Electric Car Range Anxiety

[scotia]

I have been reading with interest, on other boards , experience with Electric Cars. Inevitably it brought back my thoughts about range anxiety. I suppose in my case it is magnified by the remote places in Scotland where I visit. I wondered if the Rescue organisations are geared up to help with a flat (drive) battery. I tried a quick search and discovered an RAC News article (April 2019?):-
RAC deliver roadside boost for EV drivers - This looked promising, but then it continued
New EV charging kit to give a ten-mile boost for batteries – The electric equivalent of a fuel top-up to get motorists on their way.
With the current push on electric vehicles in the fleet market and among consumers more generally, the RAC has developed the first EV-charger system to be used at roadside.
The EV charging unit, which is integrated into the new generation of patrol vans, is capable of providing a ten mile power boost to stranded EV drivers, from one of its standard orange roadside rescue vans.
The power boost is the EV equivalent of a fuel top-up in a diesel or petrol vehicle and is designed to give motorists enough power to get on their way - in a matter of minutes.
As the scale of EV ownership continues to grow over coming years, particularly among company car fleets and the delivery sector, RAC is ready to support customers’ needs at the roadside, however their vehicles are powered in the future.
The first six Ford Transit Custom patrol vans equipped with the new EV generators are taking to the roads in London, Birmingham, Manchester and Edinburgh and will be rolled-out to areas of high demand.
Its the last part that really bothers me. "Areas of High Demand". These are areas that should have a relatively high population of charger points, all within the 10 mile range. But up in the remote NW highlands it looks like the RAC will need to arrange a Tow.

[jackdaww]

more anxiety ....

as colder weather approaches ....

where do electric cars get their internal heating from ?

obviously from the battery .

i wonder how much the range is further reduced ??

at least ICB's have lots of surplus heat , one of the reasons they are inefficient ..

[staffordian]

more anxiety ....

as colder weather approaches ....

where do electric cars get their internal heating from ?

obviously from the battery .

i wonder how much the range is further reduced ??

at least ICB's have lots of surplus heat , one of the reasons they are inefficient ..

I assumed that putting a heater on, or using aircon, with an EV would seriously reduce the range, but the effect is far less than I instinctively imagined.

Logical, I suppose, because the amount of power required to keep a one ton or more vehicle moving is significantly more than that required to heat (or cool) the relatively small volume of air within a vehicle.

[Meatyfool]

Gen 2 Nissan leaf replaced a resistance heater with a heat pump. So for every 1kwh of battery used, you got 2kwh of heat.

The only reason I miss an ICE is all that "wasted" heat!

So yes, the range does go down, but TBH far less than being leaden footed.

Further, you are not going to notice the difference with the much larger batteries in more recent cars. My 24Kwh Leaf is noticeable, but as a second car low-mileage commute-only vehicle, I'm not worried.

Meatyfool..

[Dod101]

Its the last part that really bothers me. "Areas of High Demand". These are areas that should have a relatively high population of charger points, all within the 10 mile range. But up in the remote NW highlands it looks like the RAC will need to arrange a Tow.

I have no idea what the cost effectiveness of having a new RAC patrol vehicle in the Highlands stationed say in Inverness would be but frankly it is bad enough if you get low on petrol or diesel; there are not that many refuelling points so I would simply not take an all electric vehicle north of Inverness and probably not north of Perth. I suspect if you get stuck in some remote spot in Sutherland it is quite likely that there would not be a charger within 10 miles anyway.

Dod

[DrFfybes]

more anxiety ....

as colder weather approaches ....
[...]
at least ICB's have lots of surplus heat , one of the reasons they are inefficient ..

Actually modern diesels are so efficient they don't have enough excess heat to warm the cabin in cold climates and a method of burning additional fuel to heat the vehicle is required.!

I was told this by an old friend now working for Ford, who has his name on a patent for such a device.

Paul

[richlist]

Yes I can agree with that. My diesel range rover takes a fair while for the water temp gauge to reach normal. Went out this afternoon, I turned the heater on after 5 miles and it was only just about warm.

[BobbyD]

Its the last part that really bothers me. "Areas of High Demand". These are areas that should have a relatively high population of charger points

...surely the point of the service is to allow you to limp to one of those chargers, which doesn't really work in the Highlands?

..although you might get a few extra miles rolling back down to the lowlands if your regen is any good. Whilst I wouldn't advise deliberately running out of fuel whatever you are driving atleast with an electric if you do get very low in the middle of nowhere all you need to refill, albeit slowly is an amenable local willing to rent out a 240v socket, rather than somebody who happens to have a few litres of four star stashed in their garage.

Given ranges available this really shouldn't be a problem. There might be some low range city cars you probably shouldn't head out blind in to the middle of nowhere with, but a suitable car with a decent charge should be able to get you there and back without a problem. You wouldn't undertake such a drive with a half empty fuel tank, why would you do it with a half charged battery?

[jackdaww]

another thought - for those of us that tow a caravan for holidays --

i do around 3000 miles mostly in scotland from home in wales .

assuming the holiday touring business is allowed to continue by the extinction lobby .

the range will be possibly 50% less towing even a smaller van meaning a recharge approx. every 100 miles .

a possible solution is for caravans to carry an auxiliary high capacity battery - there would be plenty of room for that .

[bungeejumper]

another thought - for those of us that tow a caravan for holidays --

i do around 3000 miles mostly in scotland from home in wales .

assuming the holiday touring business is allowed to continue by the extinction lobby .

Holiday touring is going to be a whole different ball game. Most summers, the wife and I pack our camping gear into the car and head off to southern France for three weeks or so. A 600 mile dash, of which 500 miles is done from Le Havre in about seven hours on the autoroute. Allowing for the ferry, we're set up and cooking supper in the deep south within about 20 hours of leaving home in Wiltshire.

So let's see. That one-day journey south would probably look more like three days by the time we'd found the necessary recharging stations and waited our turn in the ever-lengthening queues along the autoroute in the holiday season. (Four hours waiting time? Six? Eight? Plus the overnight stops? Naaah, it ain't ever going to happen.)

The (relatively) green alternative, presumably, would be to catch a plane to France and book an all-electric hire car on arrival. D'you think they'll let us put the camping gear in the overhead lockers?

The sane solution, I suppose, would be to hire an ICE-equipped car once a year just for holidays, and accept that petrol stations in foreign parts would eventually become as rare as charging stations are now. "Unleaded? No, sorry guv, there's no demand for it these days....")

Something will be gained, and something lost. Maybe it's necessary, but I shall mourn the loss of freedom all the same.

BJ

[jackdaww]

another thought - for those of us that tow a caravan for holidays --

i do around 3000 miles mostly in scotland from home in wales .

assuming the holiday touring business is allowed to continue by the extinction lobby .

Holiday touring is going to be a whole different ball game. Most summers, the wife and I pack our camping gear into the car and head off to southern France for three weeks or so. A 600 mile dash, of which 500 miles is done from Le Havre in about seven hours on the autoroute. Allowing for the ferry, we're set up and cooking supper in the deep south within about 20 hours of leaving home in Wiltshire.

So let's see. That one-day journey south would probably look more like three days by the time we'd found the necessary recharging stations and waited our turn in the ever-lengthening queues along the autoroute in the holiday season. (Four hours waiting time? Six? Eight? Plus the overnight stops? Naaah, it ain't ever going to happen.)



BJ

==========================

another good reason for us to embark on - what may be our last - visit to france.

[nmdhqbc]

So let's see. That one-day journey south would probably look more like three days by the time we'd found the necessary recharging stations and waited our turn in the ever-lengthening queues along the autoroute in the holiday season. (Four hours waiting time? Six? Eight? Plus the overnight stops? Naaah, it ain't ever going to happen.)

Do you honestly think that the technology and infrastructure won't get better with time? This dystopian prediction is pretty short sighted. I'm not experienced with electric ownership but I would not be surprised if your estimate of the charge times etc. is already out of date.

[richlist]

Rapid 50kW chargers can already provide a full charge in 40 minutes or less.

The problem is having a car that will accommodate a 50kW charge........very expensive cars, lots of current EVs are not up to it.

I thought most of us were waiting for the price of the cars to drop, technology to improve and a better infrastructure to be installed.
Not there yet are they ?

[bungeejumper]

Do you honestly think that the technology and infrastructure won't get better with time? This dystopian prediction is pretty short sighted. I'm not experienced with electric ownership but I would not be surprised if your estimate of the charge times etc. is already out of date.

Time? Ah, there you have it. I'm not thinking about 25 years from now, I'm thinking about the next five to ten years. And by the way, I'm not talking about four or eight hours for the charging, I'm talking about how long I'll wait in the queue for a socket.

Technology? Until and unless we can have a 500 mile charge in our batteries - and that'll happen one day, if the world's cobalt and lithium miners can destroy enough of Africa to make it possible - the impact on long-distance travel will be a cause for concern. Not insuperable, I grant you, but a concern all the same.

But infrastructure? Now that's a distant dream. The problem with charging stations is that demand is going to be hugely elastic depending on times of year and other factors. If you build enough stations to cope with a bank holiday monday on the M6, you'll have wasted billions on surplus capacity. If you build enough for a weekday in March, you'll have five mile queues at peak times in August.

In a perfect world, I presume that I'd take my all-electric car to France via the Channel Tunnel and catch a train all the way onward to the south, having used nothing more than good clean electricity. But if that were the only option we'd soon find that we needed another three channel tunnels and rather a lot more high speed trains (and destinations!) on the French side. It's a big place, Europe, and it has mountains and stuff.

I'm not disagreeing that it'll all happen eventually - indeed, it has to. But I'll also bet that nobody is comfortable with the cost. And by then I'll be too ancient to do the driving anyway, never mind the camping.

BJ

[JohnB]

I'm less concerned with charging on route (after all cars will have 300 mile ranges at reasonable prices soon, and I'll always set off fully charged) with the bargaining at my destination, where the hotel or B&B or on-street parking could all be unpredictable in a strange town. Or you go to a friend's house party and have to negotiate with the other guests who gets the driveway and charging cable.

[nmdhqbc]

Do you honestly think that the technology and infrastructure won't get better with time? This dystopian prediction is pretty short sighted. I'm not experienced with electric ownership but I would not be surprised if your estimate of the charge times etc. is already out of date.

Time? Ah, there you have it. I'm not thinking about 25 years from now, I'm thinking about the next five to ten years. And by the way, I'm not talking about four or eight hours for the charging, I'm talking about how long I'll wait in the queue for a socket.

Technology? Until and unless we can have a 500 mile charge in our batteries - and that'll happen one day, if the world's cobalt and lithium miners can destroy enough of Africa to make it possible - the impact on long-distance travel will be a cause for concern. Not insuperable, I grant you, but a concern all the same.

But infrastructure? Now that's a distant dream. The problem with charging stations is that demand is going to be hugely elastic depending on times of year and other factors. If you build enough stations to cope with a bank holiday monday on the M6, you'll have wasted billions on surplus capacity. If you build enough for a weekday in March, you'll have five mile queues at peak times in August.

In a perfect world, I presume that I'd take my all-electric car to France via the Channel Tunnel and catch a train all the way onward to the south, having used nothing more than good clean electricity. But if that were the only option we'd soon find that we needed another three channel tunnels and rather a lot more high speed trains (and destinations!) on the French side. It's a big place, Europe, and it has mountains and stuff.

I'm not disagreeing that it'll all happen eventually - indeed, it has to. But I'll also bet that nobody is comfortable with the cost. And by then I'll be too ancient to do the driving anyway, never mind the camping.

BJ

Some are already above 300 miles range so not sure why 500 won't be possible in 5-10 years. Things are moving forward. Your negativity will hopefully be proved unfounded in the fullness of time. I would hope you'd at least be rooting for it to progress quickly but somehow I get the feeling that you're actually rooting against it. Which would be weird unless you are a climate change denier. Are you?

[jackdaww]

maybe a compromise answer - to have a small efficient petrol or LPG engine that simply charges the battery on long runs .

[bungeejumper]

Some are already above 300 miles range so not sure why 500 won't be possible in 5-10 years. Things are moving forward. Your negativity will hopefully be proved unfounded in the fullness of time. I would hope you'd at least be rooting for it to progress quickly but somehow I get the feeling that you're actually rooting against it. Which would be weird unless you are a climate change denier. Are you?

My goodness, that's a lot of straw man arguments that you're cramming into one post. No, I bloody well am not a climate change denier, and nor do I bloody well doubt that electric is the way to go.

And nor do I doubt that car batteries will improve so that a 500 mile range becomes a reality. I get the feeling that your reading skills are not very well up to scratch, or you might have noticed that fact. Although if you haven't heard the worries about what cobalt and cadmium mining is doing to Africa, maybe this would be a good time to take a look at a very serious matter that needs to be properly addressed if the global production of batteries is not to run out of steam.

Another angry greenie with a bucket on his head. Not very nice being called these names, is it?

BJ

[nmdhqbc]

Some are already above 300 miles range so not sure why 500 won't be possible in 5-10 years. Things are moving forward. Your negativity will hopefully be proved unfounded in the fullness of time. I would hope you'd at least be rooting for it to progress quickly but somehow I get the feeling that you're actually rooting against it. Which would be weird unless you are a climate change denier. Are you?

My goodness, that's a lot of straw man arguments that you're cramming into one post. No, I bloody well am not a climate change denier, and nor do I bloody well doubt that electric is the way to go.

And nor do I doubt that car batteries will improve so that a 500 mile range becomes a reality. I get the feeling that your reading skills are not very well up to scratch, or you might have noticed that fact. Although if you haven't heard the worries about what cobalt and cadmium mining is doing to Africa, maybe this would be a good time to take a look at a very serious matter that needs to be properly addressed if the global production of batteries is not to run out of steam.

Another angry greenie with a bucket on his head. Not very nice being called these names, is it?

BJ

I have faith that these problems will be overcome. Normally people who are so negative about it have some sort of irrational feelings against the change but it seems you're just negative. Progress is being made and I hope it will continue. Glad to see you also hope it will.

[bungeejumper]

I have faith that these problems will be overcome. Normally people who are so negative about it have some sort of irrational feelings against the change but it seems you're just negative. Progress is being made and I hope it will continue. Glad to see you also hope it will.

Yeah, cool. Thanks for the response, much appreciated. Peace.

BJ