Giles Coran on electric cars

[Dod101]

Yes but charging diesels only £20 was always stupid. It annoys me that mu neighbour runs an old diesel and pays only £20 whereas my new petrol Q5 costs me around £520. However I know which I prefer.

Dod

The £520 is clearly a tax on the more well off I suppose. Can't imagine the average Brit choosing to pay that.

I did not chose to pay that in that I did not set out to do so. It is a penalty for those who buy more expensive (cars whose original list price is over £40,000, monabri quoted on this thread earlier).

So the £520 is attached to a more expensive car, whether the owner is a millionaire or a pauper.

Dod

[OhNoNotimAgain]

Yes but charging diesels only £20 was always stupid. It annoys me that mu neighbour runs an old diesel and pays only £20 whereas my new petrol Q5 costs me around £520. However I know which I prefer.

Dod

The £520 is clearly a tax on the more well off I suppose. Can't imagine the average Brit choosing to pay that.

I did not chose to pay that in that I did not set out to do so. It is a penalty for those who buy more expensive (cars whose original list price is over £40,000, monabri quoted on this thread earlier).

So the £520 is attached to a more expensive car, whether the owner is a millionaire or a pauper.

Dod

Coren is right.
I spent 90 minutes at Gretna Green waiting to charge my Kona. The Tesla queue was even worse and two joined the Ionity queue.
One guy with a Taycan said he had to wait 3 hours the previous week to get his charge.
Don't get me wrong the EV is the fastest thing I have ever driven and around town they are fantastic. But for long trips forget it, especially in winter.

I was amazed at how much very heavy rain reduces the range on an EV on a motorway. It seems to be just the sheer hydraulic work of clearing a lot of water from under 4 tyres at 70 mph, it must add up to a lot of gallons/kg every minute. Going up the M74 I seriously misjudged my consumption. 2.9 m/KwH instead of 3.5 is a big percentage hit.

[BobbyD]

He obviously got a dud! But no one else I know with EVs (Tesla, Nissan and VW) have had such problems.

Did any of them regularly have a word count to hit, and an audience of dyed in the wool luddites?

[Midsmartin]

Most of these things are improving over time. Battery capacity is improving, can charge at faster rates, and have longer lifespans.

We havea Nissan leaf, and it's great. But obviously we prefer our petrol car if going a long distance.

I'm not sure anyone has worked out how we will all be electric though. If you live in a flat or a terraced house with no driveway, what will you do? Even if public chargepoints are provided,eg on lampposts or similar, they will surely be much more expensive than home charging. I think there is a hope that employers will provide chargers. But that won't work for everyone. And can you imagine the trip hazards in a narrow street of terraced housing where every car is plugged into a bollard like charger.

Maybe hydrogen cars can eventually fill the gaps, if the chicken and egg issue of providing fueling for those can be addressed. Hydrogen may be less energy efficient, but has potential practical advantages. (www.riversimple.com )

[Arborbridge]

He obviously got a dud! But no one else I know with EVs (Tesla, Nissan and VW) have had such problems.

Did any of them regularly have a word count to hit, and an audience of dyed in the wool luddites?

I think that's akin to shooting the messenger. Coren is not a dyed in the wool luddite: he chose an EV from enthusiasm for green issues, and his dream came up against reality, as he experienced it.
His final judgement has the ring of truth: that EVs are fine for short journeys but not yet fully acceptable for long journeys due to inadequacies in the infrastructure. This is not a luddite opinion but a statement of the obvious. It will get worse before it gets better, too, because new installations at present are not keeping up with the number of new vehicles. The basics are against a fast improvement: the length of charging time compared with filling time: the scarcity of multiple charging points at one "station" compared with the number of pumps at a fossil fuel station.

There are some EV apostles who are in denial: the rest of us acknowledge the problems while hoping they will improve by the time we have an EV ourselves. Usually, business will find a way to cure the problems that arise. It will in this case too, but it may take some time, that's all.

Arb.

[scrumpyjack]

BP completely rebuilt the petrol station near us at Buntingford and finished it about 18 months ago, including about 15 x 150kw charging points.
They still haven't been able to open the EV chargers apparently because the grid can't support them there!

It will take a long time to get adequate fast charging points installed!!

[Urbandreamer]

He obviously got a dud! But no one else I know with EVs (Tesla, Nissan and VW) have had such problems.

Did any of them regularly have a word count to hit, and an audience of dyed in the wool luddites?

...

His final judgement has the ring of truth: that EVs are fine for short journeys but not yet fully acceptable for long journeys due to inadequacies in the infrastructure. This is not a luddite opinion but a statement of the obvious.

Arguably the issue is either that he had a word count to fill, or that the "statement of the obvious" should not have been a final judgement, but a judgement made before the purchase, or at least before the journey.

Anyone who does any research should know that EV range depends upon conditions. Range is lower in wintery conditions. Range also falls over time as the battery ages.
Everyone, that is, except those who don't do the research, like Mr Coren. Who has publicly stated that he expects the quoted range.
I wonder if he expects the quoted MPG for a petrol car. Driving conditions and style of driving do seem to affect that as well.

PLEASE don't be like Mr Coren.

Evaluate what is known before making a choice. If you intend travelling long distances, PLAN for that. Either buy a vehicle with that intent, rent, use a train or plane, or possibly plan your stops in advance and alternatives stops. I'd argue the same considerations should hold, even if you have rejected electric cars, possibly because your house has no parking.

[DrFfybes]

He obviously got a dud! But no one else I know with EVs (Tesla, Nissan and VW) have had such problems.

Did any of them regularly have a word count to hit, and an audience of dyed in the wool luddites?

BP completely rebuilt the petrol station near us at Buntingford and finished it about 18 months ago, including about 15 x 150kw charging points.
They still haven't been able to open the EV chargers apparently because the grid can't support them there!

There's a long thread on this on Pistonheads (no surprise there) and I was surprised how many BEV owners were complaining about queues for charge points, apparently in cities, probably London. OK most were rattling around in £70-120k cars, so really a first world problem, but apparently even when they got one they found the charge rate was capped. Urban supplies are often capped at the substation, so unless there is a new supply laid or an HV supply and transformer you are limited to existing infrastructure.

Paul

[Urbandreamer]

BP completely rebuilt the petrol station near us at Buntingford and finished it about 18 months ago, including about 15 x 150kw charging points.
They still haven't been able to open the EV chargers apparently because the grid can't support them there!

It will take a long time to get adequate fast charging points installed!!

There's another near some friends of ours that likewise hasn't opened.

However, grid upgrades are in progress.
https://utilityweek.co.uk/national-grid ... k-upgrade/
Ok that one in particular won't address your charge point or the one I mentioned, but it's one of very many.

The Lincoln to Stevenage refurbishment forms part of National Grid’s £1 billion annual investment in maintaining and upgrading its infrastructure.

Actually, the program started some time ago. It's just not something that the general press thinks that the man in the street is interested in.
NG announced that they plan to spend £54bn on upgrades, in a different article.

There are official statistics on the growth of EV charge points.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... tober-2022
It's based upon industry reports of ones that you can use.
The growth seems quite geometric and fast to me. Of course, EV sales could be faster.

[Arborbridge]

He obviously got a dud! But no one else I know with EVs (Tesla, Nissan and VW) have had such problems.

Did any of them regularly have a word count to hit, and an audience of dyed in the wool luddites?

...

His final judgement has the ring of truth: that EVs are fine for short journeys but not yet fully acceptable for long journeys due to inadequacies in the infrastructure. This is not a luddite opinion but a statement of the obvious.

Arguably the issue is either that he had a word count to fill, or that the "statement of the obvious" should not have been a final judgement, but a judgement made before the purchase, or at least before the journey.

Anyone who does any research should know that EV range depends upon conditions. Range is lower in wintery conditions. Range also falls over time as the battery ages.
Everyone, that is, except those who don't do the research, like Mr Coren. Who has publicly stated that he expects the quoted range.
I wonder if he expects the quoted MPG for a petrol car. Driving conditions and style of driving do seem to affect that as well.

PLEASE don't be like Mr Coren.

Evaluate what is known before making a choice. If you intend travelling long distances, PLAN for that. Either buy a vehicle with that intent, rent, use a train or plane, or possibly plan your stops in advance and alternatives stops. I'd argue the same considerations should hold, even if you have rejected electric cars, possibly because your house has no parking.

Everything you are saying here really is in support of what Giles Coren concluded: that EVs and the infrastructure are not yet fit for the purpose intended - that of replacing ICEs.

And even hinting that all he is doing is fulfilling a word count rather than just reporting what he has found, is beneath you. Normally, when people write articles they are given a certain space to fill, but that does not undermine his message - a message also backed up by many other ordinary people who have been using EVs for some time.

BTW: I write as someone with an EV on order, which I am looking forward to with some trepidation because even though I have done the research (no doubt like Giles Coren), there is no substitute for actual experience.


Arb.

[Arborbridge]

BP completely rebuilt the petrol station near us at Buntingford and finished it about 18 months ago, including about 15 x 150kw charging points.
They still haven't been able to open the EV chargers apparently because the grid can't support them there!

It will take a long time to get adequate fast charging points installed!!

There's another near some friends of ours that likewise hasn't opened.

However, grid upgrades are in progress.
https://utilityweek.co.uk/national-grid ... k-upgrade/
Ok that one in particular won't address your charge point or the one I mentioned, but it's one of very many.

The Lincoln to Stevenage refurbishment forms part of National Grid’s £1 billion annual investment in maintaining and upgrading its infrastructure.

Actually, the program started some time ago. It's just not something that the general press thinks that the man in the street is interested in.
NG announced that they plan to spend £54bn on upgrades, in a different article.

There are official statistics on the growth of EV charge points.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... tober-2022
It's based upon industry reports of ones that you can use.
The growth seems quite geometric and fast to me. Of course, EV sales could be faster.

I think the growth of EVs could outrun the infrastructure for quite a while. I'm patient enough to take it as it comes and modify my use according to experience. I'll keep our other car, which is an ICE, for the time being.

Arb.

[bungeejumper]

Anyone who does any research should know that EV range depends upon conditions. Range is lower in wintery conditions. Range also falls over time as the battery ages.
Everyone, that is, except those who don't do the research, like Mr Coren. Who has publicly stated that he expects the quoted range.
I wonder if he expects the quoted MPG for a petrol car. Driving conditions and style of driving do seem to affect that as well.

PLEASE don't be like Mr Coren.

Giles Coren is a restaurant critic, a not very good part-time novelist, and a past winner of the Bad Sex in Literature award. He might be the son of one of the best satirists we've ever had in this country, but that doesn't make him an arbiter of anything. He has a long record of getting into public name-calling on Twitter, and I'm sure he sees himself as a spiky firebrand of some kind.

But would I trust him to read the instructions on a mug of soup, or to wire a three pin plug? Let alone hold a fully-researched opinion on a sophisticated electronic product?

Well, would you?

BJ

[88V8]

I'll keep our other car, which is an ICE, for the time being.

If you run an EV, being able to jump into a petrol car is the ICEing on the cake...

[Arborbridge]

Anyone who does any research should know that EV range depends upon conditions. Range is lower in wintery conditions. Range also falls over time as the battery ages.
Everyone, that is, except those who don't do the research, like Mr Coren. Who has publicly stated that he expects the quoted range.
I wonder if he expects the quoted MPG for a petrol car. Driving conditions and style of driving do seem to affect that as well.

PLEASE don't be like Mr Coren.

Giles Coren is a restaurant critic, a not very good part-time novelist, and a past winner of the Bad Sex in Literature award. He might be the son of one of the best satirists we've ever had in this country, but that doesn't make him an arbiter of anything. He has a long record of getting into public name-calling on Twitter, and I'm sure he sees himself as a spiky firebrand of some kind.

But would I trust him to read the instructions on a mug of soup, or to wire a three pin plug? Let alone hold a fully-researched opinion on a sophisticated electronic product?

Well, would you?

BJ

I'd expect anyone to be able to report their experience: you do not have to be an expert to do that. That is what people on these boards do, afterall, and I daresay not many of us are "experts".
It is really not a good look to dismiss the messenger on the spurious ground that the messenger isn't an expert.

Would I take your opinion of Giles Coren as an indicator of the truth he is recounting? Well, would I? Especially taking into account that there have been several other similar accounts of problems encountered when using infrastructure.
No - you are just guilty of shooting the messenger, like several other people here, because what he relates is uncomfortable to hear.

Arb.

[Urbandreamer]

And even hinting that all he is doing is fulfilling a word count rather than just reporting what he has found, is beneath you. Normally, when people write articles they are given a certain space to fill, but that does not undermine his message - a message also backed up by many other ordinary people who have been using EVs for some time.

I supported another's opinion, though you are right to comment about my faults. I have not read the original article, only extracts.
I would however question if all his complaints are backed up by many EV users.

I was, for some time, a member of BEV.
https://en-gb.facebook.com/BatteryVehicleS/

They seemed quite happy with their experiences.

Mr Coren apparently ran out of range, during winter, possibly during bad weather, possibly after driving at motorway speeds, on a two year old battery, at some 75% of the quoted new range of his EV.

That is not something that he should have "found". It's something that he should have expected.

Using easily available info.

A google turns up that you should expect a 15-20% range reduction in winter.
You can get a similar reduction in range at motorway speeds.
On this thread, energy consumption in wet weather has been covered, but it turns up on a web search.
A google report's 2-3% range loss per year as batteries age.

Tell me, did he even check his tyre pressures? Under inflated tyres lead to a 4% reduction in MPG, this would affect EV range. The extracts make it clear that he thinks these range reductions should not exist, which might be why he had the problem that he did.

So, some words of advice, since you are going the EV route. Think about what will affect your range. If intending to recharge on route, find multiple options. Consider an app (which Mr Coren doesn't want), which can inform you of charge point options and availability.

[bungeejumper]

I'd expect anyone to be able to report their experience: you do not have to be an expert to do that. That is what people on these boards do, afterall, and I daresay not many of us are "experts".
It is really not a good look to dismiss the messenger on the spurious ground that the messenger isn't an expert.

The difference, though, is that Coren is standing at a press pulpit, with a readership of millions for which he's being amply paid. Whereas the rest of us aren't. The standards of expertise and judgement required are different. Well, unless we're prepared to take the commentators unseriously from the word go, that is. (There are certainly situations where that is OK.)

Would I take your opinion of Giles Coren as an indicator of the truth he is recounting? Well, would I? Especially taking into account that there have been several other similar accounts of problems encountered when using infrastructure.
No - you are just guilty of shooting the messenger, like several other people here, because what he relates is uncomfortable to hear.

Giles has spent a lot of time saying things that are "uncomfortable" to hear. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giles_Coren ought to provide a few starters.) They may form part of my assessment of his flaky personal judgement, but I agree, in this case he's just a user, not a specialist. On the whole, I'm happier listening to the views of professional messengers who are at least nominally expert in the field of what they're writing about.

Oddly, though, I'm struck by how you and I have switched positions. You're about to buy an EV, for which I very much admire you, and you've given brave voice to doubts about the current viability of the infrastructural proposition. And I, on the other side, am not going to buy one (yet), even though I love the idea, but even I can see that the shortcomings which have so annoyed Mr Coren ought to have been fully foreseeable before he made the decision to buy that model for those sorts of trips.

One of which was that range anxiety and the occasional two-hour wait for a charging bay were likely to be part of the package. If he didn't research those before he signed on the line, then it seems reasonable to ask why not?

BJ

[Dod101]

He obviously got a dud! But no one else I know with EVs (Tesla, Nissan and VW) have had such problems.

Did any of them regularly have a word count to hit, and an audience of dyed in the wool luddites?

...

His final judgement has the ring of truth: that EVs are fine for short journeys but not yet fully acceptable for long journeys due to inadequacies in the infrastructure. This is not a luddite opinion but a statement of the obvious.

Arguably the issue is either that he had a word count to fill, or that the "statement of the obvious" should not have been a final judgement, but a judgement made before the purchase, or at least before the journey.

Anyone who does any research should know that EV range depends upon conditions. Range is lower in wintery conditions. Range also falls over time as the battery ages.
Everyone, that is, except those who don't do the research, like Mr Coren. Who has publicly stated that he expects the quoted range.
I wonder if he expects the quoted MPG for a petrol car. Driving conditions and style of driving do seem to affect that as well.

PLEASE don't be like Mr Coren.

Evaluate what is known before making a choice. If you intend travelling long distances, PLAN for that. Either buy a vehicle with that intent, rent, use a train or plane, or possibly plan your stops in advance and alternatives stops. I'd argue the same considerations should hold, even if you have rejected electric cars, possibly because your house has no parking.

Well, given the choice why on earth would I pay more for an EV, with all the other issues it has such as range, reliability and available charging points when I can buy a petrol engined vehicle with a range of about 450 miles with a proven technology. No need to plan for anything, just go. Giles Coren may have bought a Friday afternoon EV but irrespective of what else he does for a living, he is just as capable as the rest of us in evaluating his experience of an EV. He was not just writing/reporting about the range but also the reliability of his vehicle.

I understand the concern about climate issues but why should I be the one who exposes himself to an unreliable technology?

Dod

[Arborbridge]

Oddly, though, I'm struck by how you and I have switched positions. You're about to buy an EV, for which I very much admire you, and you've given brave voice to doubts about the current viability of the infrastructural proposition. And I, on the other side, am not going to buy one (yet), even though I love the idea, but even I can see that the shortcomings which have so annoyed Mr Coren ought to have been fully foreseeable before he made the decision to buy that model for those sorts of trips.

One of which was that range anxiety and the occasional two-hour wait for a charging bay were likely to be part of the package. If he didn't research those before he signed on the line, then it seems reasonable to ask why not?

BJ

I find that quite amusing too! Rationally, it is difficult to make the case for an EV - the greenest thing, and the cheapest way to go would be to run my diesel for as long as possible. That's a no brainer - particularly for my small annual mileage

This could might be my last car, and I just wanted to try an EV before I give up driving - not because it's cheaper to power etc, but just for the experience. I am looking forward to the challenges of routing and the compromises that will have to be made: I knew about these things and will adapt. Luckily, I can choose when to drive and don't need to rush off on a bank holiday! I am more apprehensive about other aspects, such as the software on the ID3 which quite flaky even after several versions. But most people who have one seem to love driving them, so I just concentrate my thoughts on the probability that I will receive a good one.

PS you seem to assume that Giles Coren didn't research before buying and ask why not. I think you'll find he did, but as I say there's nothing like being confronted by real life. (Like the difference between runnning a dummy portfolio and a real one )

Arb.

[Dod101]

Oddly, though, I'm struck by how you and I have switched positions. You're about to buy an EV, for which I very much admire you, and you've given brave voice to doubts about the current viability of the infrastructural proposition. And I, on the other side, am not going to buy one (yet), even though I love the idea, but even I can see that the shortcomings which have so annoyed Mr Coren ought to have been fully foreseeable before he made the decision to buy that model for those sorts of trips.

One of which was that range anxiety and the occasional two-hour wait for a charging bay were likely to be part of the package. If he didn't research those before he signed on the line, then it seems reasonable to ask why not?

BJ

I find that quite amusing too! Rationally, it is difficult to make the case for an EV - the greenest thing, and the cheapest way to go would be to run my diesel for as long as possible. That's a no brainer - particularly for my small annual mileage

This could might be my last car, and I just wanted to try an EV before I give up driving - not because it's cheaper to power etc, but just for the experience. I am looking forward to the challenges of routing and the compromises that will have to be made: I knew about these things and will adapt. Luckily, I can choose when to drive and don't need to rush off on a bank holiday! I am more apprehensive about other aspects, such as the software on the ID3 which quite flaky even after several versions. But most people who have one seem to love driving them, so I just concentrate my thoughts on the probability that I will receive a good one.

PS you seem to assume that Giles Coren didn't research before buying and ask why not. I think you'll find he did, but as I say there's nothing like being confronted by real life. (Like the difference between runnning a dummy portfolio and a real one )

Arb.

Yes Arb. Good for you. You either have a stronger conscience than me re climate change or are braver! I could not be bothered.

Dod

[BobbyD]

He obviously got a dud! But no one else I know with EVs (Tesla, Nissan and VW) have had such problems.

Did any of them regularly have a word count to hit, and an audience of dyed in the wool luddites?

I think that's akin to shooting the messenger.

If the messenger's message is anything other than that having picked a singularly unsuccessful example of a vehicle class which appears to be a singularly inappropriate vehicle class for his use case his employer needs to start looking for a more competent replacement then a metaphorical shooting might well be in order.

...unless of course his job is actually to fill word counts and start arguments which will see more people directed to read those words ...and this isn't a personal criticism, it is what passes for journalism in the clickbait era. Insufficiently knowledgeable on his subject or professional trolling, either way...

Coming next week:

'I bought a Mini, and would you believe it, it's an absolute pig to move house with

Down with small cars it turns out they aren't all things to all men'.

There are millions of cars in this country alone for which electrics are not only a viable, but a good, replacement. Surprisingly they aren't yet as universally applicable as a technology which has over a century of continuous R&D and infrastructure installation behind it. The thing is nobody credible is claiming they are. BEV's don't need to be able to replace ICE vehicles in a binary now we are ICE now we are BEV switch. They merely need to progressively increase their capabilities as their production increases to replace ICE market use case by use case.

If you buy a BEV for sustained long distance travel, whilst living on the 37th floor of a tower block with no off street parking when it doesn't to be a joyous ownership experience the fault doesn't lie with the volt but with the dolt who bought it.

I suspect that a large number of the recently disappointed are people who aren't used to having to make compromises and bought their vehicles because they were massive BIK tax benefits with shiny German badges on the bonnet...

Electric cars ARE coming.

UK vehicle registrations





Marketshare



- https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

The product is continually improving. Granted it's not entirely unlikely that given the 13 years which have elapsed since the legislation which ensured that the European market would turn electric, and the UK with it, passed in to law, the 7-10 years until all new vehicles are electric and more years yet while Diesel, Petrol and hybrid vehicles remain in the national fleet it is entirely possible that this country will be absolutely stunned and amazed by the 'sudden' emergence of BEV's and find itself singularly ill equipped to deal with it, but again not really the fault of BEV's if the UK can't organise an illicit afterhours car meet in an unlocked supermarket car park, but there aren't enough cars in the supply to do all the things they can do perfectly well yet, let alone to do the things they will be capable of in 3-5 years.

His final judgement has the ring of truth: that EVs are fine for short journeys but not yet fully acceptable for long journeys due to inadequacies in the infrastructure. This is not a luddite opinion but a statement of the obvious.

If it's that obvious then he must have known he was buying the wrong car and a reliable source of column inches when he, well, bought the wrong car...

Like I said, nobody credible claims that BEV's are currently an ideal replacement for every ICE use case.

Everything you are saying here really is in support of what Giles Coren concluded: that EVs and the infrastructure are not yet fit for the purpose intended - that of replacing ICEs.

Three little words missing from your definition of the purpose of EV's which invalidate your conclusion ...'over twenty years'.