The Lemon Fool

marronier wrote:I'm thinking that electric cars sales won't take off until EVs are embraced by the commercial operators who will require greater range than presently available and a maximum speed of say 85 mph.

EV car manufacturers seem to be concentrating on high speeds and rapid acceleration at the expense of range , catering for a small market.

Err, I take it that you are not as old as some of us here.
I remember many commercial operators running electric vehicles. The market place has made some of them fail, while others have moved to mostly electric.

Ok, guess which commercial operators I'm talking about.

Milk vans were mostly electric, until most people stopped getting milk on the door step. Was that anything to do with EV's?
Right, how about trains, or the underground in London? Are they still running steam? Or are the intercity links running on oil?
We have reintroduced electric trams where I live. Are they not commercial?
Trains use to take goods to depots where they were then loaded onto vehicles that moved the goods locally. That could be done with battery vehicles, just like it was previously done with horses or steam lorries.

Sure, they are not "car's", but to be blunt, "car's" are not a "commercial" vehicle in the sense of desired by companies. Companies may buy "car's" to do a job, but they do so for what that job entails and the cost of the means of doing the job. I was talking to a Bosch service engineer today, who had travelled over a hundred miles (more like 2) to get to me and had to make the journey in reverse. He came in a car. Does anyone claim that he couldn't have done the journey in a petrol van rather than a car? If by some chance you are talking air port "car" rental, then if range is an issue offer "mini bus's".

Look the 2030 ban is on petrol or diesel CAR'S. Car's are personal transport, not commercial transport.

Ps, I have yet to buy or rent a electric car. However I intend to get rid of my petrol car in the next 5 years and start renting an EV.

Urbandreamer wrote:Look the 2030 ban is on petrol or diesel CAR'S. Car's are personal transport, not commercial transport.

Y'know I hadn't really clocked that until now. Just cars eh? Not small vans?

I drive a 5-seat diesel engined van. It is fast and luxurious, every bit as nice to drive as a good quality family car. If these will continue to be built after the ban on ICE cars, I can imagine sales of vans like mine absolutely booming for personal use.

Includes vans, read detail of https://www.gov.uk/government/news/gove ... rs-by-2030

Right now, electric vehicles only make rational sense if you drive at least 8k miles a year and rarely need to drive more than 150 miles in a day.

That first point won’t change until either taxes on petrol and diesel go up, or the purchase price differential (inclusive of any taxes or incentives) reduces. For the second we need either an improvement in the cost per unit of energy stored by batteries or a huge (10x or more) increase in the availability of en route and destination charging.

Finally, as it is almost never rational to buy a new car as opposed to a 2-5 year old one, we will need to wait for a little longer before sufficient volumes of EVs are on the second hand market.

Spet0789 wrote:Finally, as it is almost never rational to buy a new car as opposed to a 2-5 year old one, we will need to wait for a little longer before sufficient volumes of EVs are on the second hand market.

I think this is a really interesting topic. With low volumes of electric cars, the landscape for the used EV car buyer is pretty murky in terms of future value and running costs. Although the initial readings seem to indicate EV's being quite reliable, I'm a great believer in not being an early adopter of new technology and will definitely not want to be running an EV with a manufacturers warranty in place.

Spet0789 wrote:Right now, electric vehicles only make rational sense if you drive at least 8k miles a year and rarely need to drive more than 150 miles in a day.

That "if you drive at least 8k miles a year and rarely need to drive more than 150 miles in a day" sounds like a good description of most of the working population that owns cars.

regards, dspp

dspp wrote:

Spet0789 wrote:Right now, electric vehicles only make rational sense if you drive at least 8k miles a year and rarely need to drive more than 150 miles in a day.

That "if you drive at least 8k miles a year and rarely need to drive more than 150 miles in a day" sounds like a good description of most of the working population that owns cars.

regards, dspp

But not vans...

Mike4 wrote:

dspp wrote:

Spet0789 wrote:Right now, electric vehicles only make rational sense if you drive at least 8k miles a year and rarely need to drive more than 150 miles in a day.

That "if you drive at least 8k miles a year and rarely need to drive more than 150 miles in a day" sounds like a good description of most of the working population that owns cars.

regards, dspp

But not vans...

Patience grasshopper .....

And more importantly, EVs must now make a noise.

'All new electric and hybrid vehicles are now legally required to have an external sound generator so they can be more easily heard by pedestrians and cyclists.'

Hooray. More than once I have nearly been run over by the virtue-signalling shopping trolley owned by the nice couple up the lane.

Moreover, they can make a proper noise '...addressing concerns that cars without engines will be boring or unengaging for enthusiasts, Harman allows brands to create custom-designed sounds, for “a sound signature that reflects the brand DNA of their cars”.
The wailing V12 or burbling V8 may yet live on, albeit virtually…'
https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-ne ... ake-noise/

V8

88V8 wrote:And more importantly, EVs must now make a noise.

'All new electric and hybrid vehicles are now legally required to have an external sound generator so they can be more easily heard by pedestrians and cyclists.'

Hooray. More than once I have nearly been run over by the virtue-signalling shopping trolley owned by the nice couple up the lane.

Moreover, they can make a proper noise '...addressing concerns that cars without engines will be boring or unengaging for enthusiasts, Harman allows brands to create custom-designed sounds, for “a sound signature that reflects the brand DNA of their cars”.
The wailing V12 or burbling V8 may yet live on, albeit virtually…'
https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-ne ... ake-noise/

V8

I'd want mine to make a noise like an ice cream van...

Snorvey wrote:I'd want mine to make a noise like an ice cream van...

A herd of stampeding wildebeest or a Star Wars Empire fighter craft for me.

Yup - hooves like in Monty Python's Holy Grail, increasing with speed, or a Steam Train.

Paul

dspp wrote:

Mike4 wrote:

dspp wrote:
That "if you drive at least 8k miles a year and rarely need to drive more than 150 miles in a day" sounds like a good description of most of the working population that owns cars.

regards, dspp

But not vans...

Patience grasshopper .....

Arrival, the global technology company creating electric vehicles using its game-changing technologies, has unveiled specs, images and video of the next phase in the development of its electric Van which will be starting public road trials with key customers this summer.

Arrival believes it has set a new standard for commercial vehicles by introducing a fully electric van that excels across both payload (1975kg) and cargo volume (2.4m3 per metre in length) at a price comparable with fossil fuel vehicles, and with a substantially lower Total Cost of Ownership (TCO).

Arrival’s Van has been developed alongside drivers and operators to maximise functionality for real world use, with the deployment of advanced in-house technologies throughout the vehicle to provide customers with an elevated connected experience and operators with the data and fleet management tools they need to optimise the running of a fleet.

Arrival’s in-house components are enabled by Arrival’s proprietary software which allows real-time health monitoring and predictive maintenance to reduce downtime. The components are also upgradeable over time in both hardware and software, ensuring the vehicle stays up to date with the latest technology and extending its use.

The flexibility provided by the modular battery ranging from 44kWh to 133kWh, means that operators can choose the battery configuration that is best suited for their range requirements,

https://www.memuk.org/transport/automot ... mmer-60178

regards, dspp

Arrival van c/o Fully Charged

https://youtu.be/I781itRPJH8

Like the presenter, I’d love that as a camper van.

GrahamPlatt wrote:Like the presenter, I’d love that as a camper van.

Presenter, of course, is Robert Llewellyn, formerly Kryten. I imagine the van has plenty of space?

BJ

It has the aerodynamics of a brick ......with slightly radiused corners. Yuk.

GrahamPlatt wrote:Arrival van c/o Fully Charged

https://youtu.be/I781itRPJH8

Like the presenter, I’d love that as a camper van.

Great as a delivery van, utterly hopeless as a tradesman's work van. Difficult to park, won't fit on a customer's drive or in a standard underground car park space, bloody nuisance trying to park it in a standard space at Screwfix or Wickes, or even at Tesco. For many tradesmen the van is their only personal transport so has to double as a car. Not sure either how it would cope with the 120 mile motorway round trip I made at short notice yesterday evening down to Poole to emergency-fix a boiler, unless it happened to be fully charged.

But yes excellent for DHL parcel delivering, although I think they'd probably have those racks/shelves straight out though to increase capacity! The whole massive tradesman's van market seems to be being ignored though. Or more accurately, misunderstood. The few offerings I've noticed so far don't really hit the spot for us at all, particularly in terms of styling. Styling is why the Transit is so popular. Tradesmen buy it because they think it 'looks the part', stylish, and is something they feel proud to drive rather than embarrassed as they would be turning up on site in this.

richlist wrote:It has the aerodynamics of a brick ......with slightly radiused corners. Yuk.

Looks like it would burst if you prick it with a pin.

Mike4 wrote:

GrahamPlatt wrote:Arrival van c/o Fully Charged

https://youtu.be/I781itRPJH8

Like the presenter, I’d love that as a camper van.

Great as a delivery van, utterly hopeless as a tradesman's work van. Difficult to park, won't fit on a customer's drive or in a standard underground car park space, bloody nuisance trying to park it in a standard space at Screwfix or Wickes, or even at Tesco. For many tradesmen the van is their only personal transport so has to double as a car. Not sure either how it would cope with the 120 mile motorway round trip I made at short notice yesterday evening down to Poole to emergency-fix a boiler, unless it happened to be fully charged.

But yes excellent for DHL parcel delivering, although I think they'd probably have those racks/shelves straight out though to increase capacity! The whole massive tradesman's van market seems to be being ignored though. Or more accurately, misunderstood. The few offerings I've noticed so far don't really hit the spot for us at all, particularly in terms of styling. Styling is why the Transit is so popular. Tradesmen buy it because they think it 'looks the part', stylish, and is something they feel proud to drive rather than embarrassed as they would be turning up on site in this.

Mike,
That offering is primarily designed as a delivery van, that's why it is optimised for that purpose. Different carriers want or don't want racks, again that is why it is designed to be either with or without. They appear to have huge advance orderbooks (not confirmed AFAIK) from the delivery companies which is why they are leading on that design point. They don't need high speeds for most of that market hence being relatively boxy. I expect other variants on the same chassis will follow for other segments. Personally I don't know if that particular company will survive and/or thrive but it is certainly making a decent stab at it.
regards,
dspp

dspp wrote:

Mike4 wrote:

GrahamPlatt wrote:Arrival van c/o Fully Charged

https://youtu.be/I781itRPJH8

Like the presenter, I’d love that as a camper van.

Great as a delivery van, utterly hopeless as a tradesman's work van. Difficult to park, won't fit on a customer's drive or in a standard underground car park space, bloody nuisance trying to park it in a standard space at Screwfix or Wickes, or even at Tesco. For many tradesmen the van is their only personal transport so has to double as a car. Not sure either how it would cope with the 120 mile motorway round trip I made at short notice yesterday evening down to Poole to emergency-fix a boiler, unless it happened to be fully charged.

But yes excellent for DHL parcel delivering, although I think they'd probably have those racks/shelves straight out though to increase capacity! The whole massive tradesman's van market seems to be being ignored though. Or more accurately, misunderstood. The few offerings I've noticed so far don't really hit the spot for us at all, particularly in terms of styling. Styling is why the Transit is so popular. Tradesmen buy it because they think it 'looks the part', stylish, and is something they feel proud to drive rather than embarrassed as they would be turning up on site in this.

Mike,
That offering is primarily designed as a delivery van, that's why it is optimised for that purpose. Different carriers want or don't want racks, again that is why it is designed to be either with or without. They appear to have huge advance orderbooks (not confirmed AFAIK) from the delivery companies which is why they are leading on that design point. They don't need high speeds for most of that market hence being relatively boxy. I expect other variants on the same chassis will follow for other segments. Personally I don't know if that particular company will survive and/or thrive but it is certainly making a decent stab at it.
regards,
dspp

But but.... it was offered in response to my plaintiff wailings that the market for electric tradesman's vans is being ignored!

Mike4 wrote:

dspp wrote:

Mike4 wrote:
Great as a delivery van, utterly hopeless as a tradesman's work van. Difficult to park, won't fit on a customer's drive or in a standard underground car park space, bloody nuisance trying to park it in a standard space at Screwfix or Wickes, or even at Tesco. For many tradesmen the van is their only personal transport so has to double as a car. Not sure either how it would cope with the 120 mile motorway round trip I made at short notice yesterday evening down to Poole to emergency-fix a boiler, unless it happened to be fully charged.

But yes excellent for DHL parcel delivering, although I think they'd probably have those racks/shelves straight out though to increase capacity! The whole massive tradesman's van market seems to be being ignored though. Or more accurately, misunderstood. The few offerings I've noticed so far don't really hit the spot for us at all, particularly in terms of styling. Styling is why the Transit is so popular. Tradesmen buy it because they think it 'looks the part', stylish, and is something they feel proud to drive rather than embarrassed as they would be turning up on site in this.

Mike,
That offering is primarily designed as a delivery van, that's why it is optimised for that purpose. Different carriers want or don't want racks, again that is why it is designed to be either with or without. They appear to have huge advance orderbooks (not confirmed AFAIK) from the delivery companies which is why they are leading on that design point. They don't need high speeds for most of that market hence being relatively boxy. I expect other variants on the same chassis will follow for other segments. Personally I don't know if that particular company will survive and/or thrive but it is certainly making a decent stab at it.
regards,
dspp

But but.... it was offered in response to my plaintiff wailings that the market for electric tradesman's vans is being ignored!

Sorry Mike, I just thought it was any old van you were after

(They are doing an electric Transit but I don't think you will find it to your liking at present)

regards, dspp