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HFEL

Closed-end funds and OEICs
dundas666
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Re: HFEL

#431439

Postby dundas666 » July 30th, 2021, 12:07 pm

Dod101 wrote:
SalvorHardin wrote:For me Henderson Far East Income (HFEL) does what it says on the tin. It produces a very high yield, currently 7.2%, in part by selling options but mostly by holding a lot in high yieldering sectors, notably banking, mining and telecoms. It provides massive diversification away from the UK, Europe and America, whilst steadily increasing its dividend. Don't invest in it for capital growth though.

What about buying HFEL and JAGI for a 5.6% yield? Or HFEL in combination with another fund(s)?


What bothers me about HFEL is modest capital growth would be fine but a capital loss of around 10% over the last 5 years is not. Admittedly the current 7.5% yield probably more than makes up for that but even so I do not like that and it reduces the total return somewhat.

Take say Schroder Oriental Income. It has a modest yield of about 3.8% but a 22% capital growth over the same 5 years. I am not clever enough to work out a total return but it cannot be far off the same as HFEL. The one trust is more than keeping up with inflation; the other is losing its real value.

I think I may cut my HFEL holding and buy some Schroder Oriental Income but am in many ways not being very decisive in anything at the moment.

Dod


A 22% capital growth over 5 years equates to just over 4% per year, so a TR of 7.8% for SOI.

A 10% capital loss over 5 years equates to around 2% pa, so a TR of 5.5% for HFEL.

5 year dividend growth is 3.7% for HFEL and 5.2% for SOI.

monabri
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Re: HFEL

#431443

Postby monabri » July 30th, 2021, 12:19 pm

Dod101 wrote:Take say Schroder Oriental Income. It has a modest yield of about 3.8% but a 22% capital growth over the same 5 years. I am not clever enough to work out a total return but it cannot be far off the same as HFEL.
Dod


You don't need to do any sums...Hargreaves will do it for you!

Click on the link, and change items 1 to 5 (they're self-explanatory).

https://www.hl.co.uk/funds/fund-discoun ... ion/charts

This image produced using the free tools at HL - link as above.

Image

Then remove any curves you don't want to include by clicking on the small grey box and either hiding or removing the curve. There is a limit of 7 curves. The TR values are tabulated below the curves.

edit: I might as well do the comparison "now I'm here"....

(Graphs and table from HL - link as above)

Image



Image

monabri
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Re: HFEL

#431447

Postby monabri » July 30th, 2021, 12:25 pm

Interesting that the divergence in Total Return performance between HFEL and SOI are fairly recent, starting Q4 2020. I wonder why?

Dod101
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Re: HFEL

#431466

Postby Dod101 » July 30th, 2021, 1:04 pm

monabri wrote:Interesting that the divergence in Total Return performance between HFEL and SOI are fairly recent, starting Q4 2020. I wonder why?


The previous investment manager retired in early 2021 and it may be that the new chap has a slightly different emphasis. Interesting though about your numbers. Thanks for doing that. It puts Schroder Oriental somewhat ahead of HFEL and of course over a longer period that would only become more pronounced.

Dod

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Re: HFEL

#431554

Postby 88V8 » July 30th, 2021, 6:43 pm

Dod101 wrote:The previous investment manager retired in early 2021 and it may be that the new chap has a slightly different emphasis.

This is a thing about ITs. One thinks of them as monolithic and unchanging, BoD steady as she goes, but a change of key personnel and it all goes to pot.
So they're not really fire-and-forget, any more than individual HYP shares.

I have a large holding in HFEL, and although I don't 'do' TR, one cannot help noticing that all my other ITs are up, whereas HFEL is not.

I am nervous about China as a place to invest which is why I have wrapped myself in HFEL rather than more China-centric options. Perhaps I should have stuck to the UK, at least I can see what is going on here...........

V8

Dod101
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Re: HFEL

#438591

Postby Dod101 » August 31st, 2021, 9:59 am

Today happens to be year end for HFEL. The price today is £3.01. I bought in August 2018 at £3.675. I have just done my numbers. I show a loss of £5,255 in capital and have received dividends of £5,875, so I am very modestly up in terms of cash, but I am sure I am down in real terms. Why am I doing this? I know anyone can work out the value of my holding but am not concerned. I am though, concerned about the total return which has been miniscule over the last three years. It is for the chop.

Dod

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Re: HFEL

#438622

Postby absolutezero » August 31st, 2021, 12:02 pm

Dod101 wrote:Today happens to be year end for HFEL. The price today is £3.01. I bought in August 2018 at £3.675. I have just done my numbers. I show a loss of £5,255 in capital and have received dividends of £5,875, so I am very modestly up in terms of cash, but I am sure I am down in real terms. Why am I doing this? I know anyone can work out the value of my holding but am not concerned. I am though, concerned about the total return which has been miniscule over the last three years. It is for the chop.

Dod

An argument for a low cost tracker?
You can't BEAT the market, so BE the market.

monabri
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Re: HFEL

#438625

Postby monabri » August 31st, 2021, 12:04 pm

I first bought shares in HFEL in September 17 and have topped up at various points in time since.

[1] average share price being 328p.

[2] The overall XIRR figure for the period is a miserable +1.2% (but it is at least a positive value!) - In real terms, the value has decreased due to inflation. ​

[3] Current Value / Investment amount = 91 % (i.e. for every £100 invested, it is currently worth £91 - based on 300p per share).

[4] Dividends paid / Investment amount = 14%

The XIRR figure tells the tale - it is marking time at best. I like the income from HFEL but I feel it is slowly paying me back my money... The question would be - where to redeploy?

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Re: HFEL

#438630

Postby absolutezero » August 31st, 2021, 12:13 pm

monabri wrote:I first bought shares in HFEL in September 17 and have topped up at various points in time since.

[1] average share price being 328p.

[2] The overall XIRR figure for the period is a miserable +1.2% (but it is at least a positive value!) - In real terms, the value has decreased due to inflation. ​

[3] Current Value / Investment amount = 91 % (i.e. for every £100 invested, it is currently worth £91 - based on 300p per share).

[4] Dividends paid / Investment amount = 14%

The XIRR figure tells the tale - it is marking time at best. I like the income from HFEL but I feel it is slowly paying me back my money... The question would be - where to redeploy?

All dividend paying shares are paying you back your money though.
Their value drops by the dividend amount on XD day. (Plus market movements which would happen with or without XD day).
A 100p share pays you 5p. On XD day you have 95p share and 5p in cash = 100p.
All that's happened is it's paid you 5p of your own money.

Dod101
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Re: HFEL

#438632

Postby Dod101 » August 31st, 2021, 12:24 pm

monabri wrote:I first bought shares in HFEL in September 17 and have topped up at various points in time since.

[1] average share price being 328p.

[2] The overall XIRR figure for the period is a miserable +1.2% (but it is at least a positive value!) - In real terms, the value has decreased due to inflation. ​

[3] Current Value / Investment amount = 91 % (i.e. for every £100 invested, it is currently worth £91 - based on 300p per share).

[4] Dividends paid / Investment amount = 14%

The XIRR figure tells the tale - it is marking time at best. I like the income from HFEL but I feel it is slowly paying me back my money... The question would be - where to redeploy?


Absolute zero has a point, in fact two points, one is to buy a tracker, and the other is about dividends giving you your own money. The latter is true up to a point I suppose, but that is fundamentally the point about investing, to me anyway. I am basically an income investor and whether I take that income via a dividend or by selling some non yielding shares, I am getting my own money back. I am old fashioned though and like to leave the capital alone but extract some of the income generated and use that as income for me to spend.

I am redeploying the proceeds from HFEL in Schroder Oriental Income. Lower yield but they have produced some capital growth to supplement that lower income , not to detract from it. Furthermore, I prefer them as in investment house.

Dod

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Re: HFEL

#438639

Postby airbus330 » August 31st, 2021, 12:39 pm

A lot of exposure to Taiwan in the Schroders portfolio. (HFEL has less) which could be a risk if China rattles its sabre a bit more loudly over the coming months.

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Re: HFEL

#438646

Postby Dod101 » August 31st, 2021, 12:58 pm

airbus330 wrote:A lot of exposure to Taiwan in the Schroders portfolio. (HFEL has less) which could be a risk if China rattles its sabre a bit more loudly over the coming months.


Yes but I will trust Schroders to adjust that if they see a real threat. The entire region has a geopolitical threat which I am prepared to live with. The other factors are compelling for me.

Dod

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Re: HFEL

#438660

Postby Arborbridge » August 31st, 2021, 1:43 pm

I went to compare HFEL with SOI on the AIC site, and they seem to have altered the "interactive chart" so one can no longer do this. There was a box in which one could type another instrument name with which to compare.

Am I missing something? Why would they take this facility away - or did I imagine it was there and it never was?!

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Re: HFEL

#438667

Postby monabri » August 31st, 2021, 2:17 pm

Until Q4 2020, not much to chose from ...

Graph produced using Hargreaves Lansdowne's comparator tool

https://www.hl.co.uk/funds/fund-discoun ... ion/charts

Image

If Total Return is key, then a global tracker has outshone both ( Vanguard's VWRL).

Image

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Re: HFEL

#438672

Postby monabri » August 31st, 2021, 2:35 pm

I logged into the AIC and created a watchlist which could then be displayed. There are various things that can be displayed by ticking radio buttons.

However, as the comparison is of only two entities, then maybe a pen and paper is just as easy selecting each one in turn ?

source - AIC website here https://www.theaic.co.uk

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Re: HFEL

#438679

Postby mc2fool » August 31st, 2021, 3:12 pm

Arborbridge wrote:I went to compare HFEL with SOI on the AIC site, and they seem to have altered the "interactive chart" so one can no longer do this. There was a box in which one could type another instrument name with which to compare.

Am I missing something? Why would they take this facility away - or did I imagine it was there and it never was?!

Well, you did miss something ... see the AIC website performance section thread at viewtopic.php?p=432500#p432500.

They did remove the ability to compare with OEICs/UTs, but not with other ITs. Just type SOI into the (greyish text on greyish background, not very clever) "Add Comparison" field, just below Add sector average -- and wait (and wait) for it to pop up "Schroder Oriental Income", which you can then click on.

Image
https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/0P00008ZSY/performance

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Re: HFEL

#438684

Postby Arborbridge » August 31st, 2021, 3:36 pm

mc2fool wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:I went to compare HFEL with SOI on the AIC site, and they seem to have altered the "interactive chart" so one can no longer do this. There was a box in which one could type another instrument name with which to compare.

Am I missing something? Why would they take this facility away - or did I imagine it was there and it never was?!

Well, you did miss something ... see the AIC website performance section thread at viewtopic.php?p=432500#p432500.

They did remove the ability to compare with OEICs/UTs, but not with other ITs. Just type SOI into the (greyish text on greyish background, not very clever) "Add Comparison" field, just below Add sector average -- and wait (and wait) for it to pop up "Schroder Oriental Income", which you can then click on.



Thanks mc2fool. That is a truly unhelpful change: anyone new coming to it probably wouldn't even know to look for it. Even after you showed me, I couldn't see the grey box until I'd clicked on the search symbol first, and even then I can't read the wording in the box until I enlarge the webpage grossly.
It makes you wonder who they ask to test these changes - or why they even bothered. It was perfectly clear previously and obvious what one should do.

Arb.

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Re: HFEL

#438687

Postby Arborbridge » August 31st, 2021, 3:46 pm

Arborbridge wrote:Thanks mc2fool. That is a truly unhelpful change: anyone new coming to it probably wouldn't even know to look for it. Even after you showed me, I couldn't see the grey box until I'd clicked on the search symbol first, and even then I can't read the wording in the box until I enlarge the webpage grossly.
It makes you wonder who they ask to test these changes - or why they even bothered. It was perfectly clear previously and obvious what one should do.

Arb.


I've also realised that part of the problem is the viewing setting. Given a lower "magnification" the grey bar appears for me, and so too do the grey boxes to alter the dates. All I had originally was a choice of years up to "max".

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Re: HFEL

#438694

Postby Dod101 » August 31st, 2021, 3:55 pm

The point though is that monabri has given us the info, thanks monabri. I actually had two holdings of HFEL, the main one in my ISA. I forgot though that I had another smaller holding in my SIPP so in the event I will leave the one in the SIPP as it will give me a direct comparison, the one with the other.

Dod

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Re: HFEL

#438700

Postby OllyDrod » August 31st, 2021, 4:06 pm

Dod101 wrote:Today happens to be year end for HFEL. The price today is £3.01. I bought in August 2018 at £3.675. I have just done my numbers. I show a loss of £5,255 in capital and have received dividends of £5,875, so I am very modestly up in terms of cash, but I am sure I am down in real terms. Why am I doing this? I know anyone can work out the value of my holding but am not concerned. I am though, concerned about the total return which has been miniscule over the last three years. It is for the chop.

Dod


I’m in more or less the same boat - having also bought in summer 2018 at £3.48. 3 years might be a bit short to assess the performance, but the HFEL price has been on the slide since June 2019 and hasn’t recovered post-pandemic. I don’t see any catalyst for change so will be following suit and take a look at Schroeder’s Oriental. Any other suggestions?
- OllyDrod


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