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Essential Investment Trusts

Closed-end funds and OEICs
absolutezero
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#428757

Postby absolutezero » July 19th, 2021, 12:19 pm

mc2fool wrote:
absolutezero wrote:Rather a condescending post, don't you think?
Anyone who starts with 'um, ok' and has liberal use of sarky emojis is not trying to be helpful...

My apologies if it came across as such, it wasn't intended to, and the use of 'um, ok' and the confused emojis were meant to reflect my confusion at what seemed to be inconsistencies in your post that I was replying to.

The rest of the happy, smile and wink emojis were meant in a genuine and warm way, as were the I thought constructive hints in that paragraph, and not meant to be sarcastic or condescending at all. Sorry it it all came across otherwise. :(

Alright. I was probably being a bit over sensitive.
Tone in the mind of the reader after all.

Your comments, though, are food for thought and perhaps I could have expressed my compartmentalised portfolio in my original post.

What are your thoughts on decent ITs to buy?

absolutezero
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#428759

Postby absolutezero » July 19th, 2021, 12:22 pm

dundas666 wrote:Here's mine, selected on the basis that others might not mention them!:

Growth:
Worldwide Healthcare (WWH) - 10 year average TR = 20% pa

Income:
European Assets Trust (EAT) - 10 year average TR = 13% pa, dividend policy of 6% of NAV

Other/Interesting/Free Choice:
International Biotechnology Trust (IBT) - 10 year average TR = 18% pa, dividend policy of 4% of NAV

Thank you for these.
Doesn't EAT attract Dutch withholding tax on dividends? I'm sire I saw that on another discussion.
How does that tend to affect your view of it?

Healthcare and biotech are likely to be very investable areas, I feel. With the ageing population and the likes of mRNA technology.

Dod101
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#428761

Postby Dod101 » July 19th, 2021, 12:28 pm

absolutezero wrote:
dundas666 wrote:Here's mine, selected on the basis that others might not mention them!:

Growth:
Worldwide Healthcare (WWH) - 10 year average TR = 20% pa

Income:
European Assets Trust (EAT) - 10 year average TR = 13% pa, dividend policy of 6% of NAV

Other/Interesting/Free Choice:
International Biotechnology Trust (IBT) - 10 year average TR = 18% pa, dividend policy of 4% of NAV

Thank you for these.
Doesn't EAT attract Dutch withholding tax on dividends? I'm sire I saw that on another discussion.
How does that tend to affect your view of it?

Healthcare and biotech are likely to be very investable areas, I feel. With the ageing population and the likes of mRNA technology.


As can be inferred from my choices I am not too enthused about being too specialised in my choice of ITs, certainly if we are talking about only three choices and Worlwide Healthcare and International Biotech sound really quite similar as well, but who knows?

Dod

mc2fool
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#428765

Postby mc2fool » July 19th, 2021, 12:39 pm

absolutezero wrote:Alright. I was probably being a bit over sensitive.
Tone in the mind of the reader after all.

Your comments, though, are food for thought and perhaps I could have expressed my compartmentalised portfolio in my original post.

What are your thoughts on decent ITs to buy?

S'ok, it's often difficult to get one's underlying intentions across in posts, and emojis can backfire...

On "essential" ITs to buy, I'd ask, for what purpose? You've now explained a bit about your compartmentalisation but not really about your selection goals.

E.g. I have a big-ish section of my portfolio dedicated to "the wealth preservers", Capital Gearing (CGT), Ruffer (RICA), Personal Assets (PNL), and RIT Capital Partners (RCP). I see there's been a mention of CGT, but does the idea of wealth preservers fit with your goals, or is your reaction, "Wealth preservers?!? Heck no, I want to go for broke!"

I also have large chunks in global trackers and then some bunches of ITs that tilt the portfolio a bit to the east and a bit to smaller companies.

everhopeful
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#428792

Postby everhopeful » July 19th, 2021, 2:13 pm

Shires Income seldom gets a mention. It is one of my largest IT holdings. I like its exposure to preference shares and its yield and capital performance are better than Murray Income and capital performance much better than CTY. I too am a fan of Worldwide Healthcare which is also one of my biggest holdings.

DavidM13
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#428802

Postby DavidM13 » July 19th, 2021, 2:53 pm

mc2fool wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
mc2fool wrote:What is your reason for choosing City of London given that it most likely has very similar holdings to those you already have in your "HYP style portfolio"?


And you think that UK listed shares are 'old economy' companies and the London Stock Exchange is not where the growth is going to be but one of your IT choices, CTY, is 87% in UK listed shares and if you look at their top ten holdings they're pretty much all 'old economy' companies. :?

Moving from HYP to ITs, from an income focus to total return, and from a UK focus to more international diversification are all fair enough goals, but your choices don't quite seem to be consistent with all of them. :D

)


To be fair, although CTY is 88% UK listed shares the UK revenue exposure of the underlying companies is only 38%.

mc2fool
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#428806

Postby mc2fool » July 19th, 2021, 3:08 pm

DavidM13 wrote:
mc2fool wrote:And you think that UK listed shares are 'old economy' companies and the London Stock Exchange is not where the growth is going to be but one of your IT choices, CTY, is 87% in UK listed shares and if you look at their top ten holdings they're pretty much all 'old economy' companies. :?

To be fair, although CTY is 88% UK listed shares the UK revenue exposure of the underlying companies is only 38%.

Yes, but that's also true of HYP style portfolios and, indeed, any FTSE 100 companies heavy portfolio. It is, supposedly, one of the attractions of UK listed megacaps. :D

Interesting statistic you've managed to pop up with there though. At risk of diverting the thread, is this something that we the public can (or soon will be able to) get from the AIC site, or is it just something that folks with privileged access to the bowels of Morningstar data can extract?

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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#428813

Postby DavidM13 » July 19th, 2021, 3:22 pm

mc2fool wrote:
DavidM13 wrote:
mc2fool wrote:Interesting statistic you've managed to pop up with there though. At risk of diverting the thread, is this something that we the public can (or soon will be able to) get from the AIC site, or is it just something that folks with privileged access to the bowels of Morningstar data can extract?


I am afraid it is the latter my good man.

88V8
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#428816

Postby 88V8 » July 19th, 2021, 3:32 pm

everhopeful wrote:Shires Income seldom gets a mention. It is one of my largest IT holdings. I like its exposure to preference shares and its yield and capital performance are better than Murray Income and capital performance much better than CTY.

Likewise.
SHRS just pips NCYF as my largest income IT holding.
I do wonder though whether we will see that capital outperformance continue, we are surely at the end of the Fixed Income bull run**
I like the 19 months of revenue reserves, little danger of a divi cut there, albeit the 4.7% yield doesn't shoot the lights out and the 20% gearing is not my favourite feature.

V8
** the end, that is, as predicted for the last three years.

gnawsome
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#428823

Postby gnawsome » July 19th, 2021, 3:55 pm

everhopeful wrote:Shires Income seldom gets a mention. It is one of my largest IT holdings. I like its exposure to preference shares and its yield and capital performance are better than Murray Income and capital performance much better than CTY. I too am a fan of Worldwide Healthcare which is also one of my biggest holdings.


I notice that I bought SHRS Sept 1998 at 3.81 and Oct 1999 at 4.33, on Friday 17/7/21 the price was 2.80
I notice that I bought MYI Nov 1997 at 4.11, and Feb 2014 at9.93 on Friday 17/7/21 the price was 11.62
I notice that I bought CTY Aug 2011 at 2.81, Jun 2013 at 3.46, Sep 2015 at 3.71, and Oct 2019 at 4.07, th price on Fri was 3.94.

I am not tempted to add to SHRS
I might add to CTY or MUT or MYI or TMPL or SOI
I would probably take up any offers from the likes of BBOX ( I sort of expect an offer for subscrn this Autumn)
or 3I, 3in

The trouble is too much in cash -- not enough intelligence

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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#428871

Postby Hariseldon58 » July 19th, 2021, 7:15 pm

I favour a passive etf approach but I do hold investment Trusts to provide diversification in case the passive funds get over concentrated in particular region/sectors ( as in Japan 1989 / 2000)

So for an Income Trust I would offer TR Property ( a collection of property securities rather than direct property) targeted income.

So for Growth then Monks Investment Trust, distinctive management.

For something different, in the third category, not actually an Investment Trust but a good diversifier is Brookfield , provides access to range of areas not easily available and diversification from a total market tracker.

Re Income Trusts I’m a little sceptical , City of London provides regular income but apart from that is performance is on a par with FTSE and that hasn’t been great and we have other trusts that pay a good income that’s based on a % of net asset value, this seems nonsense to me personally, however I can see the attraction to many who demand income. The income is just a controlled return of capital with the hope that growth will make it good. Eg JSGI good record but the income is completely fabricated….

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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#428885

Postby mc2fool » July 19th, 2021, 8:09 pm

Hariseldon58 wrote:...other trusts that pay a good income that’s based on a % of net asset value, this seems nonsense to me personally, however I can see the attraction to many who demand income.

I can't. Surely one of the prime characteristics of "income" investors is the reliability of that income, and while "normal" income trusts, like CTY, can use reserves to ensure that, those that have a policy of paying out a % of NAV are going to have their dividends potentially yo-yo with market forces on the value of their underlying holdings that make up the NAV. Seems a strange choice to me.

absolutezero
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#428901

Postby absolutezero » July 19th, 2021, 9:11 pm

mc2fool wrote:On "essential" ITs to buy, I'd ask, for what purpose? You've now explained a bit about your compartmentalisation but not really about your selection goals.

Wanna get rich, innit!
So growth.

I already have my semiHYP that churns out the dividends. That's the income side of things done.
Though one day I may get fed up of monitoring the HYP and hand it all over to income IT managers instead. Let them manage the portfolio for me.
Buy and hold is not buy and forget. No matter what the HYP purists may think.

dundas666
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#429244

Postby dundas666 » July 21st, 2021, 9:52 am

absolutezero wrote:
dundas666 wrote:Here's mine, selected on the basis that others might not mention them!:

Growth:
Worldwide Healthcare (WWH) - 10 year average TR = 20% pa

Income:
European Assets Trust (EAT) - 10 year average TR = 13% pa, dividend policy of 6% of NAV

Other/Interesting/Free Choice:
International Biotechnology Trust (IBT) - 10 year average TR = 18% pa, dividend policy of 4% of NAV

Thank you for these.
Doesn't EAT attract Dutch withholding tax on dividends? I'm sire I saw that on another discussion.
How does that tend to affect your view of it?


I read elsewhere on the site that it the withholding tax was being withdrawn but can't find any more info.

So I looked at my last EAT dividend and it was the full amount, so it seems it doesn't apply any more.

Dod101
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#429254

Postby Dod101 » July 21st, 2021, 10:09 am

dundas666 wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
dundas666 wrote:Here's mine, selected on the basis that others might not mention them!:

Growth:
Worldwide Healthcare (WWH) - 10 year average TR = 20% pa

Income:
European Assets Trust (EAT) - 10 year average TR = 13% pa, dividend policy of 6% of NAV

Other/Interesting/Free Choice:
International Biotechnology Trust (IBT) - 10 year average TR = 18% pa, dividend policy of 4% of NAV

Thank you for these.
Doesn't EAT attract Dutch withholding tax on dividends? I'm sire I saw that on another discussion.
How does that tend to affect your view of it?


I read elsewhere on the site that it the withholding tax was being withdrawn but can't find any more info.

So I looked at my last EAT dividend and it was the full amount, so it seems it doesn't apply any more.


Well EAT is now a PLC incorporated in the UK so I cannot see how Dutch withholding tax would be relevant.

Dod

absolutezero
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#429270

Postby absolutezero » July 21st, 2021, 10:41 am

dundas666 wrote:
absolutezero wrote:
dundas666 wrote:Here's mine, selected on the basis that others might not mention them!:

Growth:
Worldwide Healthcare (WWH) - 10 year average TR = 20% pa

Income:
European Assets Trust (EAT) - 10 year average TR = 13% pa, dividend policy of 6% of NAV

Other/Interesting/Free Choice:
International Biotechnology Trust (IBT) - 10 year average TR = 18% pa, dividend policy of 4% of NAV

Thank you for these.
Doesn't EAT attract Dutch withholding tax on dividends? I'm sire I saw that on another discussion.
How does that tend to affect your view of it?


I read elsewhere on the site that it the withholding tax was being withdrawn but can't find any more info.

So I looked at my last EAT dividend and it was the full amount, so it seems it doesn't apply any more.

Useful to know. Thanks.

absolutezero
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#429273

Postby absolutezero » July 21st, 2021, 10:43 am

Dod101 wrote:
dundas666 wrote:
absolutezero wrote:Thank you for these.
Doesn't EAT attract Dutch withholding tax on dividends? I'm sire I saw that on another discussion.
How does that tend to affect your view of it?


I read elsewhere on the site that it the withholding tax was being withdrawn but can't find any more info.

So I looked at my last EAT dividend and it was the full amount, so it seems it doesn't apply any more.


Well EAT is now a PLC incorporated in the UK so I cannot see how Dutch withholding tax would be relevant.

Dod

From the annual report
On 16 March 2019 European Assets Trusts NV (“EAT NV”) migrated under the European Cross-Border Merger Regulations its legal seat and structure from the Netherlands to the United Kingdom by means of a cross border merger. All assets and liabilities transferred to its wholly owned subsidiary European Assets Trust PLC (“the Company”). Shareholders received one Ordinary Share in the Company for each share held in EAT NV. EAT NV was then effectively dissolved without liquidation

absolutezero
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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#430966

Postby absolutezero » July 28th, 2021, 1:58 pm

Just a thought about European Assets Trust (EAT).
I've been looking through its portfolio. Lots of low yielding shares, but the trust as whole is over 5% yield.
Seems the income comes from selling shares - based on 6% of the NAV at 31st December each year
How sustainable is this, do we think?

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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#430969

Postby Lootman » July 28th, 2021, 2:08 pm

absolutezero wrote:Just a thought about European Assets Trust (EAT).
I've been looking through its portfolio. Lots of low yielding shares, but the trust as whole is over 5% yield.
Seems the income comes from selling shares - based on 6% of the NAV at 31st December each year
How sustainable is this, do we think?

I would refer you to an entire recent topic on ITs that pay income out of capital:

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=29770

It works fine as long as markets do not have multi-year bear markets.

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Re: Essential Investment Trusts

#431179

Postby absolutezero » July 29th, 2021, 11:29 am

Lootman wrote:
absolutezero wrote:Just a thought about European Assets Trust (EAT).
I've been looking through its portfolio. Lots of low yielding shares, but the trust as whole is over 5% yield.
Seems the income comes from selling shares - based on 6% of the NAV at 31st December each year
How sustainable is this, do we think?

I would refer you to an entire recent topic on ITs that pay income out of capital:

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=29770

It works fine as long as markets do not have multi-year bear markets.

Thank you.
It does seem a bit of a house of cards, working on the idea that share prices will only ever increase.... (like house prices :roll: )


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