The Lemon Fool

AF62 wrote:It isn't that a plug in hybrid (or a pure EV) has a fuel advantage - they are not that more efficient in using electricity than petrol. They have a cost advantage because electricity is far cheaper than petrol or diesel because it isn't subject to the same taxes.

I was under the impression that EV's are more efficient than petrol. A quick google got me to the article linked below. which says...

"Energy efficient. EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12%–30% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels."

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml

Comparing Energy efficiencies is only meaningful if you can point to different routes source to wheels. Oil well to wheel you can refine petrol or burn crude oil in a power station, but there is no clear equivalent for wind, nuclear or gas, unless you go via hydrogen, where the nunbers are dreadful.

Efficiency is good within a mode, so an aerodyamic BEV with better software and a lighter foot can make a big difference.

nmdhqbc wrote:

AF62 wrote:It isn't that a plug in hybrid (or a pure EV) has a fuel advantage - they are not that more efficient in using electricity than petrol. They have a cost advantage because electricity is far cheaper than petrol or diesel because it isn't subject to the same taxes.

I was under the impression that EV's are more efficient than petrol. A quick google got me to the article linked below. which says...

"Energy efficient. EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12%–30% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels."

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml

Transmission of electricity from power station to EV charging station can be shockingly inefficient especially if the cables run underground. The cables get hot apparently and some even require refrigeration plant to keep them cool. so I have heard. Dunno how true this is, but in calculating that 77% figure, has long distance transmission efficiency been taken into account?

Mike4 wrote:

nmdhqbc wrote:

AF62 wrote:It isn't that a plug in hybrid (or a pure EV) has a fuel advantage - they are not that more efficient in using electricity than petrol. They have a cost advantage because electricity is far cheaper than petrol or diesel because it isn't subject to the same taxes.

I was under the impression that EV's are more efficient than petrol. A quick google got me to the article linked below. which says...

"Energy efficient. EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12%–30% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels."

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml

Transmission of electricity from power station to EV charging station can be shockingly inefficient especially if the cables run underground. The cables get hot apparently and some even require refrigeration plant to keep them cool. so I have heard. Dunno how true this is, but in calculating that 77% figure, has long distance transmission efficiency been taken into account?

i imagine there are equivalent inefficiencies getting oil refined and into a car. there must be studies on this. be interesting to see the results.

nmdhqbc wrote:

Mike4 wrote:

nmdhqbc wrote:
I was under the impression that EV's are more efficient than petrol. A quick google got me to the article linked below. which says...

"Energy efficient. EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12%–30% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels."

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml

Transmission of electricity from power station to EV charging station can be shockingly inefficient especially if the cables run underground. The cables get hot apparently and some even require refrigeration plant to keep them cool. so I have heard. Dunno how true this is, but in calculating that 77% figure, has long distance transmission efficiency been taken into account?

i imagine there are equivalent inefficiencies getting oil refined and into a car. there must be studies on this. be interesting to see the results.

There are, and in the dim distant past I've read some of them. They just lead to endless bickering about what should and should not be taken into account. If you are gonna include oil refining inefficiencies, presumably you'd also be happy to lump in the equivalent inefficiencies in the burning of the carbon fuels and generating the leccy at at the power station?

Mike4 wrote:There are, and in the dim distant past I've read some of them. They just lead to endless bickering about what should and should not be taken into account. If you are gonna include oil refining inefficiencies, presumably you'd also be happy to lump in the equivalent inefficiencies in the burning of the carbon fuels and generating the leccy at at the power station?

I feel like you think i have a horse in this race. I'm just interested in finding out. If the truth is that petrol is more efficient then that's great. It's just you mentioned grid inefficiencies for EV's without mentioning the equivalent on the other side of the equation. Seems sensible to look at both.

interesting video. goes into some detail estimating the time needed for EV to become greener. a couple of years old and using US info about their grid etc. i would hope that even their grid had gotton a bit greener since then...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM

nmdhqbc wrote:

Mike4 wrote:There are, and in the dim distant past I've read some of them. They just lead to endless bickering about what should and should not be taken into account. If you are gonna include oil refining inefficiencies, presumably you'd also be happy to lump in the equivalent inefficiencies in the burning of the carbon fuels and generating the leccy at at the power station?

I feel like you think i have a horse in this race. I'm just interested in finding out. If the truth is that petrol is more efficient then that's great. It's just you mentioned grid inefficiencies for EV's without mentioning the equivalent on the other side of the equation. Seems sensible to look at both.

Apologies, I didn't mean it that way. I too just seek clarity but my point was the deeper one digs, the more confusing the issue of total efficiency becomes.

I am constantly disappointed by the relentless focus on electric cars. I use a van exclusively and would love to have an electric or hybrid one to play with, but they simply don't seem to have had the development attention that cars have so few or no second hand ones generally around. And there is no way I'm shelling out £40k on a new one, especially as I don't have parking on my land here. My parking in on land the other side of the lane so getting mains power across the road to charge it would be quite a project! Most I've paid for a vehicle in my life has been £11k. I simply can't bring myself to take the 50%-60% hit in three years on a new one.

Mike4 wrote:Apologies, I didn't mean it that way. I too just seek clarity but my point was the deeper one digs, the more confusing the issue of total efficiency becomes.

no need to apologise. i just wanted to let you know i really am not looking to defend EV's. i just see comments or info and feel like i heard conflicting info so i looked into it and posted links here. ignoring the source of the electricity/petrol it seems EVs are more efficient. i am too interested to see the effect of grid inefficiencies but also the petrol getting into the car. that's the efficiency side of things. you brought up the energy mix. depends on the location but the graph i linked earlier in the thread shows the trajectory of the energy mix in the uk. looking better each year. i can't envisage petrol cars lowering their emissions that much more. having looked at it some more i guess you could say i have a horse in the race now. it's looking like EV's are more efficient and cleaner. but that's because the evidence took me there not my preconceived ideas. i would change my mind if the evidence was proved wrong.

Mike4 wrote:I am constantly disappointed by the relentless focus on electric cars. I use a van exclusively and would love to have an electric or hybrid one to play with, but they simply don't seem to have had the development attention that cars have so few or no second hand ones generally around. And there is no way I'm shelling out £40k on a new one, especially as I don't have parking on my land here. My parking in on land the other side of the lane so getting mains power across the road to charge it would be quite a project! Most I've paid for a vehicle in my life has been £11k. I simply can't bring myself to take the 50%-60% hit in three years on a new one.

I too can not afford an EV. it does not make me dislike them or get annoyed hearing about them though. i enjoy monitoring the situation. batteries getting cheaper, charging network getting better (no charging at my home either). gets me closer and closer to being able to get one. i see more electric vans are on the way. I dont think anyone is telling us that everyone has to buy one now. it's about transitioning over time. first the rich tesla buyers who don't mind paying more for the toy. eventually the average new car buyer. eventually the savvy second hand buyer. it will happen gradually and each person can get on board when they feel the moment is right. eventually the second hand market will be awash with decently priced EV and no ICE option. and who knows maybe hydrogen will be viable for the on street parkers.

Apart from problems like the price, range and chargers.....my concern is that EV are in their infancy. Development & improvements continue at a pace and the EV I buy today may be seriously out of date before it's a year old. Thats going to hit resale value and hurt considerably.

nmdhqbc wrote:If the truth is that petrol is more efficient then that's great. It's just you mentioned grid inefficiencies for EV's without mentioning the equivalent on the other side of the equation. Seems sensible to look at both.

I seriously doubt whether fossil fuel cars could ever be anywhere near as efficient, mile for mile, as EVs. But there are certain rev ranges which deliver the greatest efficiency if only you can stay within them. Which is why diesel-electric engines became so dominant on the railways. Turbines, too, can reach 60% efficiency, or more.

I've seen some reasonably good discussions which try to compare the real "ground source to wheel" efficiency of different fuels, and this one seems to arrive at broadly the same conclusions as you. I am in no position to judge or assess the maths, but FWIW it arrives at a 33% ratio for petrol cars. https://matter2energy.wordpress.com/201 ... fficiency/

It also mentions, in passing, that the drivetrain on a (US) car soaks up perhaps 6% of the engine's power. Whereas a fully electric car has almost no drive train at all. But it doesn't address the other burning question of the day, which is the lifetime (factory-to-scrapyard) environmental cost in terms of carbon dioxide and so forth, as distinct from melting it down and starting again. . For some drivers there's a distinctly arguable case for running a small petrol car into the ground.

And another thing. EV batteries gobble up scarce supplies of cobalt and cadmium, not to mention rare earths, which are incredibly cost-intensive to get from the ores. (They're not that rare, actually but only China can make the maths work.) And where are we going to get enough of these metals to go round when we've outlawed the infernal consumption engine? Answers on a postcard, please.

BJ

jackdaww wrote:

Howard wrote:
We drove a plug in hybrid for two years as a second car. A BMW 330e. It was mainly used for short journeys but had a range of over 400 miles.

Over 11,292 miles the car used 726.05 litres of petrol. So it achieved 71 mpg.

The car was charged most evenings and I estimate that over two years it consumed around £240 of electricity in addition to the petrol costs.

It was a very quiet and smooth car (and fast!), I was sad to see it go, but it was on a two year lease.

Howard

============================

if accurate 71mpg is indeed excellent even allowing for the electricity costs .

perhaps hybrids DO have a fuel advantage - i still dont know why.

Did you see GoSeigen's excellent explanation earlier in the thread?
viewtopic.php?p=389158#p389158

.

from feb 2021 which? car guide ---

average fuel economy mpg for full hybrid - non plugin cars --

toyota yaris 60

honda jazz 55

toyota prius 53

toyota corolla 53

toyota CHR 52

kia niro 49

hyundi kona 47

lastly , and more in my line --

toyota rav4 50

honda CRV 40.

so 50mpg readily available for most , to get over 60 needs a plugin , where some of the power is sourced from the grid.

the straight petrol versions of the honda crv and toyota rav4 are nearly 10 mpg less - a rough comparison , but a strong indication the hybrids have a substantial advantage.

richlist wrote:Apart from problems like the price, range and chargers.....my concern is that EV are in their infancy. Development & improvements continue at a pace and the EV I buy today may be seriously out of date before it's a year old. Thats going to hit resale value and hurt considerably.

I guess that this is the advantage of Contract Hire. The leasing company take the risk of higher depreciation and they know more about the risks than the average motorist.

At the moment, I can see that VWFS must be delighted to get our three year old car back because second hand prices are much higher than expected owing to the higher demand caused by lockdown. And as an arm of the VW group they probably "bought" the car from their parent at not much more than 50% of the retail price.

Whilst BEVs were very expensive to lease three years ago, the smaller family car models are now becoming competitive with ICE cars. So the leasing companies believe they won't depreciate too fast. For anyone interested the link below shows the costs of personally leasing BEVs (Company cars are much cheaper as Vat isn't applied!). If you shop around there are even more competitive deals available.

https://www.drive-electric.co.uk/car-type/electric/

regards

Howard

PS Mike: Nissan e Vans start at around £220 a month but don't ask about the cost of stretching a charging cable across the road .

Mike4, the Fully Charged Youtube channel had a 5 part series on electric vans over xmas. I found it interesting as it was more user experience than van review, and I don't want a van. The channel is wide ranging about decarbonising, and only a little preachy.

jackdaww wrote:.

from feb 2021 which? car guide ---

average fuel economy mpg for full hybrid - non plugin cars --

Are those real world figures?

Honestjohn suggests the 1.2 petrol Corolla does 40mpg real world whilst the 1.8 hybrid about 60mpg and the 2.0 hybrid 50mpg. The CHR hybrid seeems to be far better than any of the petrol equivalents.

The 2013-19 2.5 Rav4 hybrid was less impressive over the fuel counterparts, at under 45mpg very similar to the 2.0D so it seems the newer generation are better.

Both Honda CRV hybrids return less real world than the 1.6D though.

Paul

Meanwhile, Porsche are working on a 'low-carbon' form of petrol.

What will happen if that is accepted as climate-friendly as happened with leaded-unleaded petrol?

Price will obviously pay a vital part and no idea at present what that might be.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/12/09/po ... -at-scale/
Porsche has been working with companies like Siemens and ENAP to develop synthetic, carbon-neutral fuels for its internal combustion engines for a while now.
Those plans have recently taken a big step forward, however, as Porsche and Siemens have announced plans to build a pilot plant in Chile that will be the world’s first fully integrated plant capable of producing synthetic fuel at an industrial scale — and the new factory should be up and running as early as next year.

Howard wrote:PS Mike: Nissan e Vans start at around £220 a month but don't ask about the cost of stretching a charging cable across the road .

JohnB wrote:Mike4, the Fully Charged Youtube channel had a 5 part series on electric vans over xmas. I found it interesting as it was more user experience than van review, and I don't want a van. The channel is wide ranging about decarbonising, and only a little preachy.

Thanks you two, I'll have a look.

Over in The Combustion Chamber", there is one guy who says his company bought a handful of electric vans for the fleet. Fully laden and in cold wet weather he says the range on a full charge is down to about 65 miles, so no-one will use them. He is a bit of a know-all/whiner though so I don't attach that much credence to what he says with no independent coinciding opinions.

Mike4 wrote:Over in The Combustion Chamber", there is one guy who says his company bought a handful of electric vans for the fleet. Fully laden and in cold wet weather he says the range on a full charge is down to about 65 miles, so no-one will use them. He is a bit of a know-all/whiner though so I don't attach that much credence to what he says with no independent coinciding opinions.

There is probably a grain of truth, though I really would use a pinch of salt.
Here is what I know to be true.

Most batteries don't work well in cold weather. This will reduce the range.
People don't tend to like cold weather, hence need heating.
Running heaters from the batteries will reduce the range.
Carrying heavy loads needs more energy, With a given maximum battery capacity that will reduce the range.

So far, so obvious, except to the guy that you quote.
Indeed here is a link for confirmation of the cold weather stuff.
https://greenfleet.net/features/2811201 ... c-vehicles

I really doubt that any company though would pay someone to not work, just because they don't like electric vans. "no-one will use them". Really?

Ps, I'm a fan of EV's though don't yet have one. When I need a van I hire one. When I buy/lease a electric car I'll hire a Hybrid or Petrol car when I want to cover large distances, or use a train or plane.

DrFfybes wrote:

jackdaww wrote:.

from feb 2021 which? car guide ---

average fuel economy mpg for full hybrid - non plugin cars --

Are those real world figures?

Honestjohn suggests the 1.2 petrol Corolla does 40mpg real world whilst the 1.8 hybrid about 60mpg and the 2.0 hybrid 50mpg. The CHR hybrid seeems to be far better than any of the petrol equivalents.

The 2013-19 2.5 Rav4 hybrid was less impressive over the fuel counterparts, at under 45mpg very similar to the 2.0D so it seems the newer generation are better.

Both Honda CRV hybrids return less real world than the 1.6D though.

Paul

====================================

i dont know , which? say they are from tests ( by whom ?) - and NOT from preposterous manufacturer claims.

the honda CRV hybrid (40mpg) is indeed disappointingly poor - how can the RAV4 hybrid (50mpg) be so much better .

i wonder where honest john gets his real world figures from ..