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AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

Passion, instruction, buying, care, maintenance and more, any form of vehicle discussion is welcome here
PhaseThree
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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520068

Postby PhaseThree » August 5th, 2022, 12:19 pm

These proximity activated keyless entry systems have always looked to me to be a solution looking for a problem.
Unfortunately as has been shown they are a poorly thought through solution looking for a problem, as a simple bit of electronics can extend the definition of proximity to be whatever the thief wants it to be. (There was a report of a car being activated miles away from the home using the spare fob kept in a draw in the kitchen.)

The very latest systems require the fob to be moving/shaken before the proximity link can activate. So a fob lying on a shelf in the house can't be used to activate a car, but a fob in your pocket will active as you walk towards the car.

I'm not sure if these systems have made it into the latest vehicles yet but will definitely be in the next versions. (Still not sure it's a problem that needs solution though)

mc2fool
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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520069

Postby mc2fool » August 5th, 2022, 12:21 pm

pje16 wrote:
mc2fool wrote:
pje16 wrote:it doesn't open until the press the button
well mine doesn't
You need to have "comfort access" for a BMW to work like that

Well yours may not but that's clearly not the type the article is talking about, otherwise it doesn't make sense. Why would the fob send its open-the-door code simply by being pinged if it requires pressing the button to do so? Clearly the article is talking about ones that don't need the button press.

Indeed, the Telegraph article finishes with "“Are we that lazy that we cannot press a button on a key fob or turn a key if it protects us?”"

I am not a villain, but I assume when they transmit from the 1st device to the 2nd that 2nd device has a button you can press

But at that point the "steal" has already occurred. The whole point of the article is that if you just leave your fob lying on the sideboard at home, then someone can ping your fob and the fob will send back the open door code without you pressing anything.

Can someone actually familiar with the particular devices in question enlighten me on how this all works, please?

pje16
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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520071

Postby pje16 » August 5th, 2022, 12:24 pm

mc2fool wrote:Can someone actually familiar with the particular devices in question enlighten me on how this all works, please?

Try this
https://www.bmwoffreeport.com/blogs/827 ... stem-work/

and the fob can be relayed from your house to 2nd one nearer the car

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520076

Postby doolally » August 5th, 2022, 12:33 pm

PhaseThree wrote:...... (Still not sure it's a problem that needs solution though)

You're not sure???!!! I think it's blindingly obvious that this system was demanded by marketing whizz-kids who wanted something new to differentiate their product and to sell to the gullible masses. It's nothing to do with safety, security, need or benefit.
doolally

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520079

Postby PhaseThree » August 5th, 2022, 12:44 pm

doolally wrote:
PhaseThree wrote:...... (Still not sure it's a problem that needs solution though)

You're not sure???!!! I think it's blindingly obvious that this system was demanded by marketing whizz-kids who wanted something new to differentiate their product and to sell to the gullible masses. It's nothing to do with safety, security, need or benefit.
doolally


The only possible justification I can see is if it used in conjunction with one of the foot operated tailgate opening systems - and even then it's a bit tenuous - This allows you to approach the vehicle with armfuls of stuff and be able to put the stuff directly in the boot without having to fumble around for a key fob. Potentially useful in a wet supermarket car park perhaps ???

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520083

Postby Itsallaguess » August 5th, 2022, 12:59 pm

simoan wrote:
Anyone who has ever worked in data security (like me) knows the basic law that "convenience is the enemy of good security".


I completely agree, and anyone who thinks otherwise should never be allowed to get anywhere near the design-stage of new vehicle-access solutions like these particular localised fobs...

I mean, what's wrong with my vehicle security-system, where the clutch is so goosed that two weeks of driver-training is required before anyone can reliably move the thing...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520137

Postby AF62 » August 5th, 2022, 4:58 pm

pje16 wrote:I am somehwat surprised that you can leave everything unlocked, but then again I live in London


Ah London - not a different country but a different planet.

As for leaving a car unlocked - yes, and in fact I have just come back from the local Tesco superstore and for the 20 minutes or so I was inside my car was outside unlocked.

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520154

Postby Snorvey » August 5th, 2022, 5:39 pm

I'm fairly rural but always lock house/car doors because I figure that a couple of extra seconds spent is well worth it compared to the aggro endured should your stuff get nicked (however small that chance maybe)

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520164

Postby Itsallaguess » August 5th, 2022, 5:49 pm

Snorvey wrote:
I'm fairly rural but always lock house/car doors because I figure that a couple of extra seconds spent is well worth it compared to the aggro endured should your stuff get nicked (however small that chance maybe)


I've got the same habits, but for ever so slightly different primary reasons.

Whilst I'd still be concerned with any accompanying theft, my bigger regular concerns would be to know just where relevant keys are, and I've found that good locking habits tend to lead to good key-husbandry by default, and just losing keys would involve enough downstream aggro for me to really want to avoid doing so, even ignoring any potential for actual thefts that might go along with any of that.

Like you say - for how long the habit actually takes, I've also never seen much point in not doing it...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520166

Postby Snorvey » August 5th, 2022, 5:54 pm

I think it was Simsqu's old profile on the Motley Fool interview where his response to something that should be invented, but hasn't was...'Central Locking for houses'.

Genius.

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520180

Postby Lootman » August 5th, 2022, 6:24 pm

Snorvey wrote:I think it was Simsqu's old profile on the Motley Fool interview where his response to something that should be invented, but hasn't was...'Central Locking for houses'.

Genius.

That is now possible with Alexa. A friend of mine can lock and unlock the doors to his house by a voice command or remotely from his car.

He can also turn on or off the central heating and set the desired temperature, draw or open the blinds, switch on or off the lights, turn on the TV or other appliances, and probably a few other things I would never even have thought of.

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520203

Postby pje16 » August 5th, 2022, 7:33 pm

AF62 wrote:
pje16 wrote:I am somehwat surprised that you can leave everything unlocked, but then again I live in London


Ah London - not a different country but a different planet.

As for leaving a car unlocked - yes, and in fact I have just come back from the local Tesco superstore and for the 20 minutes or so I was inside my car was outside unlocked.

Which planet are you on - so to speak

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520205

Postby mc2fool » August 5th, 2022, 7:35 pm

Lootman wrote:
Snorvey wrote:I think it was Simsqu's old profile on the Motley Fool interview where his response to something that should be invented, but hasn't was...'Central Locking for houses'.

Genius.

That is now possible with Alexa. A friend of mine can lock and unlock the doors to his house by a voice command or remotely from his car.

And windows?

I assume that these newfangled cars do also wind up the windows when the car is wirelessly locked, but most people don't have motorised windows in their house......

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520206

Postby pje16 » August 5th, 2022, 7:36 pm

Lootman wrote:That is now possible with Alexa. A friend of mine can lock and unlock the doors to his house by a voice command or remotely from his car.

He can also turn on or off the central heating and set the desired temperature, draw or open the blinds, switch on or off the lights, turn on the TV or other appliances, and probably a few other things I would never even have thought of.

Yes it is but what happen if his internet goes down
My Alexa controls my lights and when my internet went down owing to a problem at the local exchange I was in the dark - if you get my meaning !

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520208

Postby Lootman » August 5th, 2022, 7:42 pm

pje16 wrote:
Lootman wrote:That is now possible with Alexa. A friend of mine can lock and unlock the doors to his house by a voice command or remotely from his car.

He can also turn on or off the central heating and set the desired temperature, draw or open the blinds, switch on or off the lights, turn on the TV or other appliances, and probably a few other things I would never even have thought of.

Yes it is but what happen if his internet goes down. My Alexa controls my lights and when my internet went down owing to a problem at the local exchange I was in the dark - if you get my meaning !

In our case we have two independent internet feeds from two different providers, entering the property from two different locations. Given that availability of either is way over 99% then the odds of us never having internet is negligible.

That said, a power cut would screw us over and we don't have a backup generator. Even then, smartphones should still work.

mc2fool wrote:
Lootman wrote:
Snorvey wrote:I think it was Simsqu's old profile on the Motley Fool interview where his response to something that should be invented, but hasn't was...'Central Locking for houses'.

Genius.

That is now possible with Alexa. A friend of mine can lock and unlock the doors to his house by a voice command or remotely from his car.

And windows?

I assume that these newfangled cars do also wind up the windows when the car is wirelessly locked, but most people don't have motorised windows in their house......

Yeah, I think he cannot control windows. But with climate control he doesn't need to open them. This is an expensive, modern house. I would hate it but he loves it.

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520210

Postby AF62 » August 5th, 2022, 7:53 pm

pje16 wrote:
AF62 wrote:
pje16 wrote:I am somehwat surprised that you can leave everything unlocked, but then again I live in London


Ah London - not a different country but a different planet.

As for leaving a car unlocked - yes, and in fact I have just come back from the local Tesco superstore and for the 20 minutes or so I was inside my car was outside unlocked.

Which planet are you on - so to speak


One where theft is not usual (and all the unpleasantness London considers normal).

Seriously, the town I live in has four police officers to cover a population of 40,000 and the 200 square miles of surrounding area. That isn’t four posts that are covered 24 hours a day, that is four people to cover 24/7.

Crime in London isn’t representative of crime across the rest of the UK.

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520211

Postby mc2fool » August 5th, 2022, 7:57 pm

AF62 wrote:[One where theft is not usual (and all the unpleasantness London considers normal).

Seriously, the town I live in has four police officers to cover a population of 40,000 and the 200 square miles of surrounding area. That isn’t four posts that are covered 24 hours a day, that is four people to cover 24/7.

Crime in London isn’t representative of crime across the rest of the UK.

True, there aren't many tractors or sheep stolen in London. :D

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520220

Postby Lootman » August 5th, 2022, 9:07 pm

mc2fool wrote:
AF62 wrote:[One where theft is not usual (and all the unpleasantness London considers normal).

Seriously, the town I live in has four police officers to cover a population of 40,000 and the 200 square miles of surrounding area. That isn’t four posts that are covered 24 hours a day, that is four people to cover 24/7.

Crime in London isn’t representative of crime across the rest of the UK.

True, there aren't many tractors or sheep stolen in London. :D

If I was a sheep where AF62 lives I suspect that being stolen would be the least of my concerns. ;)

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520225

Postby AF62 » August 5th, 2022, 9:28 pm

Lootman wrote:
mc2fool wrote:
AF62 wrote:[One where theft is not usual (and all the unpleasantness London considers normal).

Seriously, the town I live in has four police officers to cover a population of 40,000 and the 200 square miles of surrounding area. That isn’t four posts that are covered 24 hours a day, that is four people to cover 24/7.

Crime in London isn’t representative of crime across the rest of the UK.

True, there aren't many tractors or sheep stolen in London. :D

If I was a sheep where AF62 lives I suspect that being stolen would be the least of my concerns. ;)


Wrong country.

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Re: AA president hides keyless car fob inside microwave to foil hackers

#520228

Postby Mike4 » August 5th, 2022, 9:37 pm

AF62 wrote:
pje16 wrote:
AF62 wrote:
pje16 wrote:I am somehwat surprised that you can leave everything unlocked, but then again I live in London


Ah London - not a different country but a different planet.

As for leaving a car unlocked - yes, and in fact I have just come back from the local Tesco superstore and for the 20 minutes or so I was inside my car was outside unlocked.

Which planet are you on - so to speak


One where theft is not usual (and all the unpleasantness London considers normal).

Seriously, the town I live in has four police officers to cover a population of 40,000 and the 200 square miles of surrounding area. That isn’t four posts that are covered 24 hours a day, that is four people to cover 24/7.

Crime in London isn’t representative of crime across the rest of the UK.


Yes a friend of mine is a retired copper. He says that some saturday nights there would only be three of them on duty covering the whole of Berkshire. Desperately understaffed, and this was ten years ago!


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