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20 MPH zones

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swill453
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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275688

Postby swill453 » January 7th, 2020, 10:29 am

Might be the time to buy share in signage companies. In a city with mixed 20mph and 30mph streets, the 20mph streets need repeater signs at least every 200m on both sides...

Scott.

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275691

Postby tjh290633 » January 7th, 2020, 10:39 am

yorkshirelad1 wrote:
PrincessB wrote:The signs used to be popular around schools and the idea seem to be spreading fast.

I've been through a few of them in the last few days and I didn't any real reason why you're supposed to drive so slowly down fairly urban roads.

Is the 20 limit enforceable? Would a speed camera in a 20MPH zone trigger if you went through at 30 or are the signs just some kind of guideline?

There's one on the road from Kempton Park to Hampton Court Palace. Admittedly, most of the time you'd be lucky to go faster than walking pace but on the rare occasion when traffic is flowing, I can see no reason to reduce speed so dramatically. That section of road has GATSO speed cameras midway through the restriction.

B.


I do understand 20mph signs outside schools. But not all the time: there's no point having a permanent 20mph sign outside a school during e.g. summer holidays. Most drivers tend to abide by signs when there's a sensible reason for them, but non-sensical signs seem to get less attention.

The school 20 limits around here only apply when the crossing patrol is there and the lights on the signs are flashing. The lollipop person switches the lights on or off, as required.

Why can't they do that everywhere?

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275693

Postby tjh290633 » January 7th, 2020, 10:42 am

swill453 wrote:Might be the time to buy share in signage companies. In a city with mixed 20mph and 30mph streets, the 20mph streets need repeater signs at least every 200m on both sides...

Scott.

Do they? More often painted on the road surface, if that. There are no repeaters in our high street.

TJH

swill453
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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275697

Postby swill453 » January 7th, 2020, 10:54 am

tjh290633 wrote:
swill453 wrote:Might be the time to buy share in signage companies. In a city with mixed 20mph and 30mph streets, the 20mph streets need repeater signs at least every 200m on both sides...

Do they? More often painted on the road surface, if that. There are no repeaters in our high street.

If it's an actual 20mph zone, they don't need repeaters. But the likes of Edinburgh has 30mph on the main arteries and 20mph on all other streets and there are repeaters everywhere.

Scott.

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275700

Postby DrFfybes » January 7th, 2020, 11:07 am

swill453 wrote:Might be the time to buy share in signage companies. In a city with mixed 20mph and 30mph streets, the 20mph streets need repeater signs at least every 200m on both sides...

Scott.


Depends if it is a 20 limit or a 20 Zone :)

[EDIT] - beaten to it - Zones are supposed to be self enforcing with street 'features', usually buildouts, humps, etc but may even include parked cars!

Paul

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275704

Postby tjh290633 » January 7th, 2020, 11:11 am

swill453 wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:
swill453 wrote:Might be the time to buy share in signage companies. In a city with mixed 20mph and 30mph streets, the 20mph streets need repeater signs at least every 200m on both sides...

Do they? More often painted on the road surface, if that. There are no repeaters in our high street.

If it's an actual 20mph zone, they don't need repeaters. But the likes of Edinburgh has 30mph on the main arteries and 20mph on all other streets and there are repeaters everywhere.

Scott.

In common with other villages, we have a 20 sign at the start at each end and cancelling signs or 30 signs at the end. No side roads that are not dead ends, in our case. I haven't been to Fulking for some years, but I expect that the lane off their street has either a 30 or a deristriction sign after the junction.

Brighton is similar to Edinburgh, but I must pay attention, the next time that I have to drive through. I'm fairly certain that they have just painted signs on the road surface.

TJH

swill453
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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275709

Postby swill453 » January 7th, 2020, 11:19 am

tjh290633 wrote:Brighton is similar to Edinburgh, but I must pay attention, the next time that I have to drive through. I'm fairly certain that they have just painted signs on the road surface.

As far as I know the painted signs on the road surface are just a guide and have no particular legal effect.

Scott.

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275713

Postby bungeejumper » January 7th, 2020, 11:22 am

yorkshirelad1 wrote:I do understand 20mph signs outside schools. But not all the time: there's no point having a permanent 20mph sign outside a school during e.g. summer holidays. Most drivers tend to abide by signs when there's a sensible reason for them, but non-sensical signs seem to get less attention.

Hmmm, I wonder if it's that straightforward? Around our way, the old school signs have been discarded in favour of year-round 20 mph signs, and I can see why. When I'm approaching a school, am I going to check the calendar to see whether it's currently term time or not? Never mind whether it's the school run rush hour? :lol: ) On balance, I think, we'd all do better if we kept it simple.

There's also the fact that schools are morphing into 52-week 10-hours-a-day institutions, what with extra-curricular functions, community functions, health services, creches and all the rest of it going on. Even 55 years ago, we'd have been playing football or using the school swimming pool during holiday periods. Unsupervised, too! :shock:

And blah blah blah. A few hundred yards of 20 mph limit around a school or a hospital an old folks' home has achieved its value if it does nothing more than remind us that not everyone is as wise or as mobile as we are. Well okay, it'll do for starters!

BJ

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275737

Postby didds » January 7th, 2020, 12:25 pm

swill453 wrote:We're moving towards having 20mph limits almost everywhere in towns. Is that nonsensical?

Scott.


had instead of 30 mph been settled on XXX years ago that limit had been set at 20mph, would anybody doubt it today? ie it is the status quo.

potentially the resistance is not so much it being 20 v 30, but the change of the norm. And I concur the "problem" is amongst the signage overload its is quite difficult at times to spot 30 has changed to 20 etc.

20mph through built up areas I have no issue with. In many places at least in core hours I doubt traffic everv exceeds it anyway.

Less obvious are open stretches of road that rarely seem to have coingestion, have no schools, hospitals etc in the vicinity that are set to 20. Or even 30. Or even 50.

didds

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275792

Postby airbus330 » January 7th, 2020, 4:24 pm

Beware of what you wish for:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/1 ... il-admits/

Urban blanket 20mph limits are encouraging pedestrians to walk across roads with inadequate attention (possibly aided and abetted with the permanent nose in the smartphone), several reports supporting this. According to RoSPA 81% of drivers exceed the 20mph limit in town, either inadvertently or deliberately. So you have a perfect combination for more people being run over. Make sensible speed limits and enforce them. But that might cost a bit of cash! Make daft speed limits which are neither obeyed or enforced and it is just means an increase in the amount of people who treat the law with contempt. Which, by the way, is pretty much what everyone does anyway.

20mph by schools et al. Strictly enforced.
20mph in residential side streets with parking.
30mph all other urban single carriageways/dual carriageway without crash barrier.
50mph urban dual carriageways with crash barrier.
60mph All non urban roads
80mph All M/Way Dual carriageway with Barriers.
Put police back on the motorway network actually patrolling.

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275796

Postby swill453 » January 7th, 2020, 4:43 pm

airbus330 wrote:Beware of what you wish for:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/1 ... il-admits/

Urban blanket 20mph limits are encouraging pedestrians to walk across roads with inadequate attention (possibly aided and abetted with the permanent nose in the smartphone), several reports supporting this. According to RoSPA 81% of drivers exceed the 20mph limit in town, either inadvertently or deliberately. So you have a perfect combination for more people being run over.

Well you may say that, but are more people being run over? I suspect you won't be able to find evidence to back up your assertion.

Scott.

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275797

Postby jackdaww » January 7th, 2020, 4:45 pm

airbus330 wrote:Beware of what you wish for:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/1 ... il-admits/

Urban blanket 20mph limits are encouraging pedestrians to walk across roads with inadequate attention (possibly aided and abetted with the permanent nose in the smartphone), several reports supporting this. According to RoSPA 81% of drivers exceed the 20mph limit in town, either inadvertently or deliberately. So you have a perfect combination for more people being run over. Make sensible speed limits and enforce them. But that might cost a bit of cash! Make daft speed limits which are neither obeyed or enforced and it is just means an increase in the amount of people who treat the law with contempt. Which, by the way, is pretty much what everyone does anyway.

20mph by schools et al. Strictly enforced.
20mph in residential side streets with parking.
30mph all other urban single carriageways/dual carriageway without crash barrier.
50mph urban dual carriageways with crash barrier.
60mph All non urban roads
80mph All M/Way Dual carriageway with Barriers.
Put police back on the motorway network actually patrolling.


==============================

mostly good.

i live on a rural crossroads , its quite legal to do 60 on the through road , and many do .

several crashes every year here, its quite stressful going out to survey the wreckage .

so i have suggested a blanket 45 limit for roads not fitting the above scenes.

:shock:

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275812

Postby jfgw » January 7th, 2020, 5:21 pm

jackdaww wrote:so i have suggested a blanket 45 limit for roads not fitting the above scenes.


I suggest that an individual assessment of higher risk areas would be a better solution.


Julian F. G. W.

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275820

Postby sg31 » January 7th, 2020, 6:06 pm

I live in what can best be described as a rural hamlet. As a parish councillor I had a meeting with the Highways people about the rural road that runs through the hamet. It's dead end that runs for about 2 miles from end to end the first half mile is unrestricted. Then there is a section through the hamlet of half a mile which is 30mph and then the rest, which is very narrow with high hedges and lots of bends, is unrestricted.

Despite it being a dead end there are caravan sites up and down the road so it is used by locals and visitors who don't know the area.

The highways people were shocked at the speed of vehicles travelling on the unrestricted sections, drivers often drive at 60MPH although most do drop their speed on the 30mph section although many still drive over the limit. We suggested that applying a speed limiit over the whole of the road would be a good idea, say 40 over the first section which is relatively straight and wide then 30 through the hamlet and 30 through the narrow twisty section.

Their attitude was that unrestricted leaves the driver to decide what speed is safe, if they imposed a speed limit that would be telling drivers that it was perfectly safe to drive at that limit. for instance the narrow twisty section should really have a limit of 10mph but that is considered unacceptable. The straight faster section may be ok at 40mph in some situations and not in others.

I was so shocked by this viewpoint that I checked exactly what they meant in case I'd misunderstood but their stance remained the same. Odd, very odd. I always considered drivers were responsible for driving at a safe speed and that the speed limit was just that, a limit not a target. Our county highways department staff think otherwise.

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275822

Postby swill453 » January 7th, 2020, 6:11 pm

sg31 wrote:I was so shocked by this viewpoint that I checked exactly what they meant in case I'd misunderstood but their stance remained the same. Odd, very odd. I always considered drivers were responsible for driving at a safe speed and that the speed limit was just that, a limit not a target. Our county highways department staff think otherwise.

Well I don't know the thought process going on in your highways department, but very few country roads are restricted to less than 60mph in my experience.

Single track, blind bends etc, are all left up to the driver to judge a safe speed.

Scott.

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275826

Postby tjh290633 » January 7th, 2020, 6:47 pm

swill453 wrote:
sg31 wrote:I was so shocked by this viewpoint that I checked exactly what they meant in case I'd misunderstood but their stance remained the same. Odd, very odd. I always considered drivers were responsible for driving at a safe speed and that the speed limit was just that, a limit not a target. Our county highways department staff think otherwise.

Well I don't know the thought process going on in your highways department, but very few country roads are restricted to less than 60mph in my experience.

Single track, blind bends etc, are all left up to the driver to judge a safe speed.

Scott.

The trouble is that roads vary so much. 60 may be fine on a road without hedges or fences across open moorland, but if animals graze and wander, 40 as set in the New Forest or Ashdown Forest may be too fast at times. Likewise, many a narrow twisting single track road with high hedges can be unsafe at speeds as low as 15 when approaching a blind bend.

TJH

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275831

Postby XFool » January 7th, 2020, 7:12 pm

jfgw wrote:
jackdaww wrote:so i have suggested a blanket 45 limit for roads not fitting the above scenes.

I suggest that an individual assessment of higher risk areas would be a better solution.


Julian F. G. W.

One can't help wondering if possibly it is "individual assessment of higher risk areas" that may be the problem.

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275834

Postby Lootman » January 7th, 2020, 7:29 pm

tjh290633 wrote:The trouble is that roads vary so much. 60 may be fine on a road without hedges or fences across open moorland, but if animals graze and wander, 40 as set in the New Forest or Ashdown Forest may be too fast at times. Likewise, many a narrow twisting single track road with high hedges can be unsafe at speeds as low as 15 when approaching a blind bend.

Indeed. The one accident I have had in 45 years of driving was on a narrow winding lane in Devon, where the high dry-stone walls impeded visibility. I could not have been going more than 20 when another vehicle appeared in the bend. Since there was no room to pass it was just a matter of both cars braking. And we didn't quite make it. No major damage and no injuries. My one year old son (at the time) slept through the whole thing in his secured car seat. But unfortunately my radiator was pierced which means a long tow home by the AA to London. And a written-off car, which annoyed me as it had a personalised number plate which I thereby lost.

The speed limit there was probably 50 or 60.

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275915

Postby airbus330 » January 8th, 2020, 10:25 am

swill453 wrote:
sg31 wrote:I was so shocked by this viewpoint that I checked exactly what they meant in case I'd misunderstood but their stance remained the same. Odd, very odd. I always considered drivers were responsible for driving at a safe speed and that the speed limit was just that, a limit not a target. Our county highways department staff think otherwise.

Well I don't know the thought process going on in your highways department, but very few country roads are restricted to less than 60mph in my experience.

Single track, blind bends etc, are all left up to the driver to judge a safe speed.

Scott.


You have put your finger on the problem that local authority tinkering leads to. I live in West Wales and often travel up and down Wales through several counties using mainly A roads. It is a hotch potch of different rules implemented poorly. So, a certain motor hating county restricts most of its arterial roads to 50, but the smaller roads are 60! They have resorted to putting in speed humps on 50mph roads which are unlit and virtually unmarked. Go further north and you are back to 60 with little policing, then further north still into the land of the random speed traps. It is unreasonable to have so many varying restrictions when for years it was so simple and relied mainly on drivers driving at a speed that was suitable for the conditions, or as we used say common sense! This whole can of worms has got onto the news recently with the disaster of variable speed limits on motorways, where there is now increasing evidence that they are making the motorways more dangerous because there is confusion in the drivers minds and no immediate refuge for the broken down car. Who'd have thought?

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Re: 20 MPH zones

#275919

Postby Watis » January 8th, 2020, 10:38 am

airbus330 wrote:
swill453 wrote:
sg31 wrote:I was so shocked by this viewpoint that I checked exactly what they meant in case I'd misunderstood but their stance remained the same. Odd, very odd. I always considered drivers were responsible for driving at a safe speed and that the speed limit was just that, a limit not a target. Our county highways department staff think otherwise.

Well I don't know the thought process going on in your highways department, but very few country roads are restricted to less than 60mph in my experience.

Single track, blind bends etc, are all left up to the driver to judge a safe speed.

Scott.


You have put your finger on the problem that local authority tinkering leads to. I live in West Wales and often travel up and down Wales through several counties using mainly A roads. It is a hotch potch of different rules implemented poorly. So, a certain motor hating county restricts most of its arterial roads to 50, but the smaller roads are 60! They have resorted to putting in speed humps on 50mph roads which are unlit and virtually unmarked. Go further north and you are back to 60 with little policing, then further north still into the land of the random speed traps. It is unreasonable to have so many varying restrictions when for years it was so simple and relied mainly on drivers driving at a speed that was suitable for the conditions, or as we used say common sense! This whole can of worms has got onto the news recently with the disaster of variable speed limits on motorways, where there is now increasing evidence that they are making the motorways more dangerous because there is confusion in the drivers minds and no immediate refuge for the broken down car. Who'd have thought?


I'm familiar with the issue of reduced speed limits on the more major roads where I live. This has an adverse effect on route planning using a satnav as, to the satnav, all these narrow wriggly roads look like fast roads so they are chosen when selecting 'fastest route' (like anyone would ever choose 'slowest route'!).

In one's own locality, you know to take the best route and ignore the bleats to 'turn around when possible'. But when away from home you'll tend to follow the satnav even when you have a sneaking suspicion that there might be a better route!

Watis


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