Elderly relative driving

[Gerry557]

Some of the elderly drivers I know tend to adjust there driving habits to their reduced abilities. Some won't go on motorways other limit the distance to just a few miles so supermarket or family trips etc.

The 5 year gap I think is your biggest issue. Has the car changed too. An automatic might help.

The advice above regarding additional lessons would be my way forward.

Were you the driver that would be fine, but the OP is not and the driver sounds pretty confident. Some gentle advice might be a good thing but that is all he can do.

The thing is unless he is banned on medical grounds such as eyesight, it is entirely up to the driver and no one else has any say.



Dod

I'm sure lots of people will have "a say." Granted some hold more sway than others. I know one family where their elderly mother was being advised to stop. The other half said keep going. The car offered the means of independance so I can understand the need to keep going. There had been a few scrapes from parking near a wall but the person trying to stop the driver wasn't going to take them to the shops or visit the spouce in the care home daily.

It's easier to say stop if you can provide additional support. Another elderly driver was convinced to stop. She kept forgetting where the car was left and kept getting lost. I don't think the standard of driving was the issue. The final straw was ending up 30 miles away and needing someone to go and fetch when the original journey was only a mile away.

It's a difficult choice.

Moderator Message:
I have tried to untangle this post and correct the quoting. Please let me know if it is not right still
RedSturgeon

[Lootman]

Some of the elderly drivers I know tend to adjust there driving habits to their reduced abilities. Some won't go on motorways other limit the distance to just a few miles so supermarket or family trips etc.

The 5 year gap I think is your biggest issue. Has the car changed too. An automatic might help.

Yes, this, at some point my uncle stopped driving at night and bought a car with an automatic gearbox.

There is a compromise between driving everywhere and driving nowhere.

[kempiejon]

My dad and uncle tell the tale about how this worked with my elderly grandfather. My dad had come back from a journey with him which had worried dad as grandad clearly couldn't see or pay enough attention to the other users around him properly. Sometime in the following weeks the car needed to go to the garage for repairs and the garage owner was encouraged to tell grandad the car wasn't roadworthy and uneconomical to repair - grandad decided he didn't want to have to go through the process of buying a new car nor did he really drive that much anyway.

A chum at work as taken his mum's car and car keys off her several times since the Dr. said she couldn't drive. She reported the car stolen to the police and deneied any knowledge of the conversations.

Soon we'll have self driving cars and not have to worry about this. SO never learnt to drive and has been saying for years that she doesn't need to bother as self drivers will along any time now.

[Dod101]

In fact although it has little to do with the original query where I live you can have a taxi driver more or less on call for less than the cost of running a car and it is a lot less of a hassle for many.

Dod

[quelquod]

Some of the elderly drivers I know tend to adjust there driving habits to their reduced abilities. Some won't go on motorways other limit the distance to just a few miles so supermarket or family trips etc.

The 5 year gap I think is your biggest issue. Has the car changed too. An automatic might help.

Yes, this, at some point my uncle stopped driving at night and bought a car with an automatic gearbox.

There is a compromise between driving everywhere and driving nowhere.

You get quite able 90-year-olds and incapable 60-year-olds and the OP points to a lengthy accident-free record prior to the relative’s medical problems. If he’s one of the former the chances are that he’s able to make sensible decisions and compromises for himself so by all means suggest a refresher course and any other way to ease himself back in to driving, but really if the OP has no demonstrable evidence of incapacity surely there’s nothing needs done. There’s no need to assume a responsibility you don’t have just on the basis of his age. I get pretty uptight when I read of suggestions such as ageist restricting and retesting and the like for people who are probably the least accident-prone drivers in the population.

[pje16]

I get pretty uptight when I read of suggestions such as ageist restricting and retesting and the like for people who are probably the least accident-prone drivers in the population.

you can get uptight, but it costs more per claim

"Are older drivers riskier? Data from the Association of British Insurers (ABI) shows claims costs escalate with age. It says: “Industry claims data points to the average cost of a motor claim increasing once you are aged over 80. For drivers over the age of 90, the average motor claim is £5,670. This compares with £4,195 for drivers aged 18-20.” However, claims frequency among older drivers is substantially below that of younger drivers."
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/ ... -than-2000

[kempiejon]

The government even publish a fact sheet.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... sheet-2020

The accident rates per billion miles travelled falls as age increases from 17 until we hit the over 76s and it increases with age. 86 plus having more accidents than any other group.
There's a conclusion that driving is much safer than walking and cycling per billion miles travelled by older types too.

[quelquod]

I get pretty uptight when I read of suggestions such as ageist restricting and retesting and the like for people who are probably the least accident-prone drivers in the population.

you can get uptight, but it costs more per claim

"Are older drivers riskier? Data from the Association of British Insurers (ABI) shows claims costs escalate with age. It says: “Industry claims data points to the average cost of a motor claim increasing once you are aged over 80. For drivers over the age of 90, the average motor claim is £5,670. This compares with £4,195 for drivers aged 18-20.” However, claims frequency among older drivers is substantially below that of younger drivers."
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/ ... -than-2000

(My bold) and this is surely my point?
It’s not uncommon for older drivers to own more expensive cars and there are various contributory factors to costs irrelevant to driving safety.

[pje16]

I get pretty uptight when I read of suggestions such as ageist restricting and retesting and the like for people who are probably the least accident-prone drivers in the population.

you can get uptight, but it costs more per claim

"Are older drivers riskier? Data from the Association of British Insurers (ABI) shows claims costs escalate with age. It says: “Industry claims data points to the average cost of a motor claim increasing once you are aged over 80. For drivers over the age of 90, the average motor claim is £5,670. This compares with £4,195 for drivers aged 18-20. ”However, claims frequency among older drivers is substantially below that of younger drivers."
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/ ... -than-2000

(My bold) and this is surely my point?

read mine in red
Would you rather pay 3 fivers or 1 x£20 pound note

[AF62]

You get quite able 90-year-olds and incapable 60-year-olds and the OP points to a lengthy accident-free record prior to the relative’s medical problems.

But five years is a hell of a long time for anyone, but at age 90!

If he’s one of the former the chances are that he’s able to make sensible decisions

But they are making their decision on how they drove five years earlier, and that gives no indication how safe they are driving now.

but really if the OP has no demonstrable evidence of incapacity surely there’s nothing needs done. There’s no need to assume a responsibility you don’t have just on the basis of his age. I get pretty uptight when I read of suggestions such as ageist restricting and retesting and the like for people who are probably the least accident-prone drivers in the population.

I completely disagree.

If you believe someone of any age has health issues that potentially compromise whether they can drive safely then it would be irresponsible not to report it to the DVLA.

[9873210]

I agree with that although if someone is driving with less than perfect sight, that could well be against the law.

You can legally drive with eyesight that is a good deal less than perfect. A large majority of the population can pass which means the standard is in fact "a good deal below average".

I can pass the test with a pair of my ten-year-old glasses. It's amazing how poorly you can see and still pass.

But the requirements for temperament and judgement are even lower than the ones for eyesight. Really need to get some of those irate drivers off the road.

People really need to stop expecting everyone else to be perfect, allow for others to make moderate "mistakes". And yes, that includes shaking off the dumb BMW tricks by irate drivers, leave enforcement to the police.

[Lootman]

I agree with that although if someone is driving with less than perfect sight, that could well be against the law.

You can legally drive with eyesight that is a good deal less than perfect. A large majority of the population can pass which means the standard is in fact "a good deal below average".

I can pass the test with a pair of my ten-year-old glasses. It's amazing how poorly you can see and still pass.

Agreed. For that matter it is amazing how poorly you can see and still be able to drive fairly well. A loss of visual acuity makes it more difficult to read at a distance. So street names and numbers become harder to see. But satnav solves a lot of that for you anyway. Reading a number plate is the test and yet that is not a driving skill at all. And road signs tend to be very large and clear.

Driving vision is more about seeing larger objects, judging movement and distance, and peripheral vision. And you can drive safely with 20/30 or 20/40 vision. In fact Florida (which has a huge senior population) has just a 20/70 requirement for a driving license.

[airbus330]

Had this conundrum with my father in law. He was one of the 'never had an accident types' but being in the car was a horrific roller coaster of near misses. I seriously thought about reporting him to DVLA just before nature settled the issue for me. When I disposed of his car the only panel without a dent or scratch was the roof. I'm afraid that we boomers are probably going to face a retest or assessment at around 80, plus I'd be up for compulsory eye testing. With more and more soft targets to hit in our busy world, its the only sensible way, until the self driving car becomes commonplace.

[Lootman]

Had this conundrum with my father in law. He was one of the 'never had an accident types' but being in the car was a horrific roller coaster of near misses. I seriously thought about reporting him to DVLA just before nature settled the issue for me. When I disposed of his car the only panel without a dent or scratch was the roof. I'm afraid that we boomers are probably going to face a retest or assessment at around 80, plus I'd be up for compulsory eye testing.

In the US you have to renew your license every 5 years, in person, and a (very brief) eyesight test is part of that. Basically just reading the letters on a Snellen chart from a distance and again close up. Alternatively you can get a report from your eye doctor.

Reporting a parent to any authority would not be something most people would do. It would not feel right. And the parent will probably figure out it was you and cut you out of their Will!

[AF62]

People really need to stop expecting everyone else to be perfect, allow for others to make moderate "mistakes".

Could you define ‘moderate "mistakes"’ -

Is it a mistake that only leads to damage to another car?
Is it a mistake that only puts an innocent bystander in A&E and off work for a week?
Is it a mistake that only kills one person out of the couple the imperfect driver has hit?

At the end of the day a driver is responsible for a tonne or two of metal moving at speed, and it’s not unreasonable to expect their health allows them to do that in reasonable safety.

[redsturgeon]

People really need to stop expecting everyone else to be perfect, allow for others to make moderate "mistakes".

Could you define ‘moderate "mistakes"’ -

Is it a mistake that only leads to damage to another car?
Is it a mistake that only puts an innocent bystander in A&E and off work for a week?
Is it a mistake that only kills one person out of the couple the imperfect driver has hit?

At the end of the day a driver is responsible for a tonne or two of metal moving at speed, and it’s not unreasonable to expect their health allows them to do that in reasonable safety.

I friend of mine runs a gym in the centre of the town. It is adjacent to a car park, the exit of which points straight at the side wall of the gym. Three times in the past few years an elderly driver has driven out of the carpark straight into the brick wall of the gym. Apparently the automatic cars they were driving unexpectedly surged forward!

The last time it happened the car ended up halfway into the gym and would have seriously injured anyone in the way. They now have substantial metal barriers installed in front of the wall.

An automatic car is not necessarily the safer option.

John

[AF62]

An automatic car is not necessarily the safer option.

And likely to become more of an issue with EVs tending to have a rotary dial or switch to select forward or reverse not the traditional automatic gearstick, no physical handbrake but an automatic electronic handbrake that releases when you press the accelerator, and incredible instantaneous torque to power two tonnes of lithium battery.

[9873210]

People really need to stop expecting everyone else to be perfect, allow for others to make moderate "mistakes".

Could you define ‘moderate "mistakes"’ -

Is it a mistake that only leads to damage to another car?
Is it a mistake that only puts an innocent bystander in A&E and off work for a week?
Is it a mistake that only kills one person out of the couple the imperfect driver has hit?

At the end of the day a driver is responsible for a tonne or two of metal moving at speed, and it’s not unreasonable to expect their health allows them to do that in reasonable safety.

Typically several steps before you begin your list. Although you should not rate mistakes entirely by their consequences.

In the case of pulling out of a side road. If crossing traffic has to brake it is a mistake. If the cross traffic has to activate anti-lock brakes to avoid a crash it's more than moderate, but the crossing driver would ideally still avoid a crash in most cases. If a crash occurred despite the cross driver activating anti-lock brakes it's a very serious mistake. If there is a crash and the cross driver did not brake at all it's usually two mistakes. In all case reasonable judgement has to be used because it is possible that the cross driver is mostly mistaken (e.g. excessive speed with limited sight lines) or not at all mistaken (e.g. pulling out driver hits the side of crossing car)

[AF62]

People really need to stop expecting everyone else to be perfect, allow for others to make moderate "mistakes".

Could you define ‘moderate "mistakes"’ -

Is it a mistake that only leads to damage to another car?
Is it a mistake that only puts an innocent bystander in A&E and off work for a week?
Is it a mistake that only kills one person out of the couple the imperfect driver has hit?

At the end of the day a driver is responsible for a tonne or two of metal moving at speed, and it’s not unreasonable to expect their health allows them to do that in reasonable safety.

Typically several steps before you begin your list. Although you should not rate mistakes entirely by their consequences.

In the case of pulling out of a side road. If crossing traffic has to brake it is a mistake. If the cross traffic has to activate anti-lock brakes to avoid a crash it's more than moderate, but the crossing driver would ideally still avoid a crash in most cases. If a crash occurred despite the cross driver activating anti-lock brakes it's a very serious mistake. If there is a crash and the cross driver did not brake at all it's usually two mistakes. In all case reasonable judgement has to be used because it is possible that the cross driver is mostly mistaken (e.g. excessive speed with limited sight lines) or not at all mistaken (e.g. pulling out driver hits the side of crossing car)

Sorry but that’s nonsense.

Whether the driver pulling out who didn’t look / couldn’t see, then whether it results in a motorcyclist who goes head first into a lamppost killing themselves because the only option they had was to drop the bike, or someone in a modern car with every technological benefit available to enable them to avoid hitting the car, in both cases the driver pulling out has made the same dangerous mistake.

[ClaudiusTheIdiot]

Thanks for the many replies. Where to start? There are so many points I can't possibly quote them all, so please excuse this.

I think the eyesight point is the most promising if I can think of a way to sneak it in.

I did suggest getting someone to go with him the first time but he laughed it off. I did point out that driving and parking is a hassle, but - he will only go when and where it's not too busy. He will "see how it goes" - I hope he will conclude that it doesn't "go" before he hurts someone.

I had misgivings about his driving before he lost his licence. There is no way I'll let him drive me now - he has been told it's not safe so he won't be surprised.

He has been passed as medically fit by the specialist and his gp.

I have put a number of points to him, including some that have been suggested. He dismisses them all. Basically he misses driving though doesn't say so.

Need and convenience have little to do with it although he cites convenience. There is a bus stop very near and a decent bus service. Also he can use taxis and volunteer drivers. He isn't hard up so can afford whatever it costs. His car is automatic as has been the case for a long time.

Anther close relative expressed dismay when I informed them.

I too don't think there is a lot we can do. It's just hope that this comes to a conclusion without anyone getting hurt.