Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

Very dangerous road signage and markings

Passion, instruction, buying, care, maintenance and more, any form of vehicle discussion is welcome here
redsturgeon
Lemon Half
Posts: 8910
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 1309 times
Been thanked: 3665 times

Very dangerous road signage and markings

#462657

Postby redsturgeon » December 2nd, 2021, 3:14 pm

I have been using this roundabout by Heathrow for the past few months and began to wonder why when on the roundabout I was often almost hit by cars joining from the A3044.

This google map streetview explains things, no white lines and no signage to give way...is this crazy or just normal these days?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4629424 ... 384!8i8192

bluedonkey
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1789
Joined: November 13th, 2016, 3:41 pm
Has thanked: 1389 times
Been thanked: 652 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#462662

Postby bluedonkey » December 2nd, 2021, 3:31 pm

Looks like new tarmac that hasn't had the road markings painted back on yet.

9873210
Lemon Slice
Posts: 984
Joined: December 9th, 2016, 6:44 am
Has thanked: 226 times
Been thanked: 295 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#462686

Postby 9873210 » December 2nd, 2021, 4:22 pm

The Google street view is from Jan '21. There are multiple views going back to 2008. The lines come and go randomly over a time scale of a year or so. Clearly, they are having trouble getting paint to stick and need more frequent maintenance, or a new design that does not require so much maintenance.

redsturgeon
Lemon Half
Posts: 8910
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 1309 times
Been thanked: 3665 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#462689

Postby redsturgeon » December 2nd, 2021, 4:29 pm

It's the lack of give way or any other signage too that compounds the error.

John

dealtn
Lemon Half
Posts: 6072
Joined: November 21st, 2016, 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 441 times
Been thanked: 2324 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#462697

Postby dealtn » December 2nd, 2021, 4:42 pm

It's a very obvious roundabout so you (collectively, not "you") would have to be pretty dumb not to realise the potential arrival of other traffic to your right.

Then again remind yourself how dumb the average driver might be (and then reinforce that thought when you realise half of them are even dumber than that!).

chas49
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1935
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:25 am
Has thanked: 216 times
Been thanked: 456 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#462706

Postby chas49 » December 2nd, 2021, 5:36 pm

dealtn wrote:It's a very obvious roundabout so you (collectively, not "you") would have to be pretty dumb not to realise the potential arrival of other traffic to your right.

Then again remind yourself how dumb the average driver might be (and then reinforce that thought when you realise half of them are even dumber than that!).


There is also a directional sign further back along the road which clearly shows the junction ahead is a roundabout.

Nevertheless the lack of Give Way markings could make it tricky to work out exactly where to wait...

AF62
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3499
Joined: November 27th, 2016, 8:45 am
Has thanked: 131 times
Been thanked: 1277 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#462707

Postby AF62 » December 2nd, 2021, 5:38 pm

dealtn wrote:It's a very obvious roundabout so you (collectively, not "you") would have to be pretty dumb not to realise the potential arrival of other traffic to your right.


Trouble is it isn't that unusual to find roundabouts where you don't have to give way when approaching if turning left, like this one - https://goo.gl/maps/q4kGLq5mTQ67DqvbA and the absence of a Give Way line might confuse some into thinking they don't have to.

jfgw
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2539
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:36 pm
Has thanked: 1097 times
Been thanked: 1146 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#462980

Postby jfgw » December 3rd, 2021, 8:28 pm

The only clue that anyone should give way that I can see is the lack of give-way lines on the roundabout itself. There are plenty of junctions that are similar to roundabouts except for the priority, for example, https://www.google.com/maps/place/Witham/@51.7856924,0.6183085,205m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d8e36e312b8583:0x554119b4ca7bfad9!8m2!3d51.7977875!4d0.637207.

Even quiet country roads usually have give-way lines. The only junctions on major roads that I can think of without give-way (or stop) lines are where traffic is signal-controlled, for example, https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7370783,0.4617874,3a,75y,58.78h,85.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIOM6sV1LghQE5sMxPTNE6g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 .


Julian F. G. W.

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 18674
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 628 times
Been thanked: 6557 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#462988

Postby Lootman » December 3rd, 2021, 8:59 pm

AF62 wrote:
dealtn wrote:It's a very obvious roundabout so you (collectively, not "you") would have to be pretty dumb not to realise the potential arrival of other traffic to your right.

Trouble is it isn't that unusual to find roundabouts where you don't have to give way when approaching if turning left, like this one - https://goo.gl/maps/q4kGLq5mTQ67DqvbA and the absence of a Give Way line might confuse some into thinking they don't have to.

I can see a special case perhaps for a left turn as in that example. But surely the general rule at any roundabout is that you yield to traffic already on the roundabout. Whether there are markings that indicate that or not is besides the point, although I can see how it might confuse some.

Yielding does not necessarily require stopping, only slowing down and looking out.

Of course as always there is also the de facto rule: "Might is Right". The bigger you are the less the rules matter. :D

DrFfybes
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3731
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 10:25 pm
Has thanked: 1171 times
Been thanked: 1964 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#463025

Postby DrFfybes » December 4th, 2021, 8:59 am

I agree the signage is very poor, but 'step' back a few clicks to the approach...

https://goo.gl/maps/N572dwG7ymLYCF5k6

Now that looks a lot like a roundabout to me.

When the lights fail here in Plymouth the majority fail to give way to circulating traffic, as it is the main drag out of town.

https://goo.gl/maps/SnRpFgCarpLjSRXc9

Paul

stockton
Lemon Slice
Posts: 326
Joined: November 30th, 2016, 7:19 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#463145

Postby stockton » December 4th, 2021, 7:23 pm

That streetview rather suggests that if you are on the A3044 and there is traffic in front of you, you could be unaware that there is any roundabout involved in your progress.

9873210
Lemon Slice
Posts: 984
Joined: December 9th, 2016, 6:44 am
Has thanked: 226 times
Been thanked: 295 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#463192

Postby 9873210 » December 5th, 2021, 3:20 am

How do we know if something is a roundabout or not?

Is there a definitive list in some government office we are expected to acquire using FOI or other means and then memorize?

Is there some definitive sign or other construct that is posted on all roundabouts?

Is it a wide number of cues, including signage, lane deflection, splitter islands, road markings, a round (or oval, or square, or pentagonal, ... ) island that overall have the gestalt of a roundabout?

I suspect it is the latter. And that there is a continuum, in several dimensions, between roundabouts and things that share some
properties of roundabouts, but are not roundabouts. E.g the clockwise half of the M25 and the Place de l'Étoile.

Because it is a continuum there is a possibility of things that are ambiguous. Some will think they are and some will not and there is no definitive answer. It is incumbent on traffic engineers to make sure ambiguous roundabouts do not exist.

The example on the A3044 has very few of the cues that say "roundabout". How do you come to the conclusion that when the lights fail it becomes a roundabout? When traffic lights fail you should fall back on the protocol for failed lights (which seems to be missing from the highway code), not on the protocol for the road layout from some former time when there was different signage, different lane alignments and different road markings.

genou
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1070
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 177 times
Been thanked: 370 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#463205

Postby genou » December 5th, 2021, 9:55 am

9873210 wrote:How do we know if something is a roundabout or not?....

The example on the A3044 has very few of the cues that say "roundabout".



https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4615734 ... 384!8i8192

looks pretty convincing to me.

didds
Lemon Half
Posts: 5243
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:04 pm
Has thanked: 3241 times
Been thanked: 1018 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#463225

Postby didds » December 5th, 2021, 11:09 am

9873210 wrote:Is it a wide number of cues, including signage, lane deflection, splitter islands, road markings, a round (or oval, or square, or pentagonal, ... ) island that overall have the gestalt of a roundabout?

I suspect it is the latter. And that there is a continuum, in several dimensions, between roundabouts and things that share some
properties of roundabouts, but are not roundabouts. E.g the clockwise half of the M25 and the Place de l'Étoile.


cant disagree with that.

here's the Magic Roundabout, swindon

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5624927,-1.771434,3a,75y,0.74h,73.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbtBd_-gN1F2xSmbfyfbnsg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

redsturgeon
Lemon Half
Posts: 8910
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 1309 times
Been thanked: 3665 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#463249

Postby redsturgeon » December 5th, 2021, 12:44 pm

Just off to go round that roundabout again...wish me luck!

John

9873210
Lemon Slice
Posts: 984
Joined: December 9th, 2016, 6:44 am
Has thanked: 226 times
Been thanked: 295 times

Re: Very dangerous road signage and markings

#463311

Postby 9873210 » December 5th, 2021, 4:57 pm

genou wrote:
9873210 wrote:How do we know if something is a roundabout or not?....

The example on the A3044 has very few of the cues that say "roundabout".



https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4615734 ... 384!8i8192

looks pretty convincing to me.


My mistake , I got my roads mixed up.

I meant the A374 first mentioned by DrFfybes.


Return to “Cars, Driving, Motorbikes or any Transport”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 10 guests