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Very dangerous road signage and markings
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- Lemon Half
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Very dangerous road signage and markings
I have been using this roundabout by Heathrow for the past few months and began to wonder why when on the roundabout I was often almost hit by cars joining from the A3044.
This google map streetview explains things, no white lines and no signage to give way...is this crazy or just normal these days?
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4629424 ... 384!8i8192
This google map streetview explains things, no white lines and no signage to give way...is this crazy or just normal these days?
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4629424 ... 384!8i8192
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
Looks like new tarmac that hasn't had the road markings painted back on yet.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
The Google street view is from Jan '21. There are multiple views going back to 2008. The lines come and go randomly over a time scale of a year or so. Clearly, they are having trouble getting paint to stick and need more frequent maintenance, or a new design that does not require so much maintenance.
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- Lemon Half
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
It's the lack of give way or any other signage too that compounds the error.
John
John
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
It's a very obvious roundabout so you (collectively, not "you") would have to be pretty dumb not to realise the potential arrival of other traffic to your right.
Then again remind yourself how dumb the average driver might be (and then reinforce that thought when you realise half of them are even dumber than that!).
Then again remind yourself how dumb the average driver might be (and then reinforce that thought when you realise half of them are even dumber than that!).
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
dealtn wrote:It's a very obvious roundabout so you (collectively, not "you") would have to be pretty dumb not to realise the potential arrival of other traffic to your right.
Then again remind yourself how dumb the average driver might be (and then reinforce that thought when you realise half of them are even dumber than that!).
There is also a directional sign further back along the road which clearly shows the junction ahead is a roundabout.
Nevertheless the lack of Give Way markings could make it tricky to work out exactly where to wait...
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
dealtn wrote:It's a very obvious roundabout so you (collectively, not "you") would have to be pretty dumb not to realise the potential arrival of other traffic to your right.
Trouble is it isn't that unusual to find roundabouts where you don't have to give way when approaching if turning left, like this one - https://goo.gl/maps/q4kGLq5mTQ67DqvbA and the absence of a Give Way line might confuse some into thinking they don't have to.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
The only clue that anyone should give way that I can see is the lack of give-way lines on the roundabout itself. There are plenty of junctions that are similar to roundabouts except for the priority, for example, https://www.google.com/maps/place/Witham/@51.7856924,0.6183085,205m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d8e36e312b8583:0x554119b4ca7bfad9!8m2!3d51.7977875!4d0.637207.
Even quiet country roads usually have give-way lines. The only junctions on major roads that I can think of without give-way (or stop) lines are where traffic is signal-controlled, for example, https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7370783,0.4617874,3a,75y,58.78h,85.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIOM6sV1LghQE5sMxPTNE6g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 .
Julian F. G. W.
Even quiet country roads usually have give-way lines. The only junctions on major roads that I can think of without give-way (or stop) lines are where traffic is signal-controlled, for example, https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7370783,0.4617874,3a,75y,58.78h,85.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIOM6sV1LghQE5sMxPTNE6g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 .
Julian F. G. W.
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- The full Lemon
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
AF62 wrote:dealtn wrote:It's a very obvious roundabout so you (collectively, not "you") would have to be pretty dumb not to realise the potential arrival of other traffic to your right.
Trouble is it isn't that unusual to find roundabouts where you don't have to give way when approaching if turning left, like this one - https://goo.gl/maps/q4kGLq5mTQ67DqvbA and the absence of a Give Way line might confuse some into thinking they don't have to.
I can see a special case perhaps for a left turn as in that example. But surely the general rule at any roundabout is that you yield to traffic already on the roundabout. Whether there are markings that indicate that or not is besides the point, although I can see how it might confuse some.
Yielding does not necessarily require stopping, only slowing down and looking out.
Of course as always there is also the de facto rule: "Might is Right". The bigger you are the less the rules matter.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
I agree the signage is very poor, but 'step' back a few clicks to the approach...
https://goo.gl/maps/N572dwG7ymLYCF5k6
Now that looks a lot like a roundabout to me.
When the lights fail here in Plymouth the majority fail to give way to circulating traffic, as it is the main drag out of town.
https://goo.gl/maps/SnRpFgCarpLjSRXc9
Paul
https://goo.gl/maps/N572dwG7ymLYCF5k6
Now that looks a lot like a roundabout to me.
When the lights fail here in Plymouth the majority fail to give way to circulating traffic, as it is the main drag out of town.
https://goo.gl/maps/SnRpFgCarpLjSRXc9
Paul
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
That streetview rather suggests that if you are on the A3044 and there is traffic in front of you, you could be unaware that there is any roundabout involved in your progress.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
How do we know if something is a roundabout or not?
Is there a definitive list in some government office we are expected to acquire using FOI or other means and then memorize?
Is there some definitive sign or other construct that is posted on all roundabouts?
Is it a wide number of cues, including signage, lane deflection, splitter islands, road markings, a round (or oval, or square, or pentagonal, ... ) island that overall have the gestalt of a roundabout?
I suspect it is the latter. And that there is a continuum, in several dimensions, between roundabouts and things that share some
properties of roundabouts, but are not roundabouts. E.g the clockwise half of the M25 and the Place de l'Étoile.
Because it is a continuum there is a possibility of things that are ambiguous. Some will think they are and some will not and there is no definitive answer. It is incumbent on traffic engineers to make sure ambiguous roundabouts do not exist.
The example on the A3044 has very few of the cues that say "roundabout". How do you come to the conclusion that when the lights fail it becomes a roundabout? When traffic lights fail you should fall back on the protocol for failed lights (which seems to be missing from the highway code), not on the protocol for the road layout from some former time when there was different signage, different lane alignments and different road markings.
Is there a definitive list in some government office we are expected to acquire using FOI or other means and then memorize?
Is there some definitive sign or other construct that is posted on all roundabouts?
Is it a wide number of cues, including signage, lane deflection, splitter islands, road markings, a round (or oval, or square, or pentagonal, ... ) island that overall have the gestalt of a roundabout?
I suspect it is the latter. And that there is a continuum, in several dimensions, between roundabouts and things that share some
properties of roundabouts, but are not roundabouts. E.g the clockwise half of the M25 and the Place de l'Étoile.
Because it is a continuum there is a possibility of things that are ambiguous. Some will think they are and some will not and there is no definitive answer. It is incumbent on traffic engineers to make sure ambiguous roundabouts do not exist.
The example on the A3044 has very few of the cues that say "roundabout". How do you come to the conclusion that when the lights fail it becomes a roundabout? When traffic lights fail you should fall back on the protocol for failed lights (which seems to be missing from the highway code), not on the protocol for the road layout from some former time when there was different signage, different lane alignments and different road markings.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
9873210 wrote:How do we know if something is a roundabout or not?....
The example on the A3044 has very few of the cues that say "roundabout".
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4615734 ... 384!8i8192
looks pretty convincing to me.
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- Lemon Half
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
9873210 wrote:Is it a wide number of cues, including signage, lane deflection, splitter islands, road markings, a round (or oval, or square, or pentagonal, ... ) island that overall have the gestalt of a roundabout?
I suspect it is the latter. And that there is a continuum, in several dimensions, between roundabouts and things that share some
properties of roundabouts, but are not roundabouts. E.g the clockwise half of the M25 and the Place de l'Étoile.
cant disagree with that.
here's the Magic Roundabout, swindon
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5624927,-1.771434,3a,75y,0.74h,73.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbtBd_-gN1F2xSmbfyfbnsg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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- Lemon Half
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
Just off to go round that roundabout again...wish me luck!
John
John
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings
genou wrote:9873210 wrote:How do we know if something is a roundabout or not?....
The example on the A3044 has very few of the cues that say "roundabout".
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4615734 ... 384!8i8192
looks pretty convincing to me.
My mistake , I got my roads mixed up.
I meant the A374 first mentioned by DrFfybes.
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