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QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

Index tracking funds and ETFs
OhNoNotimAgain
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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#513128

Postby OhNoNotimAgain » July 10th, 2022, 10:21 am

hiriskpaul wrote:
OhNoNotimAgain wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:I haven't seen any convincing argument that index funds distort share prices. If anything they dampen movements. The price of individual shares rises or falls as it becomes in favour or out of favour with investors, but index funds keep the same percentage of a share whether the price rises or falls not dealing at all except when investors put extra money into the fund or withdraw it, and then the ETF buys or sells shares in ALL the constituents, not just one or two as an active manager might. In effect market prices are made by the money that is not in index funds and index funds are passive bystanders. Certainly this is the case with ETFs that track large indices because the market cap of the large indices is so enormous.

No these claims about index funds distorting the market sound more like the bleating of active managers who don't like their lunch being eaten by the likes of Vanguard and Ishares.


Index weights change every day

Not enough to matter.


Fees are charged every day. Sure, they don't matter over one day, but cummulatively, they do, just as much as index weights and executive share options.

The two things investors and observers consistently underestimate is the importance of time and compound returns.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#513129

Postby OhNoNotimAgain » July 10th, 2022, 10:25 am

Walkeia wrote:Personally, I think the key point missing from this debate whenever I see it discussed is that 95%+ of the population don’t give two hoots about active finance / investing. They wish to invest money to gather returns in the long run with very little hassle and low fees. Active management by picking stocks or picking active equity funds takes time and they encounter higher fees and are faced with the paradox of choice and strategies.

So for the vast bulk of people passive funds are the way to go; while they focus on their job or enjoying their life. This, in theory, should leave low hanging fruit for those willing to work and put time into stock picking to out-perform as a reward for time invested during this process. I believe this to be true; but this is not born out by the data for active funds. One reason for this could be that a surprising amount of money which ends up in active funds turns out to be surprisingly passive. Those who actively manage the money can argue this is the fault of the investors … but I’d refer to the original argument. Most people just want to place money to hopefully gain value, defer consumption and focus on other aspects of their life


Largely true.

In part because the industry and its associated financial ecosystem of media, PR, platforms etc has no commercial interest in explaining the difference between alpha and beta.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#513131

Postby XFool » July 10th, 2022, 10:39 am

OhNoNotimAgain wrote:The two things investors and observers consistently underestimate is the importance of time and compound returns.

Which finally takes us to: viewtopic.php?p=212372#p212372 ?

:lol:

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#514385

Postby hiriskpaul » July 14th, 2022, 8:22 pm

OhNoNotimAgain wrote:
hiriskpaul wrote:
hiriskpaul wrote:
OhNoNotimAgain wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:I haven't seen any convincing argument that index funds distort share prices. If anything they dampen movements. The price of individual shares rises or falls as it becomes in favour or out of favour with investors, but index funds keep the same percentage of a share whether the price rises or falls not dealing at all except when investors put extra money into the fund or withdraw it, and then the ETF buys or sells shares in ALL the constituents, not just one or two as an active manager might. In effect market prices are made by the money that is not in index funds and index funds are passive bystanders. Certainly this is the case with ETFs that track large indices because the market cap of the large indices is so enormous.

No these claims about index funds distorting the market sound more like the bleating of active managers who don't like their lunch being eaten by the likes of Vanguard and Ishares.


Index weights change every day

Not enough to matter.

Actually, thinking about it more, the weights for most indexes are I think only changed quarterly or semi-annually. Only if some significant corporate action happen do weights change between scheduled rebalance dates. eg a takeover which immediately ejects a share from the index. That is why the turnover is so low for index funds.


Turnover is low because there is no need to trade as the market moves. They only trade on flows or corporate actions.
Daily adjustment of the index is part and parcel of the process. A stock goes up, its weight increases relative to the others and the next set of inflows is allocated according to the new weight.

There is no other commercial transaction in goods or services that I am aware of where price is the sole factor in determing the size of the allocation.

These are all consequences of being market neutral. Break any one of the conditions and you would not be market neutral. IOW overweight some stocks relative to the market, underweight others. It would then follow that you would need some process to tell you which stocks to overweight and which to underweight. That introduces the risk of underperformance relative to the market (and also risk of outperformance) even before any addition costs required by the process.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#514485

Postby OhNoNotimAgain » July 15th, 2022, 8:46 am

What do you mean by "market neutral"?

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#514501

Postby scrumpyjack » July 15th, 2022, 9:33 am

Also active management is higher risk than passive as it involves concentration in fewer shares and the judgement of a few individuals rather than of the whole market

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#514535

Postby hiriskpaul » July 15th, 2022, 10:46 am

OhNoNotimAgain wrote:What do you mean by "market neutral"?

Being weighted in the same way as the market. ie Holding the same proportion of shares in each company, bar tiddlers for practical reasons. If a big world tracker held 1% of the market, it would hold precisely 1% of Apple, Microsoft, Tesla, Tesco, Lloyds, BP, Greggs, etc. That is market neutral.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#514593

Postby OhNoNotimAgain » July 15th, 2022, 1:04 pm

hiriskpaul wrote:
OhNoNotimAgain wrote:What do you mean by "market neutral"?

Being weighted in the same way as the market. ie Holding the same proportion of shares in each company, bar tiddlers for practical reasons. If a big world tracker held 1% of the market, it would hold precisely 1% of Apple, Microsoft, Tesla, Tesco, Lloyds, BP, Greggs, etc. That is market neutral.


Based on price, but that is only one way to measure a company, the others are:
Revenue
Profits
Book value
Dividends.

Each measure is flawed, but at least the other four have some basis in accounting. Price is determined by sentiment as much as accounting and is therefore highly subjective as we all know. To say weighting by price is market neutral is tempting the Oscar Wilde quote of "knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing".
And the Charlie Munger quote of "that in the short term the market is a voting machine but in the long term it is a weighing machine.".


I

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#514607

Postby hiriskpaul » July 15th, 2022, 1:49 pm

OhNoNotimAgain wrote:
hiriskpaul wrote:
OhNoNotimAgain wrote:What do you mean by "market neutral"?

Being weighted in the same way as the market. ie Holding the same proportion of shares in each company, bar tiddlers for practical reasons. If a big world tracker held 1% of the market, it would hold precisely 1% of Apple, Microsoft, Tesla, Tesco, Lloyds, BP, Greggs, etc. That is market neutral.


Based on price, but that is only one way to measure a company, the others are:
Revenue
Profits
Book value
Dividends.

Each measure is flawed, but at least the other four have some basis in accounting. Price is determined by sentiment as much as accounting and is therefore highly subjective as we all know. To say weighting by price is market neutral is tempting the Oscar Wilde quote of "knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing".
And the Charlie Munger quote of "that in the short term the market is a voting machine but in the long term it is a weighing machine.".


I

Market weight is not by price but by equal proportion of shares. If you calculate the total value of a stock market at the beginning and end of the year, then you can calculate the capital return and dividend/cashflow returns during the year. Investment in a cap weighted tracker for the stock market should closely mirror those returns.

If you weighted by book value, or some other measure that would mean overweighting some stocks, underweighting others and the return would be unlikely to mirror the return of the market as a whole. Not necessarily a worse return, just different and the risk of a worse return. It would also mean more trading as the weights changed, which tends to be detrimental to long term returns due to the additional costs.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#514669

Postby OhNoNotimAgain » July 15th, 2022, 5:30 pm

hiriskpaul wrote:
OhNoNotimAgain wrote:
hiriskpaul wrote:
OhNoNotimAgain wrote:What do you mean by "market neutral"?

Being weighted in the same way as the market. ie Holding the same proportion of shares in each company, bar tiddlers for practical reasons. If a big world tracker held 1% of the market, it would hold precisely 1% of Apple, Microsoft, Tesla, Tesco, Lloyds, BP, Greggs, etc. That is market neutral.


Based on price, but that is only one way to measure a company, the others are:
Revenue
Profits
Book value
Dividends.

Each measure is flawed, but at least the other four have some basis in accounting. Price is determined by sentiment as much as accounting and is therefore highly subjective as we all know. To say weighting by price is market neutral is tempting the Oscar Wilde quote of "knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing".
And the Charlie Munger quote of "that in the short term the market is a voting machine but in the long term it is a weighing machine.".


I

Market weight is not by price but by equal proportion of shares. If you calculate the total value of a stock market at the beginning and end of the year, then you can calculate the capital return and dividend/cashflow returns during the year. Investment in a cap weighted tracker for the stock market should closely mirror those returns.

If you weighted by book value, or some other measure that would mean overweighting some stocks, underweighting others and the return would be unlikely to mirror the return of the market as a whole. Not necessarily a worse return, just different and the risk of a worse return. It would also mean more trading as the weights changed, which tends to be detrimental to long term returns due to the additional costs.


I refer you to the original post. Something that was designed as measure is now used as a target. That has debased its value as a measure.
Jack Bogle established index funds because that was the only way he could stay in the game after he was sacked. He did not do a whole piece of research to determine what was the best measure to use to construct a fund.

The experience of the last two decades surely has proved that allocating capital by price leads to misallocation of capital.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#514735

Postby GeoffF100 » July 16th, 2022, 8:18 am

OhNoNotimAgain wrote:The experience of the last two decades surely has proved that allocating capital by price leads to misallocation of capital.

No it has not. Experience is irrelevant here. The market is the average performance. You can only do better by chance. Minimise your costs.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#514740

Postby OhNoNotimAgain » July 16th, 2022, 8:35 am

GeoffF100 wrote:. Experience is irrelevant here. .


You are correct as I constantly discover

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#514777

Postby AWOL » July 16th, 2022, 11:52 am

Walkeia wrote:One reason for this could be that a surprising amount of money which ends up in active funds turns out to be surprisingly passive. Those who actively manage the money can argue this is the fault of the investors … but I’d refer to the original argument. Most people just want to place money to hopefully gain value, defer consumption and focus on other aspects of their life


It could be but attempts have been made to attempt to analyse the route causes and they suggest that one of the key characteristics of underperforming active funds is that they try to hold around 30 or less holdings to target the winners but in doing so fail to capture the 7 or so stocks that actually drive all the return (as it's hard/impossible to identify them in advance). The irony (for passive funds) is that most stocks underperform and a handful of funds deliver all the return. Ironically holding everything is a more reliable way of holding the winners than holding a small number of stocks. There have been periods where a fund gets the winners right and does very well but it doesn't persist which is the tragedy for active funds.

Now I had thought maybe the lucky winners of the active managers would go into Institutional investment but the performance of institutional fund managers is no better (the last time I looked it was slightly worse!). Perhaps, and this is pure speculation, the institutional winners do go into institutional funds but as outperformance doesn't persist and is usually followed by underperformance perhaps the movement of managers happens but the results aren't as good.

I think the advantage of trusts is not the quality of management but that they are not forced sellers (except if they have discount management rules that make them behave like open ended funds). Again speculation but it's a decent argument especially so when illiquid assets are held.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#515196

Postby 1nvest » July 18th, 2022, 8:46 am

AWOL wrote:It could be but attempts have been made to attempt to analyse the route causes and they suggest that one of the key characteristics of underperforming active funds is that they try to hold around 30 or less holdings to target the winners but in doing so fail to capture the 7 or so stocks that actually drive all the return (as it's hard/impossible to identify them in advance).

But it is fractal. Holding 1000 stocks and assuming equal initial weighting you have just 0.1% invested in the best performing holding. Hold 10 stocks and you have 10% in the best. For the former the best is inclined to be a 10 times better/greater gain than the best of the set of 10, but where overall the portfolio rewards/outcome are broadly the same.

US LEXCX started in the 1930's, initially buying 30 stocks, bought and held, no changes. Broadly that matched the stock index. Similar for the 30 Dow stocks but where that was revised. The tendency with non-rebalanced is to see much of portfolio value being contained within a relatively small number of stocks, higher (concentration) risk.

19th century and bonds used to yield real rates of returns. Gold and money were the same, convertible at a fixed rate, inflation broadly averaged 0%, deposit money to earn interest and that interest was like a real rate of return, and it used to be generous too, 8% type amounts.

Following the ending of the gold standard (convertibility) and bonds broadly transitioned to being 0% real. Stocks became more popular for their real rate of return. However with modern day knowledge the academics identified that the perceived risk of stocks can be eliminated via broad indexing, and for decades you could earn 8% type real from stocks with low/no risk, 4% minimum (as per SWR). But in awareness of that prices were bid up, seeing the real return tending to decline, ultimately likely also to 0% - as per bonds. Great for the since 1980 stock investors, but perhaps much less so in forward time where stock total returns might be little different to bonds, 0% real type total return assets.

With more having surplus capital, and more being aware of the 'free lunch', the inclination is for lower total returns in forward time (next 30+ years). The secret sauce may become trading, volatility capture. 20% standard deviation in stocks is inclined to persist, considerable deviations around the mean, and simple rebalancing yearly can trade/capture such volatility.

If you have a standard deviation of 20, one £1 asset up to £1.20, another down to 80p, then 50/50 of both rebalanced still just yields a average of £1, break-even. However individually one asset down 20% one year needs to gain 25% to get back to break-even, there's a positive bias of 2.5% overall from equal weighting and rebalancing back to equal weightings that buy-and-hold otherwise misses. Doesn't really matter if you play that with 1000+ stocks/assets, or just a handful of assets. Primarily you just diversify sufficiently in order to reduce single holding risk down to a relatively low/acceptable level. For instance 20 holdings = 5% risk per holding.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#515209

Postby OhNoNotimAgain » July 18th, 2022, 9:03 am

1nvest wrote:. Holding 1000 stocks and assuming equal initial weighting you have just 0.1% invested in the best performing holding. Hold 10 stocks and you have 10% in the best. For the former the best is inclined to be a 10 times better/greater gain than the best of the set of 10, but where overall the portfolio rewards/outcome are broadly the same.

.


Equal weighting assumes that the returns from, say, a betting company will be the same as from an international energy company. That just doesn't happen in practice. Portfoilio construction is not like stamp collecting where you want one of each.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#515211

Postby OhNoNotimAgain » July 18th, 2022, 9:11 am

AWOL wrote:
It could be but attempts have been made to attempt to analyse the route causes and they suggest that one of the key characteristics of underperforming active funds is that they try to hold around 30 or less holdings to target the winners but in doing so fail to capture the 7 or so stocks that actually drive all the return (as it's hard/impossible to identify them in advance). The irony (for passive funds) is that most stocks underperform and a handful of funds deliver all the return. Ironically holding everything is a more reliable way of holding the winners than holding a small number of stocks. There have been periods where a fund gets the winners right and does very well but it doesn't persist which is the tragedy for active funds.



We all know that because of weighted averages poorly performing stocks become less and less important over time while good performers become more important. The penalty from holding duds is lower than the benefits of holding stars.

Active managers now have to be more "active" to prove their differentiation from passive or closet passive funds so need to take bigger and bigger bets to prove their worth. But everyone knows examples of where that is fine when funds are growing, getting inflows and creating their own momentum, but redemptions expose the underlying risk concentration.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#515280

Postby 1nvest » July 18th, 2022, 12:36 pm

OhNoNotimAgain wrote:
1nvest wrote:. Holding 1000 stocks and assuming equal initial weighting you have just 0.1% invested in the best performing holding. Hold 10 stocks and you have 10% in the best. For the former the best is inclined to be a 10 times better/greater gain than the best of the set of 10, but where overall the portfolio rewards/outcome are broadly the same,

Equal weighting assumes that the returns from, say, a betting company will be the same as from an international energy company. That just doesn't happen in practice. Portfolio construction is not like stamp collecting where you want one of each.

Agreed. For portfolio construction many prefer equal share weighting (market cap weighting) for greater costs efficiency. I'm not suggesting equal weighting as a portfolio, just using it for mathematical simplification. Broadly equal capital or equal share weighting might be expected to yield similar rewards (excluding costs), neither consistently betters the other. If 'buy the entire haystack' right tail (good/best) case outcome held true, then equal share weighting would tend to relatively lag, in being less likely that the very largest (stocks with the most capital weighted to them by investors under cap weighting selectivity) leaves relatively less capital having been allocated to them than under equal weighting. Consider a extreme of a universe of just ten stocks, one of which had £90 of £100 invested in it because it was the largest stock (£90Bn market cap perhaps), nine other having £1 invested (£1Bn market cap each) - it would generally be more probable that one of the £1Bn cap stocks might double than the £90Bn valued stock double.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#515293

Postby OhNoNotimAgain » July 18th, 2022, 1:03 pm

1nvest wrote:Agreed. For portfolio construction many prefer equal share weighting (market cap weighting) for greater costs efficiency. I'm not suggesting equal weighting as a portfolio, just using it for mathematical simplification. Broadly equal capital or equal share weighting might be expected to yield similar rewards (excluding costs), neither consistently betters the other. If 'buy the entire haystack' right tail (good/best) case outcome held true, then equal share weighting would tend to relatively lag, in being less likely that the very largest (stocks with the most capital weighted to them by investors under cap weighting selectivity) leaves relatively less capital having been allocated to them than under equal weighting. Consider a extreme of a universe of just ten stocks, one of which had £90 of £100 invested in it because it was the largest stock (£90Bn market cap perhaps), nine other having £1 invested (£1Bn market cap each) - it would generally be more probable that one of the £1Bn cap stocks might double than the £90Bn valued stock double.


So what is more likely, a £90 bn stock growing by 1.1% over a year, or a £1bn stock doubling? Both would give you a portfolio of £101 bn.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#515297

Postby BT63 » July 18th, 2022, 1:08 pm

1nvest wrote:
OhNoNotimAgain wrote:
1nvest wrote:. Holding 1000 stocks and assuming equal initial weighting you have just 0.1% invested in the best performing holding. Hold 10 stocks and you have 10% in the best. For the former the best is inclined to be a 10 times better/greater gain than the best of the set of 10, but where overall the portfolio rewards/outcome are broadly the same,

Equal weighting assumes that the returns from, say, a betting company will be the same as from an international energy company. That just doesn't happen in practice. Portfolio construction is not like stamp collecting where you want one of each.

Agreed. For portfolio construction many prefer equal share weighting (market cap weighting) for greater costs efficiency. I'm not suggesting equal weighting as a portfolio, just using it for mathematical simplification. Broadly equal capital or equal share weighting might be expected to yield similar rewards (excluding costs), neither consistently betters the other. If 'buy the entire haystack' right tail (good/best) case outcome held true, then equal share weighting would tend to relatively lag, in being less likely that the very largest (stocks with the most capital weighted to them by investors under cap weighting selectivity) leaves relatively less capital having been allocated to them than under equal weighting. Consider a extreme of a universe of just ten stocks, one of which had £90 of £100 invested in it because it was the largest stock (£90Bn market cap perhaps), nine other having £1 invested (£1Bn market cap each) - it would generally be more probable that one of the £1Bn cap stocks might double than the £90Bn valued stock double.



My unproven gut feeling over the years is that frequently the companies with the largest capitalisations are in the latest-fad sector of the market and sit on relatively high valuations.
High valuations usually mean-revert downwards causing underperformance as markets rotate into another sector when the fad changes.

Therefore I suspect that more often than not, cap-weighting tends to underperform equal-weighting and cap-weighting concentrates risk while equal-weighting spreads risk.

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Re: QE and index funds have deformed the stock market as predicted by Goodhart’s Law.

#515298

Postby 1nvest » July 18th, 2022, 1:13 pm

OhNoNotimAgain wrote:
1nvest wrote:Agreed. For portfolio construction many prefer equal share weighting (market cap weighting) for greater costs efficiency. I'm not suggesting equal weighting as a portfolio, just using it for mathematical simplification. Broadly equal capital or equal share weighting might be expected to yield similar rewards (excluding costs), neither consistently betters the other. If 'buy the entire haystack' right tail (good/best) case outcome held true, then equal share weighting would tend to relatively lag, in being less likely that the very largest (stocks with the most capital weighted to them by investors under cap weighting selectivity) leaves relatively less capital having been allocated to them than under equal weighting. Consider a extreme of a universe of just ten stocks, one of which had £90 of £100 invested in it because it was the largest stock (£90Bn market cap perhaps), nine other having £1 invested (£1Bn market cap each) - it would generally be more probable that one of the £1Bn cap stocks might double than the £90Bn valued stock double.

So what is more likely, a £90 bn stock growing by 1.1% over a year, or a £1bn stock doubling? Both would give you a portfolio of £101 bn.

Under cap weighted. 10% for the £1Bn stock doubling for equal weighted. But that's all beside the point I was making to AWOL about not needing to buy the entire haystack as the 'characteristics' are fractal.


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