Problems with repairing EVs

[Arborbridge]

I reckon the last few posts underline the heavy risk that anyone buying and owning an EV is exposing themselves too. Its a very Donald Rumsfeld series of unknowns.
If you're convinced that EV is your way forward, at least mitigate the risk and lease the wretched thing.
As the old saying goes, if it flies, floats, farts or fornicates, rent it. I'm trying to think of a suitable F word for an EV

One of the main risks hasn't been mentioned: the bad publicity which for some unknown reason, the EV idea seems to attract.

Sure, there's a long way to go before EVs are fully acceptable, but I don't think we are in the Rumsfeld situation, entirely. EVs have been around for quite a while now - the Nissan Leaf since 2010 - so there is a lot of knowledge and experience out there.

I must declare that I have one foot in either camp, having had a new ID3 delivered a week ago, but also keeping our Mercedes diesel as a second car. For me, the EV is an interesting experiment before my driving years come to a close. The trade-offs were ones I was willing to make in order to have the experience, where logic suggested I should just buy another ICE. I wouldn't blame anyone for concluding the time is not yet ripe. I am, however, convinced that EVs will be more "normalised" in future and will probably peak in, say 15-20 years, until hydrogen technology begins to be more attractive in the market.

The main problems for EVs - infrastructure not growing as fast as adption, high public charging costs*, marginal range and/or slow charging rates - will mitigate in the coming years. We already see a considerable number of EVs on the roads, and the numbers are incrfeasing. Like any newish technology, it'll take time to iron out what problems remain, but they are well beyond the "first adopter" stage, and with the huge amounts of money put in, they are not going to fade out any time soon. All the problems which have been mentioned in this thread have either been exagerrated or will be mitigated before long.

BTW: very pleased with the car, so far! I can understand that once people buy an EV, they do not willing revert to an ICE.

*It's far cheaper to go diesel on a long journey, unfortunately.
Arb.

[Arborbridge]

You can buy a used EV for less than £5k.

As for the rest of your views, simply not my experience of owning and driving an EV for the last couple of years, regularly driving long distances across the country.

Respect your views, and although I don't share them, I'll probably have to join the club at some point

WRT 5k EV's. Yes there are. Mainly 10+ yr Leaf or Zoe's with leased battery. I could bore you with the travails of my cousin's ancient Leaf, but i won't

I could bore you with the tale of my daughter in law's petrol Mini, but I won't. In short, it was unrepairable - none of several mechanics could find out what was wrong with it, even main agent garages.
We should always resist the temptation to generalise from the particular, but the trouble is that all we can experience is the particular!

[AF62]

Respect your views, and although I don't share them, I'll probably have to join the club at some point

Do so, you don’t know what you are missing!

For me it’s the joy of walking out the front door in January to jump in a nicely pre-heated car whilst watching my neighbour scraping the windscreen on his £70k RS Audi.

[Lootman]

Respect your views, and although I don't share them, I'll probably have to join the club at some point

Do so, you don’t know what you are missing!

For me it’s the joy of walking out the front door in January to jump in a nicely pre-heated car whilst watching my neighbour scraping the windscreen on his £70k RS Audi.

Or you could have a garage?

[Arborbridge]

Green Credentials- you might not have done so, but government and many other organisations are pressuring their populations to go electric for eco reasons, up to the point of legislating IC vehicles out of existence.
Fire Risk- the risk is different and far less well understood for electrical cars. Fire emergency services are still struggling to come up with practical strategies to contain a fire that will burn for many hours, even days.
Range- Again, your valid personal experience, but the 8 hr queues to top up charge on the M5 over Christmas tend to suggest otherwise.
Poor Infrastructure-You speak as you find, but it is generally accepted that the UK in particular has allowed EV sales to outstrip EV charging infrastructure and there is no great willingness for government or industry to accelerate the roll out of chargers.
Higher Insurance - I can only relate what I have read. But the insurance industry are usually pretty quick to spot a risk.
Affordability- I looked at this last year. A petrol base Vauxhall Corsa is c 19k the E-Corsa was 28k. At this moment depreciation on EV's is high due to stagnant demand in the used market, which may change. The running costs have significantly increased if you don't have easy access to home charging on a friendly tariff, preferably topped up with an expensive solar/battery home system.
What do poorer people do buying at the 8k pricepoint, where the vehicle may have a 10k battery liability?
ReSale value-- this is known unknown as the development of EVs has been rapid, but still in small numbers vs ICE cars. Even car dealers (source Car Dealer Mag) are unwilling to price EVs at this time due to the opacity of the market.
Repairability- Eventually it will be everybody's problem. If EVs do become to only game in town, repair issues will force up the costs of insurance, reduce availability of used cars thus distorting the market prices. This before we even start to think about what to do with the written off EV's. The idea of affordable motoring for the masses starts to become worryingly diminished. I have to confess that this last point is the one that really concerns me, as it seems clear to me that the political direction of travel is to price the majority of folk off the road and onto public transport. The EV is just a stalking horse helping them to achieve this.

Your replies are a bit of a curate's egg - in my view a smattering of truth, but not the whole truth. THis is one of those classic discussions where the argument becomes quite circular, to no one's benefit. What's happening is that we have one person with experience being told that he is "wrong" by someone apparently without experience.

Oh well, you pays yer money and takes yer pick, as ever. Having just joined the EV owners, perhaps I could reserve my own judgement and report back in a year? Then I'll feel a little better qualified.

What I will say, is that I am doubtful whether there is a rational economic reason for anyone to go EV at present. Do so if you want quiet motoring, are interested in the green issue, or (like me) simply want to try one before getting to old to drive. But the economic argument is at best thin - my cheapest and greenest option would be to run my diesel until it drops dead, but I did not want to do that.

Arb.

[AF62]

Do so, you don’t know what you are missing!

For me it’s the joy of walking out the front door in January to jump in a nicely pre-heated car whilst watching my neighbour scraping the windscreen on his £70k RS Audi.

Or you could have a garage?

I do, but it has another car in it

But as an alternative example being out for the evening in the winter and pre-heating for your arrival from the restaurant, theatre, cinema, etc. Or in the summer cooling it in the car park where it was all day whilst you were sightseeing.

[airbus330]

Respect your views, and although I don't share them, I'll probably have to join the club at some point

Do so, you don’t know what you are missing!

For me it’s the joy of walking out the front door in January to jump in a nicely pre-heated car whilst watching my neighbour scraping the windscreen on his £70k RS Audi.

At the risk of being flip. Your driving joy will end with the pre-heated cabin, whilst the RS's owner will begin when he/she starts that engine

[airbus330]

Green Credentials- you might not have done so, but government and many other organisations are pressuring their populations to go electric for eco reasons, up to the point of legislating IC vehicles out of existence.
Fire Risk- the risk is different and far less well understood for electrical cars. Fire emergency services are still struggling to come up with practical strategies to contain a fire that will burn for many hours, even days.
Range- Again, your valid personal experience, but the 8 hr queues to top up charge on the M5 over Christmas tend to suggest otherwise.
Poor Infrastructure-You speak as you find, but it is generally accepted that the UK in particular has allowed EV sales to outstrip EV charging infrastructure and there is no great willingness for government or industry to accelerate the roll out of chargers.
Higher Insurance - I can only relate what I have read. But the insurance industry are usually pretty quick to spot a risk.
Affordability- I looked at this last year. A petrol base Vauxhall Corsa is c 19k the E-Corsa was 28k. At this moment depreciation on EV's is high due to stagnant demand in the used market, which may change. The running costs have significantly increased if you don't have easy access to home charging on a friendly tariff, preferably topped up with an expensive solar/battery home system.
What do poorer people do buying at the 8k pricepoint, where the vehicle may have a 10k battery liability?
ReSale value-- this is known unknown as the development of EVs has been rapid, but still in small numbers vs ICE cars. Even car dealers (source Car Dealer Mag) are unwilling to price EVs at this time due to the opacity of the market.
Repairability- Eventually it will be everybody's problem. If EVs do become to only game in town, repair issues will force up the costs of insurance, reduce availability of used cars thus distorting the market prices. This before we even start to think about what to do with the written off EV's. The idea of affordable motoring for the masses starts to become worryingly diminished. I have to confess that this last point is the one that really concerns me, as it seems clear to me that the political direction of travel is to price the majority of folk off the road and onto public transport. The EV is just a stalking horse helping them to achieve this.

Your replies are a bit of a curate's egg - in my view a smattering of truth, but not the whole truth. THis is one of those classic discussions where the argument becomes quite circular, to no one's benefit. What's happening is that we have one person with experience being told that he is "wrong" by someone apparently without experience.

Oh well, you pays yer money and takes yer pick, as ever. Having just joined the EV owners, perhaps I could reserve my own judgement and report back in a year? Then I'll feel a little better qualified.

What I will say, is that I am doubtful whether there is a rational economic reason for anyone to go EV at present. Do so if you want quiet motoring, are interested in the green issue, or (like me) simply want to try one before getting to old to drive. But the economic argument is at best thin - my cheapest and greenest option would be to run my diesel until it drops dead, but I did not want to do that.

Arb.

I thinks thats a bit unfair. I haven't been to the moon but there is plenty of data out there to educate me about it! Nothing I said hasn't been written up in the motoring press or MSM. I've recently acquired a new car and I looked at plenty of electric options before rejecting them for a MHEV, which does make economic sense and is fun to drive.

However, as you say, the pure EV economic argument, perhaps the most relevant for Lemon Fool, really doesn't stack up right now. I don't doubt that it will in the future, whatever the future of personal transport looks like.

[AF62]

Do so, you don’t know what you are missing!

For me it’s the joy of walking out the front door in January to jump in a nicely pre-heated car whilst watching my neighbour scraping the windscreen on his £70k RS Audi.

At the risk of being flip. Your driving joy will end with the pre-heated cabin, whilst the RS's owner will begin when he/she starts that engine

Nah. Early on a summer weekend morning when the roads are empty then absolutely.

But 7.30am on a freezing cold Tuesday morning in January when the traffic is crawling everywhere with people trying to get to work then a car is simply a 'tool' to get you from A to B, so if I can do that journey in comfort and doing exactly the same speed as the fastest car out there - well that's a win for me.

[Arborbridge]

Do so, you don’t know what you are missing!

For me it’s the joy of walking out the front door in January to jump in a nicely pre-heated car whilst watching my neighbour scraping the windscreen on his £70k RS Audi.

At the risk of being flip. Your driving joy will end with the pre-heated cabin, whilst the RS's owner will begin when he/she starts that engine

I can assure you the EV driver's enjoyment extends to driving the car after "starting" the engine. Immediate acceleration or a quiet ride are valued by some.
Different sort of enjoyment - each to his own.

As regards your reply to me

I thinks thats a bit unfair.

I would say the same to you. Your original points were all couched in terms which - in my view - lean too much in the other direction in order to win an argument against EVs: the truth but by no means the whole truth. As I said, there is no point in answering each individual point because you would simply retort by splitting finer and finer hairs, or using different value judgements about the various facets. So I shall engage no further in the detail.

We've agreed that there is some way to go before EVs are univerally accepted or economically compelling: but that's about as far as we can agree for the moment. Let's leave it there.

I did consider a PHEV or MHEV but decided to go fully EV - it was a close call, though.

Arb.

[CliffEdge]

EVs are not priced for the mass market and are designed for limited lifespan. Everyone on here is considerably wealthier than average so has an untypical assessment of affordability.
Personal transport options for the proles are being deliberately withdrawn. Whether this is a good or bad thing (or even unavoidable) is a matter for discussion elsewhere.

[Arborbridge]

EVs are not priced for the mass market and are designed for limited lifespan. Everyone on here is considerably wealthier than average so has an untypical assessment of affordability.
Personal transport options for the proles are being deliberately withdrawn. Whether this is a good or bad thing (or even unavoidable) is a matter for discussion elsewhere.

All products are now designed for a limited life span, and the unrepairability aspect has been, sadly, increasing for 50 years or more.

As regards ordinary folk, I think ICE's will be running for a considerable time yet, so there's plenty of opportunity for alternatives to evolve to become affordable, convenient etc. If public transport were to improve as a result of this, I wouldn't object - but it would need to do so radically, and frankly, I cannot see the means which would bring that about in the next 25 years.

When I lived in greater london, all journeys were either walking or public transport because it was good and frequent. I hardly ever used the car for local needs - I even walked to work for much of my life. Step outside the major cities and this becomes impossible and will remain so owing to the lower population density. Therefore, personal transport will of necessity, still be required.

Arb.

[JohnB]

EVs are likely to have a longer lifespan than ICs, there is just less to go wrong and million mile batteries are in development.

All the niggles here are early adopter ones. And watch the Fully Charged Show on YouTube to see how Chinese companies are producing affordable EVs for the masses.

[AF62]

EVs are not priced for the mass market

The biggest selling car in 2022 was the Nissan Qashqai which is priced from £26,405 to £41,430 - all ICE or hybrid.

An MG4 BEV will cost you £25,995.

and are designed for limited lifespan.

And your evidence for that?

[NearlyThere]

An MG4 BEV will cost you £25,995.

I'm picking up a new MG4 EV next week. There have been some reports of problems with early batches, but I'm keen to give EV's a go.

<£30k, 7 year warranty - what could go wrong?

[scotview]

An MG4 BEV will cost you £25,995.

And they have working V2L (vehicle to load) for that price. This has scope for home battery charging and for power cut backup with appropriate earthing/switching.

[didds]

EVs are likely to have a longer lifespan than ICs, there is just less to go wrong and million mile batteries are in development..

(Please don't take this post overly seriously!)

Are EVs expected to last 1,000,000 miles? At 20K miles/year, that's a 50 year lifespan. Or are the batteries designed to be cut and paste? ie when one EV dies, take the battery out and drop it into the "new" EV which can be bought without a battery?

I suspect its as simple to design/develop a 1M mile battery as it is a 200K mile battery, hence the 1M mile thing. But otherwise Id suspect 200K would be more than sufficient generally.



didds

[AF62]

EVs are likely to have a longer lifespan than ICs, there is just less to go wrong and million mile batteries are in development..

(Please don't take this post overly seriously!)

Are EVs expected to last 1,000,000 miles? At 20K miles/year, that's a 50 year lifespan. Or are the batteries designed to be cut and paste? ie when one EV dies, take the battery out and drop it into the "new" EV which can be bought without a battery?

I suspect its as simple to design/develop a 1M mile battery as it is a 200K mile battery, hence the 1M mile thing. But otherwise Id suspect 200K would be more than sufficient generally.

I take such statements to simply mean that the battery will still be going strong when all the other bits in the car have stopped working and which make it uneconomic to repair to get it to pass an MOT, those exact same sorts of bits that are on ICE cars although obviously not the engine, gearbox, clutch, timing belt, etc. that become problematic in older ICE cars.

As for less to go wrong on EVs, the only particular issue I am aware of with EVs is an increased risk of corrosion on the brakes.

On most EVs when you press the brake pedal the car chooses whether to apply the brakes or to use regenerative braking (or a combination of the two) - as a driver you are not aware of the decision (unless you have chosen to show regen on the dashboard) and from a following car you are not aware either as the brake lights still show since the pedal has been pressed.

As a result if you only use the EV for low speed town driving then the brakes are very infrequently used, and in salty environments the brakes can corrode. However EV manufacturers have identified this issue and some now have a 'brake cleaning' mode where you can force the brakes to apply whilst travelling at low speed to clean the brakes off.

[JohnB]

Thete will be an aftermarket for batteries as grid storage buffers, either at home or centrally. Battery recycling for the rare metals is ramping up, but many new battery designs dont use then.

A million mile battery might have 15 years in your car, and 10 more coddled in retirement. This means the scrap value of a EV after accident or uneconomic failure could be a lot more than the steel value of an IC

[Hallucigenia]

Are EVs expected to last 1,000,000 miles? At 20K miles/year, that's a 50 year lifespan. Or are the batteries designed to be cut and paste? ie when one EV dies, take the battery out and drop it into the "new" EV which can be bought without a battery?

It's not about dropping them into a new car, it's about a) improving the lifespan of the most-thrashed batteries b) giving more scope for use in the car when it's not moving (ie supplying juice to your house at peak times, then charging at night) c) more capacity for static storage after the car is scrapped d) allowing high-mileage uses like vans and taxis.

Thing you've got to remember is that as with your phone, batteries tend to die slowly rather than suddenly dying. So you have to look at them as a population where eg 90% of them will get to 140k miles with at least 80% capacity - but there will be the odd one that's maybe a bit of a Friday afternoon one, that gets thrashed, that drops below 80% capacity after 70k miles. Now that's probably not a big deal, in that old cars tend to do much lower mileage, but it's still not good if you're that one person. But if a million-mile battery means that every single car can make it to 140k miles at 85% capacity, then everybody should be happy.

The big potential gain is being able to use car batteries as "topping" supply for the grid on a regular basis, which wears the battery without adding to the miles driven by the car.

But modern batteries are already pretty good, bearing in mind that the average car has its last MOT at something like 100k miles and 15 years. People seem to talk in terms of modern batteries being good for 80% capacity at 120-150k miles which should cover most cars if not the outliers like taxis, and isn't really enough for a lot of vans/trucks.