or UK Consumer Price Index. It defaults to total return ("with reinvestment"), but you can change that to "without income reinvested" under "chart basis".

Using total return, we see abrdn Equity Inc has been pretty flat in absolute terms since July 2015. Apart from buying in the covid trough of 2020, any purchase after about July 2013 will have failed to keep up with the CPI. Henderson Far East did worse still.

EthicsGradient wrote:Trustnet's charting tools are quite good for long term comparisons. Here's abrdn Equity Income, Merchants, City of London and Henderson Far East Income, since they've been discussed:

https://www2.trustnet.com/Tools/Chartin ... TCTY,FJ408

You can set any specific start (and end) date if you want. You can also select "Indices", and under that, add eg FTSE All-share, or UK Consumer Price Index. It defaults to total return ("with reinvestment"), but you can change that to "without income reinvested" under "chart basis".

Using total return, we see abrdn Equity Inc has been pretty flat in absolute terms since July 2015. Apart from buying in the covid trough of 2020, any purchase after about July 2013 will have failed to keep up with the CPI. Henderson Far East did worse still.

Yes I like the look of this Trustnet charting tool, has some nice features. Long timescales, exact timescale (sometimes required), sector and index comparisons too. Looks very good, I must give it a try. Also seems you can create a comparison and send it as a link - most tools cant do that and you have to create an image and post that - which is tedious and requires you to have a hosting site or use cloud storage.

I note that in your chart MRCH & CTY have performed best - supporting my comment in a previous post.

Thanks for the info on the Trustnet tool.

ATB

Pref

Not wishing to get off-topic, since I started this thread and have appreciated a lot of the comments, but I find it slightly irritating when posters make derogarory comments about high yield investing. I usually just ignore them but occassionally feel compelled to respond. Perhaps I should change my screen name to discourage them.

As I have said many times in my comments on TMF, we invest to suit our personal objectives, circumstances, and risk preferences. My own circumstances are that I'm 76-Years old, have been retired for over 15-years and relatively conservative in my risk preferences. I consider myself to be in a comfortable financial position.

Most of my comments on TMF are related to my SIPP, which I have been actively managing for more than 15-years. My focus for that fund is to generate sufficient yield to sustain a modest supplemental income plus sufficient excess to allow for growth of the fund. Over more than 15-years the SIPP has grown substantially while always providing a modest income supplement. Last year was no exception: My SIPP provided a Total Return of 13.4% which after inflation was 9.04%. Based on my current projections, this year should provide a dividend income of about 7.5% to set against a projected inflation rate of 3%. Clearly none us know what the market will do this year but whatever it does I feel reasonably assured that my SIPP objectives will again be met this year, as they have been for the last 15-years.

My point is, don't make ignorant comments about what you see as someone's investment style when you have no understanding of their personal circumstances and preferences.

Y

Thanks yieldhog for starting this post.
Your portfolio over the last 15 years sounds as though you have done pretty well.
Can I ask if you could give us a breakdown of your portfolio for those of us who
are trying the same approach?
I know it depends on where you are in the investing life but I am pretty close to
your age so I would like to compare ideas.
Many thanks.

bonrepos wrote:Thanks yieldhog for starting this post.
Your portfolio over the last 15 years sounds as though you have done pretty well.
Can I ask if you could give us a breakdown of your portfolio for those of us who
are trying the same approach?
I know it depends on where you are in the investing life but I am pretty close to
your age so I would like to compare ideas.
Many thanks.

Thank you for your comment. I do put my SIPP portfolio on TMF and have done for at least the last couple of years, I will find the links and post later today.

Y

Dod101 wrote:If people would use names of shares in full that would help a lot for my understanding of what is being discussed.

Dod

Or if using an accronym, please can it be the stock exchange ticker code?