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Cars becoming like phones

Passion, instruction, buying, care, maintenance and more, any form of vehicle discussion is welcome here
Arborbridge
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Cars becoming like phones

#475018

Postby Arborbridge » January 21st, 2022, 12:10 pm

I read an interview with the CEO of VW Herbery Diess*, and in it he confirmed the thoughts I've be having for a while about the directio EV development will take.

It occurred to me that EVs (and cars in general) are becoming utterly dependent on software, and software updates and on central control of your car. So, what is there to prevent a manufacturer from switching off your systems unless you agree to pay a monthly charge?

There is more than a strong hint of that in the interview when they discuss possible future "income streams" - i.e. ways of putting their hands in your pockets. It will be benignly cloaked, of course, in weasel language about exciting possibilities for "refreshing" your motoring experience, but it seems to me a most foul development and not at all what VW branches are currently saying - that is, software updates will be free for the lifetime of your car. Their idea of the lifetime of a car, probably extends only to the end of the warranty.

We are used to paying subscriptions for everything, and from what I've heard the younger generation do not see anything perverse about this idea as relating to cars. But to pay £40k for a car and then be told that will not function properly without some sort of pay per use add on, seems wholly unwelcome.

What to others think?

* I can't post the link but it was an interview on theverge.com entitled "How Volkswagen can invent itself as an EV company"

Arb.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475037

Postby bungeejumper » January 21st, 2022, 12:48 pm


Midsmartin
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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475051

Postby Midsmartin » January 21st, 2022, 1:17 pm

And how long will your car be "supported"?

What if your future self-driving ev (I know you didn't mention self driving) relies on software updates of maps, speed limits, or highway code changes. But oops, sorry, we don't support your 8 year old car any more, sir. You'll have to buy a new car in order to drive legally.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475078

Postby Urbandreamer » January 21st, 2022, 2:19 pm

Arborbridge wrote:I read an interview with the CEO of VW Herbery Diess*, and in it he confirmed the thoughts I've be having for a while about the directio EV development will take.

It occurred to me that EVs (and cars in general) are becoming utterly dependent on software, and software updates and on central control of your car. So, what is there to prevent a manufacturer from switching off your systems unless you agree to pay a monthly charge?


Well, cars have been dependent upon software since the 90's, though it was not usually updated during the life of the car. Many have/had service warning lights that indicate that the car is due a service, though you no longer need to go to a dealer to have them turned off after a service.

Like phones? Well my mobile phone is not designed to complain if the battery is changed, unlike some manufacturers. It really is up to us. You can buy a car were the manufacturer states that the owner is not permitted* to open the hood and doesn't fit a restraining strut for the safety of those changing the pollen filter. Or you can buy from a different manufacturer. The same is true of mobile phones and a vast number of other products.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBVqUuzUWEY
*Screen shot of manufacturers statement at 2:05

As for your suggestion that a manufacturer might update the software to the detriment of the owner. I believe that Apple were fined for that, yet people STILL buy their phones and trust them.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51413724

It's very much a case of, you pays your money and makes your choice.

Arborbridge
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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475113

Postby Arborbridge » January 21st, 2022, 3:40 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:I read an interview with the CEO of VW Herbery Diess*, and in it he confirmed the thoughts I've be having for a while about the directio EV development will take.

It occurred to me that EVs (and cars in general) are becoming utterly dependent on software, and software updates and on central control of your car. So, what is there to prevent a manufacturer from switching off your systems unless you agree to pay a monthly charge?


Well, cars have been dependent upon software since the 90's, though it was not usually updated during the life of the car. Many have/had service warning lights that indicate that the car is due a service, though you no longer need to go to a dealer to have them turned off after a service.

Like phones? Well my mobile phone is not designed to complain if the battery is changed, unlike some manufacturers. It really is up to us. You can buy a car were the manufacturer states that the owner is not permitted* to open the hood and doesn't fit a restraining strut for the safety of those changing the pollen filter. Or you can buy from a different manufacturer. The same is true of mobile phones and a vast number of other products.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBVqUuzUWEY
*Screen shot of manufacturers statement at 2:05

As for your suggestion that a manufacturer might update the software to the detriment of the owner. I believe that Apple were fined for that, yet people STILL buy their phones and trust them.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51413724

It's very much a case of, you pays your money and makes your choice.


Being software dependent in a relativiely minor way, yes, but the future developments in dependency will be of an order of magnitude greater - and you eventually may not have any choice in the matter. I wouldn't have know about this - it was only a fantasy in my imagination - until this week when I read what VW thinks the future may hold.

In my view, all companies and governments, will be exploring how they can arbitage the (perceived?)difference in driving cost between EVs and ICEs. They will badger away until they've milked the difference for themselves.

And the difference between a car and a mobile phone strikes me as rather imporant in terms of cost. One can afford to throw away a mobile, but not a nearly new car. These cost so much that most people will want to run them until they have justified that enormous cost.

Arb.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475122

Postby monabri » January 21st, 2022, 4:06 pm

https://youtu.be/BF-hQ774bIk

( from the sci fi film "Upgrade").

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475131

Postby DrFfybes » January 21st, 2022, 4:31 pm

Midsmartin wrote:And how long will your car be "supported"?

What if your future self-driving ev (I know you didn't mention self driving) relies on software updates of maps, speed limits, or highway code changes. But oops, sorry, we don't support your 8 year old car any more, sir. You'll have to buy a new car in order to drive legally.


Interesting - my old phone has buttons and Just Works. This week we needed to replace MrsF's old Samsung galaxy as the OS is too old to connect to free wifi, support banking tokens, etc - all the things she signed up to that I didn't bother with. Now we replaced it with a late 2019 Galaxy S10, recently superceded, but had depreciated like a 1980s Jag. It is an issue, old digital stuff is obsolete whereas older analogue stuff isn't

Arb:
And the difference between a car and a mobile phone strikes me as rather imporant in terms of cost. One can afford to throw away a mobile, but not a nearly new car. These cost so much that most people will want to run them until they have justified that enormous cost.


Yup, although a Galaxy Z-fold gets you an interesting choice of cars, plus change..

https://www.pistonheads.com/regulars/ph ... year/45124

Paul

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475166

Postby Urbandreamer » January 21st, 2022, 5:56 pm

Arborbridge wrote:Being software dependent in a relativiely minor way, yes, but the future developments in dependency will be of an order of magnitude greater - and you eventually may not have any choice in the matter. I wouldn't have know about this - it was only a fantasy in my imagination - until this week when I read what VW thinks the future may hold.
Arb.


While I can agree with the latter part of your statement, I hardly think that the engine management system is that minor that it can be done without. We have had "no choice" in that matter since catalytic convertors were made compulsory. You need to carefully control the amount of O2 that runs through them or they are quickly destroyed.

For what it's worth my training and job is as a control engineer. We can thank software for the huge increase in MPG, partially for reduction in emissions and that engines last longer.

Traction control is hardly uncommon and managed by software.

Huge amounts of software are simply not obvious, unlike self parking, driving, lane control etc.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475172

Postby JohnB » January 21st, 2022, 6:14 pm

The EU are keen on introducing Right to Repair rules, keeping your car going for an expected lifetime of 15 years could be covered by requiring software support or releasing details to the public domain for third parties to pick up.

This has already been suggested for phones, but I think there is less concern as the residual value of a phone a few years after its software updates stop is viewed to be zero, so not an issue to the consumer.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475175

Postby scrumpyjack » January 21st, 2022, 6:19 pm

of course Tesla already charge a large fee for FSD software, when it doesn't yet Full self drive, and you have to pay again when your car expires and you buy a new one.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475184

Postby Urbandreamer » January 21st, 2022, 6:44 pm

Speaking of phones, I thought that I'd check a few things out that I "sorta" knew.

Anyone remember Blackberry phones? Well guess what they are doing.

Here is something from 4 ears ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUuap0Vq13k
Here is something a bit more recent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47oLr8C9ndQ

Ps as I "sorta" recall "Research in motion" was branded Blackberry, changed their name to Blackberry, then bought QNX when the phones were losing market share. Their systems are in many cars now, though I think mostly handling the support functions like satnav, instruments and entertainment.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475186

Postby swill453 » January 21st, 2022, 6:45 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:of course Tesla already charge a large fee for FSD software, when it doesn't yet Full self drive, and you have to pay again when your car expires and you buy a new one.

Really? They're charging now for something that won't work for about 20 years?

Scott.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475191

Postby Howard » January 21st, 2022, 7:01 pm

I was put off leasing a Tesla LR because Tesla turn off features such as SatNav traffic delay predictions after one year! This seemed a rip-off to me. Especially as these are free with a number of phone SatNavs.

After that it's a monthly charge. And a Tesla is a lot more than £40k! They bundle useful features with some fairly mindless rubbish. :(

Some BMW internet connectivity features are also turned off after 3 years, but their charges to rent these are moderate - at the moment!

I don't know about other car brands, but they are probably planning this too.

A bit like Microsoft Office 365?

regards

Howard

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475192

Postby Urbandreamer » January 21st, 2022, 7:07 pm

swill453 wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:of course Tesla already charge a large fee for FSD software, when it doesn't yet Full self drive, and you have to pay again when your car expires and you buy a new one.

Really? They're charging now for something that won't work for about 20 years?

Scott.


Actually they are charging for something that "almost" works*. They claim, and have, provided software updates to software bought.

Scrumpy however is not entirely wrong. Tesla have a really bad rep with customer service.
It's also a FACT, that software can't reroute wires or make new cameras turn up.
There is a really STRONG argument that they could do with a couple of cameras pointing sideways at the very front of the car, for pulling out of junctions. If a car doesn't have them, you will likely need a new car for them to work.

*There are some great youtube videos of people using or trying out autopilot. Some are simply using it as they talk about investment. Others find out how it copes with difficult situations. The latter often describe it as like a learner driver.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475225

Postby 9873210 » January 21st, 2022, 9:52 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:It's also a FACT, that software can't reroute wires or make new cameras turn up.

Software could access the Internet and hack into any cameras in the neighborhood. :evil: That would probably give 99% coverage of blind spots.

I don't think that would be a good idea, but it may help you understand the types of lateral thinking that you can get when you turn smart people loose without adequate guidelines. There's nothing wrong with imaginative solutions, but you need somebody to point out you've just created a worse problem. In my experience this sort of thing goes up the chain of command, but the people near the bottom admire the ingenuity, while the higher ups don't understand what is going on and tick the "problem solved" box.

(I have also used software to work around missing traces on a circuit board. I could not make wires turn up, but I could use the wires that were there in ways the designer never intended.)

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475230

Postby Arborbridge » January 21st, 2022, 10:55 pm

9873210 wrote: There's nothing wrong with imaginative solutions, but you need somebody to point out you've just created a worse problem. In my experience this sort of thing goes up the chain of command, but the people near the bottom admire the ingenuity, while the higher ups don't understand what is going on and tick the "problem solved" box.

(


Which seems to have happened with smart motorways :(

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475234

Postby Arborbridge » January 21st, 2022, 11:06 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:Being software dependent in a relativiely minor way, yes, but the future developments in dependency will be of an order of magnitude greater - and you eventually may not have any choice in the matter. I wouldn't have know about this - it was only a fantasy in my imagination - until this week when I read what VW thinks the future may hold.
Arb.


While I can agree with the latter part of your statement, I hardly think that the engine management system is that minor that it can be done without. We have had "no choice" in that matter since catalytic convertors were made compulsory. You need to carefully control the amount of O2 that runs through them or they are quickly destroyed.

For what it's worth my training and job is as a control engineer. We can thank software for the huge increase in MPG, partially for reduction in emissions and that engines last longer.

Traction control is hardly uncommon and managed by software.

Huge amounts of software are simply not obvious, unlike self parking, driving, lane control etc.


OK, I accept all that, though the point is we've bought those things fully formed and they work for years apart from the occasional part replacement, such as a control unit.
Now, we are may be buying software which with built-in redundancy which will require continual updates. Going down this computer-phone route is distinctly different*. The strategic thinkers in the car industry have spotted an opportunity for a huge revenue stream which did not exist before they had cars so dependent on software that they could in effect be "turned off" from HQ if you didn't pay their "danegeld".
I don't know if this potential is in ICE's too, but it's a though building EVs has shown the way not to cheaper motoring, but to more expensive motoring by stimulating this new approach.

Arb.
*as was pointed out, it's akin to the difference between Office and 365. That's why I will stick to the older Office as long as possible. Paying a licence and never owning something is a new-age shame, a catch penny which robs us all.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475259

Postby Urbandreamer » January 22nd, 2022, 7:56 am

Arborbridge wrote:[I don't know if this potential is in ICE's too, but it's a though building EVs has shown the way not to cheaper motoring, but to more expensive motoring by stimulating this new approach.

Arb.
*as was pointed out, it's akin to the difference between Office and 365. That's why I will stick to the older Office as long as possible. Paying a licence and never owning something is a new-age shame, a catch penny which robs us all.


As I said, you pays your money and makes your choice.

Between Microsoft Office or a competitor like LibreOffice or Google's online office software. An EV where you rent the battery or one where you own the battery. Where you own the entire car or you lease it. Between a company that you trust and one that you distrust.

Some people are even known to drive cars old enough that the don't have, or are legally required to have, seat belts. Though they may pay a charge for driving them through a town that has implemented a ULEZ, like London.

Life is full of choices.

For what it's worth, as far as I know I used no Microsoft products when writing this post.

Can anyone provide some link to a car company, even if it's Tesla, behaving in the manner suggested in this thread.

NO, not charging a huge sum for replacement batteries or charging a lease on them like Renault do. You might be interested in who has the responsibility for disposing of an EV's battery. Hint, it's not the car owner.

No, a company, as suggested by the OP, charging for software "upgrades" that they require you to take and that you were unaware of at the time of purchase. I would think that there might be a legal case to answer in such an event.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475272

Postby Arborbridge » January 22nd, 2022, 9:41 am

Urbandreamer wrote:Can anyone provide some link to a car company, even if it's Tesla, behaving in the manner suggested in this thread.

NO, not charging a huge sum for replacement batteries or charging a lease on them like Renault do. You might be interested in who has the responsibility for disposing of an EV's battery. Hint, it's not the car owner.

No, a company, as suggested by the OP, charging for software "upgrades" that they require you to take and that you were unaware of at the time of purchase. I would think that there might be a legal case to answer in such an event.


This interview - and my thoughts - were entirely considering future developments. I'm not saying this has happened now except in a very limited and trivial sense (subscription to an internet channel, I believe, via infrotainment) but I am musing on what might happen . I thought that was also clear in the interview.

By the time it happens, I might well have given up cars through old age :( That's also a reason I want to try an EV instead of waiting for hydrogen fuel to arrive - I might live to see peak EV, but not peak H.

Arb.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475276

Postby quelquod » January 22nd, 2022, 9:57 am

Paying for software upgrades to cars is nothing new. Many (most?) cars have required paid-for upgrades for many years should you want your built-in navigation system map to remain (almost) current. Higher-end manufacturers like BMW and Mercedes have for years had a whole raft of software frills which require annual relicensing. Should BMW issue a software update to my present car I will normally only get it installed out of the warranty period if I pay for it. None of these though prevent using the car for its basic function which is I think the OP’s concern.


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