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Cars becoming like phones

Passion, instruction, buying, care, maintenance and more, any form of vehicle discussion is welcome here
88V8
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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475284

Postby 88V8 » January 22nd, 2022, 10:57 am

Arborbridge wrote:It occurred to me that EVs (and cars in general) are becoming utterly dependent on software, and software updates and on central control of your car. So, what is there to prevent a manufacturer from switching off your systems unless you agree to pay a monthly charge?

Nothing.
After all this iniquitous business model is already rife in televisions, is it not? And indeed in phones, although not my Nokia 3110.
And with our throwaway mentality, I see no one on the streets protesting about it.

The car will become just another throwaway.

V8 (cars 1991, 1974, 1963, no software hehheh)

Arborbridge
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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475309

Postby Arborbridge » January 22nd, 2022, 12:30 pm

quelquod wrote:Paying for software upgrades to cars is nothing new. Many (most?) cars have required paid-for upgrades for many years should you want your built-in navigation system map to remain (almost) current. Higher-end manufacturers like BMW and Mercedes have for years had a whole raft of software frills which require annual relicensing. Should BMW issue a software update to my present car I will normally only get it installed out of the warranty period if I pay for it. None of these though prevent using the car for its basic function which is I think the OP’s concern.


Really?

I've had three BMWs two SAABS two Mercs and never been asked to pay for any upgrades.

Of course, "frills" is up to you, but I'm talking the possibility of essential software being held to ransom at some time in the future. Pay for fripperies if you like but that is a hardly a precedent for what is being threatened in future - this is a whole order of magnitude greater. Pay £40k for a car and then to find sometime later the software which "makes it go" is not "supported" after three years is beyond doubt a racket. And just think what this will do for the less well off in society who need to buy older cars but could not afford to pay this danegeld.

Hopefully, the EU might step in to limit what the companies can do - though I expect any Tory government will drag it heals as usual, relying on a "voluntary code" or ordinary people making sensible choices. Like walking or waiting for a non-existent bus to take the kids to school.


Arb.

Arborbridge
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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475311

Postby Arborbridge » January 22nd, 2022, 12:37 pm

88V8 wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:It occurred to me that EVs (and cars in general) are becoming utterly dependent on software, and software updates and on central control of your car. So, what is there to prevent a manufacturer from switching off your systems unless you agree to pay a monthly charge?

Nothing.
After all this iniquitous business model is already rife in televisions, is it not? And indeed in phones, although not my Nokia 3110.
And with our throwaway mentality, I see no one on the streets protesting about it.

The car will become just another throwaway.

V8 (cars 1991, 1974, 1963, no software hehheh)


That's exactly what worries me. I've brought this up, and no one seems to realise it is a problem: indeed some (I suspect the welathy among us) think it is quite an acceptable idea. TVs and phones are minor items compared with the capital cost of a car. Indeed, with regard to TV, the Tories are hell bent on destroying the BBC model which is the only thing standing in the way of a slam dunk of subscription models in that direction - which is hardly good for the less wealthy, or those near the bread line.

BTW, thinking about this further, the other danger of software driven cars is the concentration of power in the hands of a few corporate players. Gone will be the small country garage repair shop where ordinary people can take older cars to be serviced. This vision of the motoring future is bleak indeed, a dystopian one with roving gangs hunting for older "proper" cars which can be patched together or used for spares.

Arb.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475364

Postby Breelander » January 22nd, 2022, 4:50 pm

Urbandreamer wrote:Some people are even known to drive cars old enough that the don't have, or are legally required to have, seat belts. Though they may pay a charge for driving them through a town that has implemented a ULEZ, like London...

Actually, no....

All vehicles that have a historic vehicle tax class will be exempt from the ULEZ.
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra- ... exemptions

tsr2
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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475480

Postby tsr2 » January 23rd, 2022, 7:08 am

Arborbridge wrote:Of course, "frills" is up to you, but I'm talking the possibility of essential software being held to ransom at some time in the future.


Toyota in the USA has tried to charge for key fob remote start. To be fair, the charge was for something that isn't actually essential, but charging for full use of your key fob seems to be a step in that direction. I believe it has been dropped after they got a lot of bad press.
They will be back.

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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475501

Postby quelquod » January 23rd, 2022, 10:02 am

Arborbridge wrote:
quelquod wrote:Paying for software upgrades to cars is nothing new. Many (most?) cars have required paid-for upgrades for many years should you want your built-in navigation system map to remain (almost) current. Higher-end manufacturers like BMW and Mercedes have for years had a whole raft of software frills which require annual relicensing. Should BMW issue a software update to my present car I will normally only get it installed out of the warranty period if I pay for it. None of these though prevent using the car for its basic function which is I think the OP’s concern.


Really?

I've had three BMWs two SAABS two Mercs and never been asked to pay for any upgrades.

Arb.


It all depends what you’ve bought. For BMW at least most ‘Connected Drive’ features are options and renewable at a fee. None of these prevents driving the car. As you say you’ve had several BMW and Mercedes cars I can tell you without any doubt that for instance nav map upgrades are payable outside of the initial (bought) period (typically the warranty period though some date from the build date) as are half a dozen others and have been for as long as I’ve run BMWs.

Arborbridge
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Re: Cars becoming like phones

#475667

Postby Arborbridge » January 24th, 2022, 8:57 am

quelquod wrote:It all depends what you’ve bought. For BMW at least most ‘Connected Drive’ features are options and renewable at a fee. None of these prevents driving the car. As you say you’ve had several BMW and Mercedes cars I can tell you without any doubt that for instance nav map upgrades are payable outside of the initial (bought) period (typically the warranty period though some date from the build date) as are half a dozen others and have been for as long as I’ve run BMWs.


As long as it's mapping only, I don't mind since I have never used it. It's the "deeper" software rather than peripheral which would concern my. Anything which moves the car I've paid for towards a subscription model would be an ugly development. But I can see we might have the thin end of the wedge coming soon. First it will be non-essentials, but then it'll be semi-essentials they will try so we end up with a sort of "shrinkflation" model in which one pays a huge price for a car but just gets less for it.

If all updates to essential software are through communication with the manufaturer's hub, they call the shots and can easily withdraw it unless you pay for the data downloads. At present, they say it's free, and the salesmen say it will always be free, but I am sure the contract T and Cs would not rule out future charges.
There's a cost the software re-writing and maintenance, and I cannot see them doing this free to the customer for ever.

Arb.


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