Scottish Investment Trust

[Dod101]

This is an unexceptional IT based in Edinburgh. In fact its offices are close by those of Personal Assets Trust. It is one of the increasingly rare self managed trusts and it has just announced that it is seeking interest from external managers for the first time in its 133 year history. It is a small trust (only about £650,000 of assets) and apart from sentiment I think it ought to seek to merge with another as there are still too many trusts in the market place. Sadly it would not be missed. For the last 5 years or so it has been managed as a contrarian trust with a lack of any great success, as indeed has been its history for a long while.

I used to see it as a smaller version of the Alliance but Alliance has long since proved the superior trust.

Why would anyone hold T? I did for some years but gave up on it.

Dod

[LittleDorrit]

Do you mean The Scottish Investment Trust, the best performing trust in the global sector this year to date.
Keystone was a similar bar bell trust with just under 20% in gold miners that also changed managers earlier this year. Initially the excesive 18% discount closed, but performance has now plunged to the bottom of the tables.
Perhaps contrarian is now flavour of the month?

ps. Assets are £650m.

[Dod101]

Do you mean The Scottish Investment Trust, the best performing trust in the global sector this year to date.
Keystone was a similar bar bell trust with just under 20% in gold miners that also changed managers earlier this year. Initially the excesive 18% discount closed, but performance has now plunged to the bottom of the tables.
Perhaps contrarian is now flavour of the month?

ps. Assets are £650m.

Sorry, I meant £650 million not thousands of course. I think the reason that SIT has done quite well in the last few months is the recovery of HYP like shares in the UK. Five months is short termism or what?

The RNS tells us that over the five year period since the current manager took over, they are well behind the sterling total return of the MSCI All World Index. It does not have a formal benchmark.

I hope that it does not go to Baillie Gifford again, otherwise we will have them pretty well running all the Edinburgh ITs! I still think that a merger of some sort would probably be the best solution.

Dod

[Itsallaguess]

Do you mean The Scottish Investment Trust, the best performing trust in the global sector this year to date.
Keystone was a similar bar bell trust with just under 20% in gold miners that also changed managers earlier this year. Initially the excesive 18% discount closed, but performance has now plunged to the bottom of the tables.
Perhaps contrarian is now flavour of the month?

ps. Assets are £650m.

Sorry, I meant £650 million not thousands of course. I think the reason that SIT has done quite well in the last few months is the recovery of HYP like shares in the UK. Five months is short termism or what?

The RNS tells us that over the five year period since the current manager took over, they are well behind the sterling total return of the MSCI All World Index. It does not have a formal benchmark.

I hope that it does not go to Baillie Gifford again, otherwise we will have them pretty well running all the Edinburgh ITs! I still think that a merger of some sort would probably be the best solution.

This thread is getting more confusing by the post...

Dod - do you mean SCIN (Scottish Investment Trust) - https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/0P00008ZQ6

I think you do, because this is the recent RNS announcement that I think you're referring to -

Review of Investment Management Arrangements -

The Board invites proposals from established fund management groups, with the experience of managing listed closed-ended funds, designed to deliver, over the longer term, above index returns through a diversified global portfolio of attractively valued companies with good earnings prospects and sustainable dividend growth.

https://www.investegate.co.uk/scot.inv.trust-plc--scin-/rns/review-of-investment-management-arrangements/202106020700034935A/

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[OllyDrod]

The manager of Scottish, Alasdair McKinnon, was recently interviewed on the ii Funds Fan podcast. Short, but interesting interview in which he welcomes the performance review, briefly explains his philosophy and offers some thoughts on inflation. Worth a listen: https://www.ii.co.uk/ii-podcasts#funds-fan

- OllyDrod

[scotia]

Scottish Investment Trust (SCIN) - total returns over 1, 3 and 5 years are 11.2%, 4.8% and 56.8%
Alliance Trust (ATST) - total returns over 1, 3 and 5 years are 25.4%, 37.6%, 108.8%
Vanguard World Index Tracker (VWRL) - total returns over 1, 3 and 5 years are 19.9%, 37%, 96.5%
Ok - SCIN has very recently put a spurt on, but its a long way short of catching up with a world tracker
So I agree with Dod's sentiments, and fully understand why the board members are thinking about new management

[Dod101]

Do you mean The Scottish Investment Trust, the best performing trust in the global sector this year to date.
Keystone was a similar bar bell trust with just under 20% in gold miners that also changed managers earlier this year. Initially the excesive 18% discount closed, but performance has now plunged to the bottom of the tables.
Perhaps contrarian is now flavour of the month?

ps. Assets are £650m.

Sorry, I meant £650 million not thousands of course. I think the reason that SIT has done quite well in the last few months is the recovery of HYP like shares in the UK. Five months is short termism or what?

The RNS tells us that over the five year period since the current manager took over, they are well behind the sterling total return of the MSCI All World Index. It does not have a formal benchmark.

I hope that it does not go to Baillie Gifford again, otherwise we will have them pretty well running all the Edinburgh ITs! I still think that a merger of some sort would probably be the best solution.

This thread is getting more confusing by the post...

Dod - do you mean SCIN (Scottish Investment Trust) - https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/0P00008ZQ6

I think you do, because this is the recent RNS announcement that I think you're referring to -

Review of Investment Management Arrangements -

The Board invites proposals from established fund management groups, with the experience of managing listed closed-ended funds, designed to deliver, over the longer term, above index returns through a diversified global portfolio of attractively valued companies with good earnings prospects and sustainable dividend growth.

https://www.investegate.co.uk/scot.inv.trust-plc--scin-/rns/review-of-investment-management-arrangements/202106020700034935A/

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I do not understand the confusion. I missed 'The' from the title of the post and said £650,000 rather than £650 million (which I corrected and apologised for) Otoh I did go on to write about 'this investment trust'. I should have thought that that made it fairly obvious what I was writing about. Otherwise what confusion? Confusion is obviously in the eye of the beholder. I will try to be more accurate next time in order to accommodate those of a more pedantic frame of mind.

Dod

[Dod101]

Scottish Investment Trust (SCIN) - total returns over 1, 3 and 5 years are 11.2%, 4.8% and 56.8%
Alliance Trust (ATST) - total returns over 1, 3 and 5 years are 25.4%, 37.6%, 108.8%
Vanguard World Index Tracker (VWRL) - total returns over 1, 3 and 5 years are 19.9%, 37%, 96.5%
Ok - SCIN has very recently put a spurt on, but its a long way short of catching up with a world tracker
So I agree with Dod's sentiments, and fully understand why the board members are thinking about new management

Thanks Scotia. I see that one of the Directors nowadays is Neil Rogan. He is chairman of Murray Income and has experience of taking over another trust in that Murray Income recently acquired the assets of Perpetual Income and Growth. I do not imagine that Murray Income would be a contender but either a takeover or a simple liquidation would seem to be a sensible solution. Of course Directors do not like to vote themselves out of a job so they may just appoint anew manager.

BTW these are interesting figures from Alliance. This is still an underrated trust I think, influenced by the awful decade they had of the first years of this century under the Chairmanship of Lesley Knox, the most useless chairman I have ever known.

Dod

[LittleDorrit]

Dod: Absolutely no confusion for me and thanks for starting the thread.

[OllyDrod]

Scottish Investment Trust (SCIN) - total returns over 1, 3 and 5 years are 11.2%, 4.8% and 56.8%
Alliance Trust (ATST) - total returns over 1, 3 and 5 years are 25.4%, 37.6%, 108.8%
Vanguard World Index Tracker (VWRL) - total returns over 1, 3 and 5 years are 19.9%, 37%, 96.5%
Ok - SCIN has very recently put a spurt on, but its a long way short of catching up with a world tracker
So I agree with Dod's sentiments, and fully understand why the board members are thinking about new management

Thanks Scotia. I see that one of the Directors nowadays is Neil Rogan. He is chairman of Murray Income and has experience of taking over another trust in that Murray Income recently acquired the assets of Perpetual Income and Growth. I do not imagine that Murray Income would be a contender but either a takeover or a simple liquidation would seem to be a sensible solution. Of course Directors do not like to vote themselves out of a job so they may just appoint anew manager.

BTW these are interesting figures from Alliance. This is still an underrated trust I think, influenced by the awful decade they had of the first years of this century under the Chairmanship of Lesley Knox, the most useless chairman I have ever known.

Dod

I'll be interested to see if they do appoint a new manager. The consultants appointed to head the review (Stanhope) are the same bunch who were brought in to Temple Bar relatively recently, where they recommended continuation with RWC. There are differences between TMPL and SCIN but both are 'deep value' trusts which have (perhaps had, in the case of TMPL - given this year) a track record of under-performance. I've not read anything suggesting the Board are open to a merger; the trust is clearly big enough to stand on its own two feet (bigger than, for example, Lindsell Train, Brunner, Mid Wynd and Martin Currie Global in the same sector) and whilst the discount of ~10% is stubborn and at the higher end of the sector, it's hardly egregious.
- OllyDrod

[swill453]

Sorry, I meant £650 million not thousands of course. I think the reason that SIT ...

This thread is getting more confusing by the post...

I do not understand the confusion. I missed 'The' from the title of the post and said £650,000 rather than £650 million (which I corrected and apologised for) Otoh I did go on to write about 'this investment trust'. I should have thought that that made it fairly obvious what I was writing about. Otherwise what confusion?

I think the further confusion was you abbreviating it to SIT rather than SCIN. It threw me for a bit.

Scott.

[monabri]

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I do not understand the confusion. I missed 'The' from the title of the post and said £650,000 rather than £650 million (which I corrected and apologised for) Otoh I did go on to write about 'this investment trust'. I should have thought that that made it fairly obvious what I was writing about. Otherwise what confusion? Confusion is obviously in the eye of the beholder. I will try to be more accurate next time in order to accommodate those of a more pedantic frame of mind.

Dod

I'm guessing that the use of "SIT" rather than "SCIN" is the confusion. It was clear in the thread title that was (The) Scottish Investment Trust. Now if this was the HYP P board the discussion would probably have moved on to something else!

Looking at the holdings, there's not much that excites me...BT as 4th biggest holding, Oil companies, Banco Santander, Cheesecake factory ( I guess they make ...).
https://thescottish.co.uk/portfolio-per ... r-holdings

[monabri]

SCIN is classed by the AIC as " Global " so perhaps we could compare with a global fund, Vanguard's VWRL.

Conclusion: the manager is adding no value over the last 5 years....

From Hargreaves Lansdowne tool here, graph plotted"
https://www.hl.co.uk/funds/fund-discoun ... ion/charts



Is the conclusion "harsh, but fair?"

[Itsallaguess]

This thread is getting more confusing by the post...

I do not understand the confusion.

I think the further confusion was you abbreviating it to SIT rather than SCIN. It threw me for a bit.

Thanks Scott, that was the bit that threw me and warranted clearing up...

I know some people have an aversion for EPIC's, but there's a time and place where using one removes any doubt whatsoever as to just which investment people might be talking about...

Anyway, I'm glad it's now sorted out, so apologies for temporarily derailing an interesting topic.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Dod101]

This thread is getting more confusing by the post...

I do not understand the confusion. I missed 'The' from the title of the post and said £650,000 rather than £650 million (which I corrected and apologised for) Otoh I did go on to write about 'this investment trust'. I should have thought that that made it fairly obvious what I was writing about. Otherwise what confusion?

I think the further confusion was you abbreviating it to SIT rather than SCIN. It threw me for a bit.

Scott.

OK If that is the confusion I am very sorry. I never use the EPIC abbreviations and in fact recognise very few when they are used. SIT to my simple mind means Scottish Investment Trust. Would still have thought that the title made it obvious. I accept that not everyone will be able to visualise their offices in Albyn Place Edinburgh.

Amazing how bound up in inconsequentials we can be rather than the substance of the commments.

Dod

[Dod101]

I do not understand the confusion.

I think the further confusion was you abbreviating it to SIT rather than SCIN. It threw me for a bit.

Thanks Scott, that was the bit that threw me and warranted clearing up...

I know some people have an aversion for EPIC's, but there's a time and place where using one removes any doubt whatsoever as to just which investment people might be talking about...

Anyway, I'm glad it's now sorted out, so apologies for temporarily derailing an interesting topic.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

I am not out to pick an argument but is SIT an EPIC for any share? If so I cannot find it. If not then it follows that I could not be referring to anything other than the title of the thread.

Dod

[Itsallaguess]

I am not out to pick an argument but is SIT an EPIC for any share?

Dod, my confusion has been cleared up, so I really don't think it's worth derailing the thread any further on this particular subject, and I apologise for doing so already to the extent that it already has...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Dod101]

Scottish Investment Trust (SCIN) - total returns over 1, 3 and 5 years are 11.2%, 4.8% and 56.8%
Alliance Trust (ATST) - total returns over 1, 3 and 5 years are 25.4%, 37.6%, 108.8%
Vanguard World Index Tracker (VWRL) - total returns over 1, 3 and 5 years are 19.9%, 37%, 96.5%
Ok - SCIN has very recently put a spurt on, but its a long way short of catching up with a world tracker
So I agree with Dod's sentiments, and fully understand why the board members are thinking about new management

Thanks Scotia. I see that one of the Directors nowadays is Neil Rogan. He is chairman of Murray Income and has experience of taking over another trust in that Murray Income recently acquired the assets of Perpetual Income and Growth. I do not imagine that Murray Income would be a contender but either a takeover or a simple liquidation would seem to be a sensible solution. Of course Directors do not like to vote themselves out of a job so they may just appoint anew manager.

BTW these are interesting figures from Alliance. This is still an underrated trust I think, influenced by the awful decade they had of the first years of this century under the Chairmanship of Lesley Knox, the most useless chairman I have ever known.

Dod

I'll be interested to see if they do appoint a new manager. The consultants appointed to head the review (Stanhope) are the same bunch who were brought in to Temple Bar relatively recently, where they recommended continuation with RWC. There are differences between TMPL and SCIN but both are 'deep value' trusts which have (perhaps had, in the case of TMPL - given this year) a track record of under-performance. I've not read anything suggesting the Board are open to a merger; the trust is clearly big enough to stand on its own two feet (bigger than, for example, Lindsell Train, Brunner, Mid Wynd and Martin Currie Global in the same sector) and whilst the discount of ~10% is stubborn and at the higher end of the sector, it's hardly egregious.
- OllyDrod

Having had an exchange re a misunderstanding of my shorthand earlier in this thread, I do not want to be accused of being pedantic but just as a matter of fact, Stanhope did not recommend the 'continuation with RWC' as managers of Temple Bar, they recommended the replacement of Ninety One Fund Managers with RWC.

Dod

[monabri]

https://www.ii.co.uk/analysis-commentar ... t-ii520409

"Alasdair McKinnon of the Scottish Investment Trust Ord SCIN joins the podcast. In the interview, the fund manager explains why he likes the outlook for gold, and why the trust is ignoring overlooked, over-hyped areas of the market. He also responds to this week's announcement of a review of the management arrangements for the trust."

I believe he comes in at 7mins 43sec.

( I've not listened to the podcast ).

[LittleDorrit]

"the manager is adding no value over the last 5 years...." is an irrefutable fact and requires no further discussion.

The conclusion for the next five years may however be slightly different. Jeremy Grantham has one point of view and Baillie Gifford another. My own portfolio currently suggests a mild bias towards Mr Grantham's point of view.

For the last two decades I have also held an aversion to trusts with long term debenture gearing. A number of other trusts have however recently restructured their borrowings, no matter how painful this proves to be in the short term. This would seem to be a prerequisite of fundamental change or liquidation.

The current discount is so so. Other than that I would have no problem holding the Scottish portfolio.