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Highway Code changes

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swill453
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Highway Code changes

#431420

Postby swill453 » July 30th, 2021, 11:33 am

The BBC has an article saying that "New changes to the Highway Code will give pedestrians greater priority over cars at junctions and crossings" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58021450

There's plenty of detail on what the current HC says, but little concrete info on what the new wording will be. Has anyone seen exactly what the changes are? Or must we wait until it comes out in "the autumn"?

Scott.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#431910

Postby chas49 » August 1st, 2021, 8:57 pm

The consultation document, and the government response (both here) gives details of the proposed rule changes and the responses received. Some of the changes are going to be tweaked from the proposal so it's not a definite result until the proposed changes are laid before Parliament.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#431943

Postby Lootman » August 2nd, 2021, 7:00 am

chas49 wrote:The consultation document, and the government response (both here) gives details of the proposed rule changes and the responses received. Some of the changes are going to be tweaked from the proposal so it's not a definite result until the proposed changes are laid before Parliament.

And even when a revised code is approved, the new provisions would also have to be incorporated into road traffic law to actual become mandatory. You cannot get a ticket merely for "breaking the highway code".

Of course, does anyone read the highway code after they pass their test? I last read it 50 years ago.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#431944

Postby AF62 » August 2nd, 2021, 7:18 am

The two proposed changes which seemed to have provoked the media response are -

- A change to rule 170 so if a pedestrian is waiting to cross at a junction then drivers or cyclists turning into that junction should give them priority to cross, not as now only give them priority if they are already crossing.

The trouble with this is their research showed that 80% of drivers and cyclists didn’t know about rule 170 as it is now and wouldn’t give priority to someone already crossing, so zero chance of getting them to give priority to someone stood on the pavement waiting to cross.

- A change to give cyclists priority at junctions if they are going straight on and you are turning left, i.e. treating them as a vehicle in their own lane.

Well here you have the wonderful conflict of Mr Toad in his car who doesn’t want anything to slow him down in his insulated two tonnes of metal and oblivious to what is around him, against cyclists who believe they are immortal and are aiming for “but I had the right of way” on their headstone, whilst treating road traffic laws as advisory.

Whatever they print is irrelevant.

Personally I would like rule 192 changed so anyone breaching it had their car crushed.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#431950

Postby swill453 » August 2nd, 2021, 8:18 am

Lootman wrote:And even when a revised code is approved, the new provisions would also have to be incorporated into road traffic law to actual become mandatory. You cannot get a ticket merely for "breaking the highway code".

No, not exactly like that. But you can get a ticket for driving without due care and attention for doing something that's not a specific offence, and the Highway Code conveniently advises you how to avoid that.

Scott.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#431958

Postby Nimrod103 » August 2nd, 2021, 8:59 am

These two changes look like making driving more risky and worrying, which perhaps is the intention.

There is no doubt about the intention of a pedestrian if they are in the road at a junction, but loitering on a street corner? Will the driver have to assume that any pedestrian at a street corner is about to jump into the road?

Does the rule change on cyclists mean that they can quietly shimmy up the inside of stationary traffic, and demand to have priority to go straight on, when the car at the front of the queue wants to turn left? I'll have to look over my left shouler before pulling away in future.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#431959

Postby doolally » August 2nd, 2021, 9:06 am

Nimrod103 wrote:These two changes look like making driving more risky and worrying, which perhaps is the intention.

There is no doubt about the intention of a pedestrian if they are in the road at a junction, but loitering on a street corner? Will the driver have to assume that any pedestrian at a street corner is about to jump into the road?

Does the rule change on cyclists mean that they can quietly shimmy up the inside of stationary traffic, and demand to have priority to go straight on, when the car at the front of the queue wants to turn left? I'll have to look over my left shouler before pulling away in future.

Why "in future"? Isn't it the common-sense thing to do regardless of the law or the highway code?

doolally

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Re: Highway Code changes

#431961

Postby Lootman » August 2nd, 2021, 9:09 am

Nimrod103 wrote:These two changes look like making driving more risky and worrying, which perhaps is the intention.

There is no doubt about the intention of a pedestrian if they are in the road at a junction, but loitering on a street corner? Will the driver have to assume that any pedestrian at a street corner is about to jump into the road?

Does the rule change on cyclists mean that they can quietly shimmy up the inside of stationary traffic, and demand to have priority to go straight on, when the car at the front of the queue wants to turn left? I'll have to look over my left shoulder before pulling away in future.

There is little doubt in my mind that these changes would cause an increase in bad and inconsiderate behaviour on the part of cyclists and pedestrians. I say this because these provisions actually exist in some parts of the US that I have experienced first hand.

Although jaywalking is illegal in the US and not here, pedestrians often suddenly step right out into the road at intersections because the law says they have the right of way there.

And at least in some cities in the US cyclists are now considered to have priority in almost all situations, even when there is a bike lane that is not being used. And they are granted immunity from stopping at stop signs and lights. Consequently there are some insanely aggressive cyclists in the US.

That said the only thing that still should motivate proper behaviour on the part of cyclists and pedestrians is their vulnerability. Being technically correct but dead is very over-rated.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#431976

Postby 88V8 » August 2nd, 2021, 10:22 am

And who precisely was consulted. It wasn't flagged in any of the car mags I read. Consultation now closed.....

Jeez, why has it all become so complicated.
I have a copy of the Code from around 1948 where it still show whip signals, that's the copy I work to.

Pedestrians crossing at junctions, give way... what, so you're driving in a traffic stream, turning left, and suddenly for no reason apparent to the driver behind, you stop because someone is hovering on the kerb. Yeah...

AF62 wrote:Personally I would like rule 192 changed so anyone breaching it had their car crushed.

And I would like to see bikes crushed if ridden on the pavement, or without a bell, or lights at night.

V8 (sometime cyclist and pedestrian)

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Re: Highway Code changes

#431983

Postby Nimrod103 » August 2nd, 2021, 10:34 am

doolally wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:These two changes look like making driving more risky and worrying, which perhaps is the intention.

There is no doubt about the intention of a pedestrian if they are in the road at a junction, but loitering on a street corner? Will the driver have to assume that any pedestrian at a street corner is about to jump into the road?

Does the rule change on cyclists mean that they can quietly shimmy up the inside of stationary traffic, and demand to have priority to go straight on, when the car at the front of the queue wants to turn left? I'll have to look over my left shouler before pulling away in future.

Why "in future"? Isn't it the common-sense thing to do regardless of the law or the highway code?

doolally


Not sure what you are getting at. When pulling away from the kerb, it is correct to look over one's right shoulder.

When pulling away at controlled junctions it is not normal behaviour to look backward over one's right shoulder, nor one's left.
But in future, it will be required that one looks backward over one's left shoulder, because the cyclist undertaking on the kerbside has effectively created their own traffic lane, and by turning left you (the car driver) are crossing over it.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#431993

Postby AF62 » August 2nd, 2021, 11:08 am

88V8 wrote:Pedestrians crossing at junctions, give way... what, so you're driving in a traffic stream, turning left, and suddenly for no reason apparent to the driver behind, you stop because someone is hovering on the kerb. Yeah...


But that should happen now if someone is following rule 170 and a pedestrian has placed a foot on the road to cross the junction - except of course it doesn’t because most motorists are unaware of it and those that are aware tend to ignore it.

When I worked in London there was a traffic light controlled junction on the Euston Road I had to cross; except it didn’t have a pedestrian phase or pedestrian controls AND it had been designed so the pedestrians couldn’t see the lights (there wasn’t one one the far side of the junction).

If you waited for the lights on the Euston Road to go red before crossing then the traffic joining or crossing the Euston Road with a green light would mow you down if you stepped out. And if you crossed when the lights on the Euston Road were green, then although the pedestrians crossing the junction the cars were turning into had priority (rule 170) unfortunately the morons in their cars only saw the green light.

88V8 wrote: And I would like to see bikes crushed if ridden on the pavement, or without a bell, or lights at night.

V8 (sometime cyclist and pedestrian)


Pavements - well perhaps if the councils were consistent with cycle lanes. Round here the cycle lanes hop on and off the pavement, sometimes separated with a line, sometimes not, sometimes signed, sometimes not. And of course it completely vanishes at any point it might be vaguely useful.

Bells - On the Brompton I road in London, as well as the polite ‘ting’ excuse me bell, I fitted an exceedingly loud horn. It caused many a ‘brown trouser’ moment for pedestrians who stepped into the road without looking (not stepping out at junctions I hasten to add).

Lights - Completely agree - wannabe organ donors.

Nimrod103 wrote:Not sure what you are getting at. When pulling away from the kerb, it is correct to look over one's right shoulder.

When pulling away at controlled junctions it is not normal behaviour to look backward over one's right shoulder, nor one's left.
But in future, it will be required that one looks backward over one's left shoulder, because the cyclist undertaking on the kerbside has effectively created their own traffic lane, and by turning left you (the car driver) are crossing over it.


Not sure where you drive, but in any remotely busy town it is already sensible to check left or right before turning because of undertaking or overtaking cyclists.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#432003

Postby swill453 » August 2nd, 2021, 11:41 am

Nimrod103 wrote:Not sure what you are getting at. When pulling away from the kerb, it is correct to look over one's right shoulder.

When pulling away at controlled junctions it is not normal behaviour to look backward over one's right shoulder, nor one's left.
But in future, it will be required that one looks backward over one's left shoulder, because the cyclist undertaking on the kerbside has effectively created their own traffic lane, and by turning left you (the car driver) are crossing over it.

Any time you're sitting at traffic lights, a cyclist could, right now, quite legally have filtered up the left side of you, and be intending to go straight ahead. Anyone who turns left without checking is highly irresponsible. I always make a specific point of it.

Scott.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#432006

Postby Lootman » August 2nd, 2021, 11:47 am

swill453 wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Not sure what you are getting at. When pulling away from the kerb, it is correct to look over one's right shoulder.

When pulling away at controlled junctions it is not normal behaviour to look backward over one's right shoulder, nor one's left.
But in future, it will be required that one looks backward over one's left shoulder, because the cyclist undertaking on the kerbside has effectively created their own traffic lane, and by turning left you (the car driver) are crossing over it.

Any time you're sitting at traffic lights, a cyclist could, right now, quite legally have filtered up the left side of you, and be intending to go straight ahead. Anyone who turns left without checking is highly irresponsible. I always make a specific point of it.

The approach I was taught when I was taking the California driving test was as follows. And of course the equivalent there is right turns.

That a vehicle turning right actually moves to the right if it intends to turn right. Therefore a cyclist can not creep up undetected on the right for the simple reason that there is no room.(*)

And this is the case even if there is a designated bike lane to the right - the turning vehicle should and indeed must occupy that bike lane, whilst the cyclist holds back.

That seems safer and more sensible to me than to allow cyclists to perform clandestine undertaking and to compel drivers to look out for that. A cyclist seeing a vehicle ahead should always be alert to the possibility that that vehicle may turn left.

(*) There is an issue with long vehicles that need to make wide turns. In that case the vehicle may even have to move to the left in order to turn right, or to the right to turn left.
Last edited by Lootman on August 2nd, 2021, 11:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#432007

Postby doolally » August 2nd, 2021, 11:48 am

Nimrod103 wrote:
doolally wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:These two changes look like making driving more risky and worrying, which perhaps is the intention.

There is no doubt about the intention of a pedestrian if they are in the road at a junction, but loitering on a street corner? Will the driver have to assume that any pedestrian at a street corner is about to jump into the road?

Does the rule change on cyclists mean that they can quietly shimmy up the inside of stationary traffic, and demand to have priority to go straight on, when the car at the front of the queue wants to turn left? I'll have to look over my left shouler before pulling away in future.

Why "in future"? Isn't it the common-sense thing to do regardless of the law or the highway code?

doolally


Not sure what you are getting at. When pulling away from the kerb, it is correct to look over one's right shoulder.

When pulling away at controlled junctions it is not normal behaviour to look backward over one's right shoulder, nor one's left.
But in future, it will be required that one looks backward over one's left shoulder, because the cyclist undertaking on the kerbside has effectively created their own traffic lane, and by turning left you (the car driver) are crossing over it.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I believe it is common-sense to be aware of all that is happening to the right and left of you when sitting stationary at a junction. I don't think the highway code or the law is required for you to ensure that you are aware that a cyclist, child or whatever might be near to you when you are turning left or right.

doolally

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Re: Highway Code changes

#432008

Postby AF62 » August 2nd, 2021, 11:48 am

swill453 wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Not sure what you are getting at. When pulling away from the kerb, it is correct to look over one's right shoulder.

When pulling away at controlled junctions it is not normal behaviour to look backward over one's right shoulder, nor one's left.
But in future, it will be required that one looks backward over one's left shoulder, because the cyclist undertaking on the kerbside has effectively created their own traffic lane, and by turning left you (the car driver) are crossing over it.

Any time you're sitting at traffic lights, a cyclist could, right now, quite legally have filtered up the left side of you, and be intending to go straight ahead. Anyone who turns left without checking is highly irresponsible. I always make a specific point of it.

Scott.


And the 'advance cycle' stop line officially encourages such behaviour, because if you followed the strict letter of the law, the only entrance to the advance stop line area is up the left hand side of the traffic.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#432014

Postby swill453 » August 2nd, 2021, 12:31 pm

Lootman wrote:That a vehicle turning right actually moves to the right if it intends to turn right. Therefore a cyclist can not creep up undetected on the right for the simple reason that there is no room.(*)

And this is the case even if there is a designated bike lane to the right - the turning vehicle should and indeed must occupy that bike lane, whilst the cyclist holds back.

Utter madness in my opinion. Fortunately not the rule here, I'd hope someone doing that (blocking the cycle lane) would be prosecuted.

Advance stop lines in this country encourage filtering by bicycles, and should be the default where the road layout allows (in my opinion).

Scott. (mostly a car driver rather than a cyclist, but support giving the most vulnerable road users the most priority)

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Re: Highway Code changes

#432015

Postby Lootman » August 2nd, 2021, 12:39 pm

swill453 wrote:
Lootman wrote:That a vehicle turning right actually moves to the right if it intends to turn right. Therefore a cyclist can not creep up undetected on the right for the simple reason that there is no room.(*)

And this is the case even if there is a designated bike lane to the right - the turning vehicle should and indeed must occupy that bike lane, whilst the cyclist holds back.

Utter madness in my opinion. Fortunately not the rule here, I'd hope someone doing that (blocking the cycle lane) would be prosecuted.

The way it is organised is that the bike lane is deemed to end a few metres from the junction. The solid white line changes to a dotted white line to signify that. So no bike lane is blocked, legally. The imaginary continuation of the bike lane is physically blocked, for the cyclist's own safety! A vehicle that fails to "block" the lane in that situation could be ticketed.

Of course whether you like that or not probably depends on how pro-cyclist you are. In fact my sense from these changes is that they only consulted with cyclists and pedestrians. I think the proposed highway code changes will make things more dangerous for cyclists IF they interpret that as being able to sail merrily onwards without trying to be aware of turning vehicles. Or pedestrians think they can leap out into the road anywhere and simply let traffic screech to a halt.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#432020

Postby AF62 » August 2nd, 2021, 1:32 pm

Lootman wrote:Or pedestrians think they can leap out into the road anywhere and simply let traffic screech to a halt.


My preference when crossing a junction, particularly in London, was to have a sharp metal tipped umbrella pointing forward.

It was amazing how many drivers suddenly recalled both the existence of rule 170 and how their brakes worked when their shiny paintwork was at risk. Similarly with cyclists who ignored a red light or how pedestrians had priority on zebra crossings.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#432021

Postby swill453 » August 2nd, 2021, 1:40 pm

Lootman wrote:Of course whether you like that or not probably depends on how pro-cyclist you are. In fact my sense from these changes is that they only consulted with cyclists and pedestrians. I think the proposed highway code changes will make things more dangerous for cyclists IF they interpret that as being able to sail merrily onwards without trying to be aware of turning vehicles. Or pedestrians think they can leap out into the road anywhere and simply let traffic screech to a halt.

As I'm sure you're aware, as you have pointed it out yourself in the past, your use of language shows your bias.

Your "sailing merrily" and "leaping out" could be described by someone else as vulnerable road users simply and calmly asserting their priority.

Scott.

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Re: Highway Code changes

#432023

Postby Nimrod103 » August 2nd, 2021, 1:49 pm

AF62 wrote:
swill453 wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Not sure what you are getting at. When pulling away from the kerb, it is correct to look over one's right shoulder.

When pulling away at controlled junctions it is not normal behaviour to look backward over one's right shoulder, nor one's left.
But in future, it will be required that one looks backward over one's left shoulder, because the cyclist undertaking on the kerbside has effectively created their own traffic lane, and by turning left you (the car driver) are crossing over it.

Any time you're sitting at traffic lights, a cyclist could, right now, quite legally have filtered up the left side of you, and be intending to go straight ahead. Anyone who turns left without checking is highly irresponsible. I always make a specific point of it.

Scott.


And the 'advance cycle' stop line officially encourages such behaviour, because if you followed the strict letter of the law, the only entrance to the advance stop line area is up the left hand side of the traffic.


I may be wrong, but I thought advance stop lines for cyclists would only be present where there is a clearly demarcated cycle lane up the left hand side leading to it.

Just to be clear, if there are cyclists in a clearly demarcated cycle lane, I take especial care. But under this possible change to the law, the mere presence of a cyclist makes it a cycle lane, whether marked or not. So a cyclist approaching rapidly up the inside has right of way going straight on, when the car at the head of the queue turning left may be unaware of their presence until a collision occurs.


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