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Idle musings on car safety.

Passion, instruction, buying, care, maintenance and more, any form of vehicle discussion is welcome here
Lootman
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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274328

Postby Lootman » December 31st, 2019, 11:54 pm

Dod101 wrote:it is the lane hogger that is wrong not the undertaker. I do not though want a careless driving conviction, although I would not see it as careless driving. In fact any undertaker is likely to be a very careful driver, alert to the possibility of the lane hogger suddenly changing his mind.

Yes, the rule about undertaking is arbitrary and seemingly not founded on a safety issue at all. I feel the same way with the law against jaywalking in the US, because in the UK there is no such prohibition. If some countries have a law and others do not, then the chances are that it is not an important law.

The one safety concern that can happen with undertaking is if you move to the left lane to undertake someone in lane two, whilst someone is overtaking that same vehicle in the fast lane. Then both passing vehicles try to re-converge into the middle lane at the same time. I've seen that nearly happen, but it should not if both drivers maintain awareness. Americans manage it all the time.

Dod101 wrote:As for the speed limit, I have always thought that if the limit is 70 mph it should mean that. Why on earth they allow another 10% plus 2 mph I have no idea. Take away the plus 10% and leave it as plus 2 mph would make sense to me to allow for slight variations in readings.

I believe the reason is pragmatic. Car speedometers may only be accurate to within 10% or so. And even the police measuring kit has a margin of error. So in practice to get a ticket in a 70 zone means you are doing 80 or more, which translates into a de facto 80 limit.

bungeejumper
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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274348

Postby bungeejumper » January 1st, 2020, 8:23 am

Lootman wrote:
Dod101 wrote:As for the speed limit, I have always thought that if the limit is 70 mph it should mean that. Why on earth they allow another 10% plus 2 mph I have no idea. Take away the plus 10% and leave it as plus 2 mph would make sense to me to allow for slight variations in readings.

I believe the reason is pragmatic. Car speedometers may only be accurate to within 10% or so. And even the police measuring kit has a margin of error. So in practice to get a ticket in a 70 zone means you are doing 80 or more, which translates into a de facto 80 limit.

I sometimes wonder what continental drivers must think of our deliberately woolly speed limit system? In la belle France, the general motorway limit is 130 kph, and you'll risk getting fined if you do 131. (Spot-fined, too, and you can be arrested for even a slight excess.) That would seem to suggest that the idea of a "cushion" (for want of a better word) is no longer strictly needed?

Which doesn't surprise me in the least. The technology in all countries is perfectly well up to the job of precise speed measurement, and the only thing left to debate is whether or not the legal system allows us to be a bit dithery about our own responsibility to keep to the law. You are, of course, right to say that speedos aren't always accurate, although in most cases they overstate rather than understate our true speed. But suurely it's our problem, not the law's, to see that we either (a) stick to the limits or (b) accept our fate gracefully if we don't?

Compare, for example, with the drink-driving limits, where we also don't have an accurate gauge for measuring our blood alcohol. If the limit's 80 mg, we should probably not be outraged if we're arrested at 81mg, and perhaps arrested while the plods run their secondary tests. (At which point they may or may not build in a "cushion" of their own to avoid time-wasting on borderline cases, but you get my point?)

I'm not a super-obedient driver when it comes to speed limits - I quite often make use of the 10% plus two margin (unlike my wife, who regularly gets tailgated on urban A roads for doing exactly 30 mph (etc) on her speedo reading. ;) ) If you press me on my reasons, I'll probably try and bluster that if the system allows me the 10% plus two cushion, then that gives me a bit of sensible leeway when the car in front is doing 3 mph less than the limit and I want to pass him decisively and efficiently at 3 mph above, so as not to hang around too long in the overtaking lane. But deep down, I know that it's a kind of institutionalised hypocrisy to say 70 mph when you mean 77 mph is OK.

BJ

tjh290633
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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274369

Postby tjh290633 » January 1st, 2020, 9:46 am

I find that you often find a totally empty nearside lane, while the middle lane is occupied by cars at less than the speed limit. If you travel at a similar speed just behind them in the nearside lane, they often slow down, possibly because of the traffic in the centre lane ahead of them.

You maintain your speed in the empty nearside lane and all that traffic drops behind. This is not undertaking.

TJH

Howard
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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274380

Postby Howard » January 1st, 2020, 10:22 am

As a "fast" driver I normally travel at a smidgeon over the the speed limit and find motorway and dual carriageway driving much more relaxing now that speed cameras are ubiquitous. Years ago there was almost always a tailgating driver who wanted to drive at 80 +. Now, in my experience, it is rare to find someone prepared to hassle the cars in front and travel at a speed substantially above the speed limit. All the cars in the fast, or middle lane tend to be doing approximately the same speed.

I find it relaxing because almost all the motoring hazards are in front. I have tried driving below the speed limit but, in my experience, it is more stressful because hazards appear from in front, from the side and from the rear.

This, fast lane, style of motoring has worked for me and in fifty plus years of motoring, including 20k miles a year on business when I was working, I have never had to have my brake pads changed and am very light on tyres. Touch wood, no speeding tickets either. However I did take the precaution of buying a camera detector years ago when I bought a Porsche 911 - this may have helped!

regards

Howard

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274395

Postby redsturgeon » January 1st, 2020, 11:23 am

This was already mentioned by jfgw but this is a summary of the article he linked to.

Be very careful about undertaking these days, I do it myself but today I read an article that annoyingly I can't locate now, it warned of the dangers of getting an on the spot ticket under new regulations.

He was stopped after undertaking a middle lane hogger on the A3 (was it you Lootman?). He received points and a fine but more importantly a CD10 code on his license.

This has had various impacts:

1. His insurance increased by 50%

2. He can no longer hire cars from certain companies.

3. As a motoring journalist he is prevented from test driving any Porsches for the next five years

4. He was declined free seven day insurance to cover a new car he had bought.

A big price to pay.

John

Dod101
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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274399

Postby Dod101 » January 1st, 2020, 11:39 am

redsturgeon wrote:Be very careful about undertaking these days, I do it myself but today I read an article that annoyingly I can't locate now, it warned of the dangers of getting an on the spot ticket under new regulations.

He was stopped after undertaking a middle lane hogger on the A3 (was it you Lootman?). He received points and a fine but more importantly a CD10 code on his license.

This has had various impacts:

1. His insurance increased by 50%

2. He can no longer hire cars from certain companies.

3. As a motoring journalist he is prevented from test driving any Porsches for the next five years

4. He was declined free seven day insurance to cover a new car he had bought.

A big price to pay.

John


Has Julian F. G. W. beaten you to it? (See above) I do though take the point and most certainly do not want that even although as I said earlier in the thread, it seems to me that police should be going for the lane hogger not the undertaker.

Dod

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274401

Postby redsturgeon » January 1st, 2020, 11:45 am

As I have mentioned, I have in the past resorted to an undertake where I have felt it safe to do so and where the car I am trying to pass is clearly not going to move over (why not I am at a loss to understand) and I have no other way of passing.

However sometimes when the boot is on the other foot I am a little confused by some drivers performing a manoeuvre that seems to have become more common in recent years.

I am driving on a three lane motorway where the left hand lane is fairly busy but contains gaps of a few hundred yards in places, I am travelling around 70mph and there is little traffic in either the middle lane or fast lane. In such a situation, I may find myself in the middle lane and with the option of passing a car and returning to the inside lane for a minute or so or continuing in the middle lane, I continue in the middle lane.

I see a car coming up behind me in the middle lane, the outside lane is clear, he could easily use it but decides to move to the left to undertake me before moving out in front of me again. Why? Indeed in some instances of this I have seen the car coming up fast behind me and started to move left, only to find the car behind has also done that causing a potentially dangerous situation.

In the same situation wouldn't everyone here just pass on the right and carry on?

John

bungeejumper
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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274408

Postby bungeejumper » January 1st, 2020, 12:07 pm

redsturgeon wrote:I see a car coming up behind me in the middle lane, the outside lane is clear, he could easily use it but decides to move to the left to undertake me before moving out in front of me again. Why? Indeed in some instances of this I have seen the car coming up fast behind me and started to move left, only to find the car behind has also done that causing a potentially dangerous situation.

Foreign driver in a hire car, perhaps?

I once saw a whole convoy of battered Polish transit vans doing that all the way up from Dover to Heathrow, through quite heavy traffic. Terrifying. :shock: And, as you'll have already figured out, the fact that I was able to observe and report the whole 100 mile run tells you that their "Italian Job" stunt team driving didn't actually get them to their destination any faster than me or anybody else.

In that particular case, I suspect that only one of them knew the way, and that all the others were following his every illegal manoeuvre because otherwise they might have lost him. Goodbye guys, anyway, and good riddance.

BJ

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274422

Postby DrFfybes » January 1st, 2020, 1:09 pm

bungeejumper wrote:
sg31 wrote:And another thing. Why is it that every car I've owned recently has a different set of button/stalk operations for cruise control?

BJ


You think that's bad - the Toyota has the indicator on the left and wipers on the right. Squirting my windscreen isn't too effective to warn a drifting cyclist or pedestrian that I am approaching.

Re Cruise - we have it on one car and as long trips are usually done at night it does get used. Also living in Devon theM5 can be quiet enough, sometimes.

Paul

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274430

Postby JohnB » January 1st, 2020, 1:57 pm

perhaps the next gadget we should have is the on-board radar monitoring traffic and illuminating a "Dickhead" sign on the dashboard when tailegating, hogging, undertaking etc. Even better if a pole rises from the car roof.

speed limiters tied to road signage are coming down the track fast. we shall see if they have the 10%+2 leeway we all expect. (As speedos are designed to always read low, it will have less effect than you first think, but will still be damn annoying)

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274432

Postby bungeejumper » January 1st, 2020, 2:00 pm

JohnB wrote:(As speedos are designed to always read low, it will have less effect than you first think, but will still be damn annoying)

I think you mean high? AIUI, they're not allowed to read low.

BJ

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274435

Postby Howard » January 1st, 2020, 2:20 pm

DrFfybes wrote:
bungeejumper wrote:
sg31 wrote:And another thing. Why is it that every car I've owned recently has a different set of button/stalk operations for cruise control?

BJ


You think that's bad - the Toyota has the indicator on the left and wipers on the right. Squirting my windscreen isn't too effective to warn a drifting cyclist or pedestrian that I am approaching.

Re Cruise - we have it on one car and as long trips are usually done at night it does get used. Also living in Devon theM5 can be quiet enough, sometimes.

Paul


All my cars over the last 30 years or so have had this configuration - indicator on the left stalk. I do remember a 1950 Ford Anglia with a wiper control which wasn't on the right but the wipers were driven by vacuum from the inlet manifold :) .

Are you driving a vintage car?

regards

Howard

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274436

Postby ReformedCharacter » January 1st, 2020, 2:22 pm

bungeejumper wrote:I think you mean high? AIUI, they're not allowed to read low.

BJ

The intentionally designed high reading is known as 'flatter', apparently.

RC

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274438

Postby marronier » January 1st, 2020, 2:32 pm

Middle lane hoggers exist because most magistrates are pro-car and won't convict them for " careless driving or driving without due consideration for other road users ", so the police don't waste resources by bringing them to court. The legislation has been on the Statute Book for decades.

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274443

Postby bungeejumper » January 1st, 2020, 2:46 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:
bungeejumper wrote:I think you mean high? AIUI, they're not allowed to read low.

The intentionally designed high reading is known as 'flatter', apparently.

I have a distant memory that when VW first produced the Golf GTI, back in the seventies, the cars were supplied with ludicrously "flattering" speedos to make them seem much faster than they actually were. There was much gnashing and grinding of teeth when the truth became generally known.

Nowadays, of course, it's the nitrous oxide figure that VW prefers to flatter. :lol: But even today, a speedo can legally read as much as 10% more than your actual speed, plus 6.25mph. (But never less, give or take a bit for tyre circumference etc, I suppose.)

So if you're doing 40 mph, your speedo might be reading anything between 40 and 50.25 mph. Sheesh. :evil:

BJ

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274451

Postby richlist » January 1st, 2020, 3:09 pm

Thats interesting.
When I set off on a journey and I input the details into my sat nav it tells me e.g. that it's 153 miles to my destination.
When I arrive at the destination I might have covered 151 miles on my trip counter......that's not showing as much variance as you suggest.

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274457

Postby ReformedCharacter » January 1st, 2020, 3:31 pm

richlist wrote:Thats interesting.
When I set off on a journey and I input the details into my sat nav it tells me e.g. that it's 153 miles to my destination.
When I arrive at the destination I might have covered 151 miles on my trip counter......that's not showing as much variance as you suggest.

Yes, but speed and mileage are not necessarily interdependent measurements on a motor vehicle, ie. a flattering speedometer does not necessarily lead to a flattering odometer.

RC

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274460

Postby Breelander » January 1st, 2020, 3:39 pm

bungeejumper wrote:...even today, a speedo can legally read as much as 10% more than your actual speed, plus 6.25mph. (But never less, give or take a bit for tyre circumference etc, I suppose.)


I have two cars, separated in age by about 50 years, a Mk1 Mini and a modern VW Polo. Thanks to the helpful locals who periodically put up those 'slow down, you're going too fast' speed traps I've been able to compare them. At a marked 30mph on the spedo they both read as an actual 27mph.

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274466

Postby tjh290633 » January 1st, 2020, 4:48 pm

When you use Google Maps as a satnav, you get a read-out of your speed, which allows you to compare indicated and actual. I find that 53mph on the speedometer gives me a GPS speed of 50mph when I have the speed limiter set for the M23 roadworks. It appears that a true 70mph is about 76mph indicated.

TJH

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Re: Idle musings on car safety.

#274469

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » January 1st, 2020, 5:01 pm

tjh290633 wrote:When you use Google Maps as a satnav, you get a read-out of your speed, which allows you to compare indicated and actual. I find that 53mph on the speedometer gives me a GPS speed of 50mph when I have the speed limiter set for the M23 roadworks. It appears that a true 70mph is about 76mph indicated.

TJH

The slower the speed the closer the gap between speedometer & Sat-nav. I think I can set my cruise to 32mph to give me 30 on the sat-nav (which I view as the "true speed")

AiYn'U


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