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hybrid or not to hybrid

Passion, instruction, buying, care, maintenance and more, any form of vehicle discussion is welcome here
swill453
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Re: hybrid or not to hybrid

#348430

Postby swill453 » October 17th, 2020, 9:50 am

jackdaww wrote:if odometer based they could be overstated by at least 5%

Where do you get data to back up your claim that odometers are so inaccurate? With a bit of googling I found a few discussions where figures of about 1% off seemed typical.

Odometers by their nature are much easier to get accurate than speedometers, given the direct mechanical connection between the wheels and whatever's doing the counting. No wavy needle to take into account.

(I accept tyre wear and pressure come into play, but think the effect will be small).

Scott.

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Re: hybrid or not to hybrid

#348434

Postby nmdhqbc » October 17th, 2020, 9:55 am

jackdaww wrote:trip computers are no use for serious comparisons.

i do accept the figures supplied including the 71mpg for the hyundai iconiq .

i have said the figures are overstated if mileages are derived from the odometer .

i grind no axes , i want to grind out more accuracy (without decimals).

:)


Seems like a given that most things are not 100% accurate. All anyone can do is their best to estimate. These numbers are as good as anyone can reasonably estimate so banging on about it like you have is pointless.

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Re: hybrid or not to hybrid

#348435

Postby jackdaww » October 17th, 2020, 9:58 am

swill453 wrote:
jackdaww wrote:if odometer based they could be overstated by at least 5%

Where do you get data to back up your claim that odometers are so inaccurate? With a bit of googling I found a few discussions where figures of about 1% off seemed typical.

Odometers by their nature are much easier to get accurate than speedometers, given the direct mechanical connection between the wheels and whatever's doing the counting. No wavy needle to take into account.

(I accept tyre wear and pressure come into play, but think the effect will be small).

Scott.


==============================

you may be right.

i have assumed odometers derive their data from the same source as the speedometer , which are widely considered to be fast , my own car speedo is way faster than my garmin satnav.

DAK how odometers work , are the accurate ?

:)

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Re: hybrid or not to hybrid

#348436

Postby nmdhqbc » October 17th, 2020, 10:03 am

jackdaww wrote: but its nowhere near 70 - 80 mpg .


Nowhere has anyone said they get 70-80mpg on average. The only time 80mpg is mention is for one journey. Obviously a good day and a favorable journey for efficiency. But it was never presented as anything different. I've corrected you on this already but you keep banging on about it. You keep refuting this 70-80mpg thing that no-one has said at all. This kind of ignoring facts and twisting of words and numbers is what makes me think you have some kind of axe to grind.

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Re: hybrid or not to hybrid

#348438

Postby jackdaww » October 17th, 2020, 10:11 am

nmdhqbc wrote:
jackdaww wrote: but its nowhere near 70 - 80 mpg .


Nowhere has anyone said they get 70-80mpg on average. The only time 80mpg is mention is for one journey. Obviously a good day and a favorable journey for efficiency. But it was never presented as anything different. I've corrected you on this already but you keep banging on about it. You keep refuting this 70-80mpg thing that no-one has said at all. This kind of ignoring facts and twisting of words and numbers is what makes me think you have some kind of axe to grind.


=================================

quote from a previous post .

"The Hyundai average surpasses 70mpg and on a 350 mile trip last year it topped 80mpg."

i think its quite fair to take issue with this .

again i have no axe to grind , i dont do politics.

i am very pro hybrids , my next car will be a hybrid.

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Re: hybrid or not to hybrid

#348442

Postby nmdhqbc » October 17th, 2020, 10:31 am

jackdaww wrote:
nmdhqbc wrote:
jackdaww wrote: but its nowhere near 70 - 80 mpg .


Nowhere has anyone said they get 70-80mpg on average. The only time 80mpg is mention is for one journey. Obviously a good day and a favorable journey for efficiency. But it was never presented as anything different. I've corrected you on this already but you keep banging on about it. You keep refuting this 70-80mpg thing that no-one has said at all. This kind of ignoring facts and twisting of words and numbers is what makes me think you have some kind of axe to grind.


=================================

quote from a previous post .

"The Hyundai average surpasses 70mpg and on a 350 mile trip last year it topped 80mpg."

i think its quite fair to take issue with this .

again i have no axe to grind , i dont do politics.

i am very pro hybrids , my next car will be a hybrid.


READ THE WORDS. One trip of 80mpg and 71mpg on average. The excel screenshot showed the average. That is very different from 70-80mpg. 70-80mpg would average at about 75mpg which was never claimed. The 71mpg got on average will include 80mpg trips like the one mentioned and 60mpg to balance it out. And everything in between I'm sure. So it's not the same thing. You've twisted the words.

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Re: hybrid or not to hybrid

#348446

Postby nmdhqbc » October 17th, 2020, 10:54 am

jackdaww wrote:
Redmires wrote:
jackdaww wrote:
your hyundai did just short of 60mpg based on miles and gallons .

assuming those are accurate - odometers arent - satnavs are - thats sounds fine .

but isnt your talk of 70 and 80 mpg just stretching it a little?

ive heard these tales all my driving life...... hence :roll:

ps. no need for 3 decimal places in this , round figures are plenty if the measurements are accurate.


Ok, I'll try to make things a bit clearer. Don't know why I need to justify myself but here goes.

If you read my post again and concentrate, you will see that in the first paragraph I am talking about the Hyundai. I then post a link to Honest John about the Hyundai. Then ..... 'Taking the Niro as an example' I give the figures for that car. I could have picked any car, it just happened to be the Kia Niro.

Here are the Hyundai figures for you to roll your eyes at

855.73 litres * 0.21997 = 188.23 gallons

13432.2 miles / 188.23 gallons = 71.36 mpg

I'll post my petrol receipts if you ask nicely.


===================================

no need for receipts , i fully accept your figures .

the hyundai iconiq is a bit controversial - the manufacturer claims 63mpg, a lot less than your 71mpg.

however accepting all your figures , the average of all the vehicles is about 59mpg .

i find that very impressive , especially if your mileages are satnav based .

if odometer based they could be overstated by at least 5% which means your overall average could be nearer 55mpg.

i still find that impressive --

but its nowhere near 70 - 80 mpg .

8-)


You've averaged all the cars, lobbed off 5% and then declared it's nowhere near 70-80mpg. 70-80mpg as never claimed and 71mpg average was only claimed for the one car not them all. You're arguing against thing which were never claimed. Why do that?

Howard
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Re: hybrid or not to hybrid

#348470

Postby Howard » October 17th, 2020, 2:03 pm

In response to the OP, we've had experience of driving a plug-in hybrid for two years. And I’m a sad person who has recorded on a spreadsheet all the fuel I’ve bought for our cars over 20 years. :(

Mrs H leased a plug in hybrid, a BMW330e. The car covered less than 12,000 miles in two years. Much of Mrs H’s driving involved short trips of around 10 miles in a day.

On shopping trips the car was quiet and docile. However, on a longer drive, seamless power was delivered whenever required! The car was a joy to drive. My wife achieved amazing economy whilst I had the fun of huge torque delivered incredibly quietly. Totally trouble-free for two years the car only visited a dealer once, its first service after 24 months.

Electric drive is incredibly relaxing and smooth. Obviously one had to be careful to drive slowly near pedestrians as the car was very quiet in a car park situation. On a full charge, the car would go for around 14 miles on electric power only, provided the speed was below 65mph. (On a 2020 model this range has been doubled, I believe).

There was never any range anxiety, as the car had a range of substantially more than 400 miles on a long trip.

Over 11,292 miles the car used 726.05 litres of petrol. So it achieved 71 mpg.

The car was charged most evenings and I estimate that over two years it consumed around £240 of electricity.

If one notionally converts the £240 into litres of petrol, at say an average of £1.20 per litre that would be the equivalent of using an additional 200 litres of fuel. This gives a notional total consumption of 926.05 litres and an overall notional fuel consumption of 55.5 mpg.

So, not bad for a powerful car used mainly for short runs.

For comparison, the Merc C Class diesel which preceded the hybrid got 44 mpg over 26,000 miles and the current replacement is a petrol VW Golf 1.5 TSI which is getting 43 mpg under similar driving conditions.

More details are on viewtopic.php?p=144638#p144638

More recently I read a report by Which magazine which investigated why Toyota cars were incredibly reliable compared with virtually every other car make (and far more reliable than fully electric cars!) They have asked their thousands of subscribers about their cars every year for around 30 years and have a very high response, so probably know more about car reliability than the rest of us. Which’s conclusion, after quizzing Toyota, was that most Toyota's are hybrids and this design means that the petrol engines are simpler and less stressed because the electric motor takes the strain of starting off at low speeds.

Hope this is helpful.

regards

Howard

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Re: hybrid or not to hybrid

#348515

Postby jackdaww » October 17th, 2020, 5:34 pm

Howard wrote:In response to the OP, we've had experience of driving a plug-in hybrid for two years. And I’m a sad person who has recorded on a spreadsheet all the fuel I’ve bought for our cars over 20 years. :(

Mrs H leased a plug in hybrid, a BMW330e. The car covered less than 12,000 miles in two years. Much of Mrs H’s driving involved short trips of around 10 miles in a day.

On shopping trips the car was quiet and docile. However, on a longer drive, seamless power was delivered whenever required! The car was a joy to drive. My wife achieved amazing economy whilst I had the fun of huge torque delivered incredibly quietly. Totally trouble-free for two years the car only visited a dealer once, its first service after 24 months.

Electric drive is incredibly relaxing and smooth. Obviously one had to be careful to drive slowly near pedestrians as the car was very quiet in a car park situation. On a full charge, the car would go for around 14 miles on electric power only, provided the speed was below 65mph. (On a 2020 model this range has been doubled, I believe).

There was never any range anxiety, as the car had a range of substantially more than 400 miles on a long trip.

Over 11,292 miles the car used 726.05 litres of petrol. So it achieved 71 mpg.

The car was charged most evenings and I estimate that over two years it consumed around £240 of electricity.

If one notionally converts the £240 into litres of petrol, at say an average of £1.20 per litre that would be the equivalent of using an additional 200 litres of fuel. This gives a notional total consumption of 926.05 litres and an overall notional fuel consumption of 55.5 mpg.

So, not bad for a powerful car used mainly for short runs.

For comparison, the Merc C Class diesel which preceded the hybrid got 44 mpg over 26,000 miles and the current replacement is a petrol VW Golf 1.5 TSI which is getting 43 mpg under similar driving conditions.

More details are on viewtopic.php?p=144638#p144638

More recently I read a report by Which magazine which investigated why Toyota cars were incredibly reliable compared with virtually every other car make (and far more reliable than fully electric cars!) They have asked their thousands of subscribers about their cars every year for around 30 years and have a very high response, so probably know more about car reliability than the rest of us. Which’s conclusion, after quizzing Toyota, was that most Toyota's are hybrids and this design means that the petrol engines are simpler and less stressed because the electric motor takes the strain of starting off at low speeds.

Hope this is helpful.

regards

Howard


========================

very helpful.

55mpg sounds about right , similar to the toyota rav4 and better than the honda crv .

i doubt if many vehicles of that size would do much better over several thousand miles .

:)

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Re: hybrid or not to hybrid

#348580

Postby redsturgeon » October 18th, 2020, 9:01 am

As someone who has runs a BMW PHEV and has done over 50,000 miles in it in the last four years I can back up all the points Howard makes. Mine will actually run up to 75mph fully electric and still gives a 14 miles range on electric only after four years. This might not sound very useful but most days we will just run around town and local trips so most days it run entirely on electricity. In fact during lockdown I believe we went three months while driving the car almost every day without filling up.

The driving experience has been fantastic, as mentioned, with a silky smooth 225bhp on tap when both the petrol and electric engines kick in under heavy acceleration. Also since the petrol engine drives the front and the electric the rear I also have a very useful 4x4 when required.

Before this we had a Lexus CT200 which we drove for 80,000 miles of completely trouble free (albeit slightly anodyne) motoring . This was a hybrid but without the plug-in ability and thus only able to run about 2-3 miles on electric only power. One key point perhaps not noted in this thread is that non plug in hybrids have a much smaller battery pack than PHEVs and both much smaller and lighter packs than a full BEV.

My next car will probably be a BEV but I would not totally discount a PHEV.

John

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Re: hybrid or not to hybrid

#348583

Postby jackdaww » October 18th, 2020, 9:24 am

redsturgeon wrote:As someone who has runs a BMW PHEV and has done over 50,000 miles in it in the last four years I can back up all the points Howard makes. Mine will actually run up to 75mph fully electric and still gives a 14 miles range on electric only after four years. This might not sound very useful but most days we will just run around town and local trips so most days it run entirely on electricity. In fact during lockdown I believe we went three months while driving the car almost every day without filling up.

The driving experience has been fantastic, as mentioned, with a silky smooth 225bhp on tap when both the petrol and electric engines kick in under heavy acceleration. Also since the petrol engine drives the front and the electric the rear I also have a very useful 4x4 when required.

Before this we had a Lexus CT200 which we drove for 80,000 miles of completely trouble free (albeit slightly anodyne) motoring . This was a hybrid but without the plug-in ability and thus only able to run about 2-3 miles on electric only power. One key point perhaps not noted in this thread is that non plug in hybrids have a much smaller battery pack than PHEVs and both much smaller and lighter packs than a full BEV.

My next car will probably be a BEV but I would not totally discount a PHEV.

John


=========================

another helpful post , thanks.

does the BMW have a gearbox? if so what sort ?

i am interested in gearbox free hybrids - eg honda cr-v.

has anyone experience of range extended battery electrics - REX? ie with an ancilliary petrol engine purely to recharge the battery , so no mechanical transmission involved .

DAK please?

:?:

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Re: hybrid or not to hybrid

#348630

Postby Howard » October 18th, 2020, 12:38 pm

jackdaww wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:As someone who has runs a BMW PHEV and has done over 50,000 miles in it in the last four years I can back up all the points Howard makes. Mine will actually run up to 75mph fully electric and still gives a 14 miles range on electric only after four years. This might not sound very useful but most days we will just run around town and local trips so most days it run entirely on electricity. In fact during lockdown I believe we went three months while driving the car almost every day without filling up.

The driving experience has been fantastic, as mentioned, with a silky smooth 225bhp on tap when both the petrol and electric engines kick in under heavy acceleration. Also since the petrol engine drives the front and the electric the rear I also have a very useful 4x4 when required.

Before this we had a Lexus CT200 which we drove for 80,000 miles of completely trouble free (albeit slightly anodyne) motoring . This was a hybrid but without the plug-in ability and thus only able to run about 2-3 miles on electric only power. One key point perhaps not noted in this thread is that non plug in hybrids have a much smaller battery pack than PHEVs and both much smaller and lighter packs than a full BEV.

My next car will probably be a BEV but I would not totally discount a PHEV.

John


=========================

another helpful post , thanks.

does the BMW have a gearbox? if so what sort ?

i am interested in gearbox free hybrids - eg honda cr-v.

has anyone experience of range extended battery electrics - REX? ie with an ancilliary petrol engine purely to recharge the battery , so no mechanical transmission involved .

DAK please?

:?:


The BMW 330e has an 8 speed automatic gearbox just like a normal petrol BMW. As far as driving was concerned the car behaved very similarly to the petrol only version but with the extra power delivery from the electric motor which came in seamlessly.

I agree with Redsturgeon that ideally our next second car will be a BEV. The reason we went for a Golf is that Mrs H wanted a smaller car and no suitable BEVs were available to lease when we had to change car. I have driven a Nissan Leaf and it was very quiet and smooth but at the time we changed, it was rejected because it was bigger than a Golf, the range wasn't large enough and the leasing costs were significantly higher than a Golf.

There appears to be a role for PHEVs at the moment, particularly if one has the ability to charge them at home. (We just plugged in to a 13 amp socket) but, I guess they will be phased out when BEV family saloons have a range of, say, 400 miles and are offered for a reasonable selling price, say around £25k. This might be in five years time? But it depends on battery technology developing. We'll see how the VW ID.3 takes this concept forward.

(By the way, the problem of weight in a hybrid is the battery. The ICE engine, whilst complex, is relatively lightweight because it has to do less work).

regards

Howard

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Re: hybrid or not to hybrid

#348722

Postby 88V8 » October 18th, 2020, 5:48 pm

The greatest cost over the life of the average private car bought new, is the loss of capital on resale. Hybrids? Hmmm.

And if buying second-hand, be jolly sure that your local garage can service it.

What bugs me about hybrids, is people who buy them for the tax break then never plug them in. Eco-hypocrites.

And isn't it funny, the whole electric fad, how the 'disadvantaged' who usually attract so much concern, are completely obliterated in the rush to slag off the cheap petrol and diesel cars which are the only viable option for the average unwealthy park-in-the-street punter.

Anyway, abhorring complexification as I do, a hybrid will never remotely get onto my radar. Although my neighbour's newish Lexus does go jolly well, and happily conveys them to Switzerland and back on a regular basis.

V8


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