Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

Closed-end funds and OEICs
scotia
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3561
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:43 pm
Has thanked: 2371 times
Been thanked: 1943 times

Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590149

Postby scotia » May 19th, 2023, 2:53 pm

Hargreaves Lansdown has issued a critical report to its investors on risk management at the Lindsell Train funds. There is a summary at Trustnet which also contains a statement from a spokesperson at Lindsell Train on how they manage investment risk.
https://www.trustnet.com/news/13378563/lindsell-train-managers-are-not-challenged-enough-warns-hargreaves-lansdown

simoan
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2092
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 9:37 am
Has thanked: 463 times
Been thanked: 1457 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590152

Postby simoan » May 19th, 2023, 3:12 pm

Stable door… Horse… Woodford.
Pot… Kettle… Black.

SPURLEY
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 100
Joined: December 23rd, 2019, 8:53 pm
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590155

Postby SPURLEY » May 19th, 2023, 3:19 pm

Simoan LOL I love reading your posts .

flyer61
Lemon Slice
Posts: 575
Joined: November 11th, 2016, 12:53 pm
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 208 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590228

Postby flyer61 » May 20th, 2023, 8:01 am

it appears the attractive young lady who wrote this is a journalist who happens now to have a job with HL . I am not aware she has any particular financial qualifications.

One has to ask the motivation for it. I'm all for holding fund managers to the fire but has anybody else come out and said they are worried about LT?

Maybe in a 'woke' world she is 'on message' but both Lindsell and Train have a lot tied up personally in their funds. They don't appear to me to be the sort of blokes who would stand on their di$%s.

If you look back through my posts (#53629) you will note I warned about Woodford before the poopoo hit the fan. I do not see the need to warn about LT.

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7534 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590231

Postby Dod101 » May 20th, 2023, 8:23 am

flyer61 wrote:it appears the attractive young lady who wrote this is a journalist who happens now to have a job with HL . I am not aware she has any particular financial qualifications.

One has to ask the motivation for it. I'm all for holding fund managers to the fire but has anybody else come out and said they are worried about LT?

Maybe in a 'woke' world she is 'on message' but both Lindsell and Train have a lot tied up personally in their funds. They don't appear to me to be the sort of blokes who would stand on their di$%s.

If you look back through my posts (#53629) you will note I warned about Woodford before the poopoo hit the fan. I do not see the need to warn about LT.


Using the words 'attractive young lady' surely contravenes some code or other these days and is in any case irrelevant. Better to use 'the author' I would have thought.

Do you have any qualifications to venture an opinion on Messrs Lindsell or Train or is this just an opinion?

I happen to agree from all that I have seen of Mr Train in particular.

Dod

mc2fool
Lemon Half
Posts: 7812
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:24 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 3017 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590239

Postby mc2fool » May 20th, 2023, 9:06 am

flyer61 wrote:it appears the attractive young lady who wrote this is a journalist who happens now to have a job with HL . I am not aware she has any particular financial qualifications.

Ah, playing the (wo)man instead of playing the ball, eh. Young is relative I guess, but I'd suspect that given that she's Head of Investment Analysis & Research at Hargreaves Lansdown at least they think she has some competencies.

The matter of "strong independent oversight and challenge" to investment managers is surely one that's valid for any "star" manager ... but it's also 'cos of those "star" managers that folks (me included) invest in their funds.

And it's not like she's recommending an exodus. “This isn’t a recommendation to make any changes to a portfolio. Investors should make sure any investments match their investment goals, attitude to risk and are held as part of a diversified portfolio,” said Wall.

james51
Posts: 28
Joined: March 21st, 2017, 6:43 pm
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590241

Postby james51 » May 20th, 2023, 9:14 am

I used to watch her as an interviewer in Morningstar videos. They are probably still available.

flyer61
Lemon Slice
Posts: 575
Joined: November 11th, 2016, 12:53 pm
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 208 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590245

Postby flyer61 » May 20th, 2023, 9:27 am

Guilty as charged.....I've hit the man many a time without being anywhere near the ball. I digress, what is the authors 'evidence' of lack of oversight?

Or is the author covering her employer as the recent performance of Messrs Lindsell and Train has not been stellar. The author as part of their remit was told after Woodford this is something you need to be seen to be active in. So they have written something.....great, but from my perspective it smells of tokenism.

For the record I don't regard Lindsell or Train as star managers but rather like Terry Smith they do what they say on the tin. If market sentiments change, fine, Smith, Train, Lindsell can do little about that. I'm interested in quality companies....HL's and it's minnion's are interested in churn and a multitude of things you could invest in. Much of which you would be better off in a tracker.. Maybe the author's audience would be better served writing about misallocation of capital in certain renewable enterprises but I doubt that would be on message. I believe the authors note was not intended for PI's but for HL's own internal box ticking whatever....

SalvorHardin
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2049
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:32 am
Has thanked: 5299 times
Been thanked: 2465 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590248

Postby SalvorHardin » May 20th, 2023, 9:58 am

flyer61 wrote:Guilty as charged.....I've hit the man many a time without being anywhere near the ball. I digress, what is the authors 'evidence' of lack of oversight?

Or is the author covering her employer as the recent performance of Messrs Lindsell and Train has not been stellar. The author as part of their remit was told after Woodford this is something you need to be seen to be active in. So they have written something.....great, but from my perspective it smells of tokenism.

For the record I don't regard Lindsell or Train as star managers but rather like Terry Smith they do what they say on the tin. If market sentiments change, fine, Smith, Train, Lindsell can do little about that. I'm interested in quality companies....HL's and it's minnion's are interested in churn and a multitude of things you could invest in. Much of which you would be better off in a tracker.. Maybe the author's audience would be better served writing about misallocation of capital in certain renewable enterprises but I doubt that would be on message. I believe the authors note was not intended for PI's but for HL's own internal box ticking whatever....

Agreed. There's a lot of benefit to organisations in criticising fund managers who operate "concentrated portfolios" (which Lindsell Train does), if only because it pleases the regulators.

HL's rampant promotion of Woodford will have made them extra careful in how they justify their recommended funds. HL publicly criticising its second biggest shareholder will play well with the regulator.

Berkshire Hathaway has been similarly criticised for many years, often by people who (incorrectly) still believe that it is a closed-end fund.

monabri
Lemon Half
Posts: 8396
Joined: January 7th, 2017, 9:56 am
Has thanked: 1539 times
Been thanked: 3428 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590255

Postby monabri » May 20th, 2023, 11:33 am

?
????

flyer61
Lemon Slice
Posts: 575
Joined: November 11th, 2016, 12:53 pm
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 208 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590268

Postby flyer61 » May 20th, 2023, 12:39 pm

Ah, playing the (wo)man instead of playing the ball, eh. Young is relative I guess, but I'd suspect that given that she's Head of Investment Analysis & Research at Hargreaves Lansdown at least they think she has some competencies.


mc2fool...you are onto it when you mention she must have some competencies. In my day job part of it involves imparting 'competencies' to colleagues of which there are 9. 5 Non technical and 4 Technical....they have a number of performance indicators attached to them. Think of them as the good things that make up success in that competency.

In this case I would say that the individual has been picked for one competency above all else and that is the ability to communicate effectively. Their employer deciding for this particular role that this is the most important aspect. Nothing wrong in that as I believe in my own line of work it is probably the most important as well. However it is a far cry from 'Investment Analysis and Research' as I know it.

In this case I feel I really am very much playing the ball and giving the player a wide berth as I have no idea who is processing this information for them to onward transmit.

I'll stick my neck out and say the standard of analyst at HL is not their strength.

scrumpyjack
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4814
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:15 am
Has thanked: 606 times
Been thanked: 2675 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590271

Postby scrumpyjack » May 20th, 2023, 12:49 pm

Sadly I have always felt that HL's 'advice' was best ignored and to a sceptic (like me) was aimed at ensuring clients invested in things that purely co-incidentally also were beneficial to HL's fee income (eg funds rather than ITs etc).

No doubt this is down to my prejudices as HL are excellent in many other ways!

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7534 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590296

Postby Dod101 » May 20th, 2023, 2:32 pm

flyer61 wrote:Ah, playing the (wo)man instead of playing the ball, eh. Young is relative I guess, but I'd suspect that given that she's Head of Investment Analysis & Research at Hargreaves Lansdown at least they think she has some competencies.


mc2fool...you are onto it when you mention she must have some competencies. In my day job part of it involves imparting 'competencies' to colleagues of which there are 9. 5 Non technical and 4 Technical....they have a number of performance indicators attached to them. Think of them as the good things that make up success in that competency.

In this case I would say that the individual has been picked for one competency above all else and that is the ability to communicate effectively. Their employer deciding for this particular role that this is the most important aspect. Nothing wrong in that as I believe in my own line of work it is probably the most important as well. However it is a far cry from 'Investment Analysis and Research' as I know it.

In this case I feel I really am very much playing the ball and giving the player a wide berth as I have no idea who is processing this information for them to onward transmit.

I'll stick my neck out and say the standard of analyst at HL is not their strength.


But the criticism was of risk management not investment analysis. An investment analyst is not I would have thought the best person to comment on risk management. They are two quite separate disciplines. That would be the basis of any criticism that I would make.

However like scrumpyjack I simply ignore the comments anyway, as I do from all commentators.

Dod

flyer61
Lemon Slice
Posts: 575
Joined: November 11th, 2016, 12:53 pm
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 208 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590300

Postby flyer61 » May 20th, 2023, 2:56 pm

Fair point Dod, but the author is neither an investment analyst or risk manager.....

dundas666
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 176
Joined: December 27th, 2019, 2:53 pm
Has thanked: 165 times
Been thanked: 99 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590306

Postby dundas666 » May 20th, 2023, 3:14 pm

Sounds like she's more of an investment influencer :lol:

Dod101
The full Lemon
Posts: 16629
Joined: October 10th, 2017, 11:33 am
Has thanked: 4343 times
Been thanked: 7534 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590311

Postby Dod101 » May 20th, 2023, 3:45 pm

The author of the report keeps referring to 'we' so I doubt very much that she personally did the investigation anyway. She seems to be simply commenting on their findings. Lindsell Train has also commented, in response I suppose, that they are strengthening their risk management capabilities. I do not think it is a bad thing that any investment manager be challenged. I think what may be the problem is that HL themselves clearly fell down badly with Woodford and it now seems a bit rich for them to feel that they have the right to comment on others.

The danger with Woodford was that he achieved a sort of personal cult status and whatever he did was hardly ever challenged because of his record. Lindsell Train has never quite achieved that status and in any case as far as I know are fairly conservative with their choice of investments, although I can only speak for Finsbury Growth and Income.

Dod

mc2fool
Lemon Half
Posts: 7812
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:24 am
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 3017 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590322

Postby mc2fool » May 20th, 2023, 5:02 pm

Dod101 wrote:The author of the report keeps referring to 'we' so I doubt very much that she personally did the investigation anyway. She seems to be simply commenting on their findings. Lindsell Train has also commented, in response I suppose, that they are strengthening their risk management capabilities. I do not think it is a bad thing that any investment manager be challenged.

Indeed, and what a curious thread. I have no idea why flyer61 is (apparently) so het up about this, nor why he is (apparently) keen to try and discredit the author.

For those interested in reading the actual update it's at https://www.hl.co.uk/funds/research-and-news/fund-notifications/2023/lindsell-train-funds-investment-risk-update.

Seems straightforward enough to me: after HL looking into it (see first paragraph) they're concluded that, to read between the lines and paraphrase, Train, Lindsell & Bullock are largely left to get on with it without anyone within LT challenging them. Sounds probably right to me.

She also says, "This is not a judgement on the investment capabilities of the fund managers at Lindsell Train. Nick Train, Michael Lindsell, James Bullock and the rest of the investment team are patient, long-term investors and have established a repeatable investment process across the funds they manage, hunting for high quality companies. This is an approach which has served investors very well over the long term", which also sounds about right to me. ;)

Pendrainllwyn
Lemon Slice
Posts: 304
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:53 pm
Has thanked: 162 times
Been thanked: 200 times

Re: Hargreaves Lansdown Report On Risk Management at Lindsell Train

#590354

Postby Pendrainllwyn » May 21st, 2023, 4:13 am

The article suggests that Investment firm Lindsell Train does not have sufficient risk management in place and managers Nick Train, Michael Lindsell and James Bullock are not tested enough on their decisions.

I confess the same can be said of the manager of Pendrainllwyn's small portfolio :)

SalvorHardin wrote:Berkshire Hathaway has been similarly criticised for many years
Yes, Warren Buffett doesn't see the need for independent risk oversight. In his 2022 letter to Berkshire Hathaway shareholders he wrote "Our CEO will always be the Chief Risk Officer – a task it is irresponsible to delegate." He's done OK but then he has always had the confidence to do things his way and not follow the crowd.

I am sure there are those who will feel assured knowing there is a framework in place for independent oversight but whether Nick Train & Co will change their long established investment philosophy or holdings because of it is far less clear.

FWIW I have a small holding in Lindsell Train Investment Trust which hasn't served me well so far but I am happy to hold and would consider adding to it or buying Finsbury Growth & Income Trust even without additional risk management.

Pendrainllwyn


Return to “Investment Trusts and Unit Trusts”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests