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Scotsman running out of steam

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Howard
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Scotsman running out of steam

#284550

Postby Howard » February 15th, 2020, 4:37 pm

The Flying Scotsman express was billed to run along my local Hampshire railway track yesterday so I couldn’t resist going to have a look at this “monster” roaring along the line.

Waiting expectantly out in the country at an ideal viewing spot next to the Ropley incline with my fellow anorak-clad trainspotters the excitement built as we heard the distant whistle.

The first indication that we might be surprised was the steam slowly rising above the distant trees. Then the beast trundled into view at around 20 mph with its modest six coach train. What surprised us all (except perhaps for the true cognoscenti) was that the puffing and wheezing monster had to be helped along by a second locomotive pushing from behind the final coach.

What a let down. :(

Frankly a couple of Northern Rail Pacers could have crammed in the passengers and would have been more impressive zipping up the modest incline at speed. ;)

My Hornby Dublo background qualifies me to suggest that Mallard should have been renovated instead. Surely it could have roared along at 50 mph?

A rather disappointed.

Howard

JohnB
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Re: Scotsman running out of steam

#284551

Postby JohnB » February 15th, 2020, 4:44 pm

Here is 2017 footage of it doing 75mph unaided. You was unlucky. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI9UKPtYw4M

AleisterCrowley
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Re: Scotsman running out of steam

#284564

Postby AleisterCrowley » February 15th, 2020, 5:17 pm

My local heritage railway (the SVR) has a speed limit along the whole track IIRC- 20mph?
Not sure if it's to protect the track, or because the coaches are slam door jobbies

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Re: Scotsman running out of steam

#284600

Postby tjh290633 » February 15th, 2020, 8:24 pm

I believe that all heritage lines are subject to a 20 mph speed limit. The locomotive at the other end is usually a precaution against failure of the elderly steam locomotive. I suspect that it was a diesel. With no facility to turn the Flying Scotsman at the end of the line, it is probably used to haul the return trip. It is possible that they have a turntable, but not large enough to handle a 4-6-2.

TJH

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Re: Scotsman running out of steam

#284601

Postby JohnB » February 15th, 2020, 8:32 pm

It used to be that heritage locos needed a diesel with them to provide air-breaking and electrical power to the carriages, but in the footage I posted there wasn't one, so perhaps with her refit the Flying Scotsman gained the ability.

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Re: Scotsman running out of steam

#284609

Postby tjh290633 » February 15th, 2020, 8:59 pm

Heritage rolling stock is mostly vacuum braked and each vehicle has its own battery and axle driven generator. Some were air braked, depending on the policy of the company operating them. Their locomotives would have Westinghouse Brake compressors. Most would have vacuum exhausters to work the braking system. The Great Eastern was one line that used air brakes.

TJH

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Re: Scotsman running out of steam

#284631

Postby staffordian » February 15th, 2020, 10:45 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:My local heritage railway (the SVR) has a speed limit along the whole track IIRC- 20mph?
Not sure if it's to protect the track, or because the coaches are slam door jobbies

tjh290633 wrote:I believe that all heritage lines are subject to a 20 mph speed limit. The locomotive at the other end is usually a precaution against failure of the elderly steam locomotive. I suspect that it was a diesel. With no facility to turn the Flying Scotsman at the end of the line, it is probably used to haul the return trip. It is possible that they have a turntable, but not large enough to handle a 4-6-2.

TJH


All preserved lines are subject to a 25mph limit.

Essentially, it's as they run under what used to be known as a light railway order (though I think it's now called something different now).

This means they don't need to comply with the current "big railway" regulations such as the in cab warning systems, central door locking, data logging etc, but it does limit the speed to 25mph to ensure safe operations.

The reason there was a (steam) loco on the rear was to speed up operations. The alternative would have been for Flying Scotsman to uncouple, shunt round to the back of the carriages and couple up again*, which takes time and I guess they wanted to run as many trains as possible. It costs a fortune for preserved lines to hire in locos, especially the "big stars" so they want to maximise revenue by allowing as many passengers as possible whilst it's there.

* It would run tender first, of course, but that's how most preserved lines work. Whilst many have turntables, almost none have one at each end of their line and generally the turntables are located near the engine sheds rather than being close to the stations. So turning locos to face chimney first is virtually never done as it would take too long and impact on the number of trains they could run.

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Re: Scotsman running out of steam

#284634

Postby gryffron » February 15th, 2020, 11:31 pm

It is unlocked doors that limits heritage railways to 25mph.

North Yorks trains running over the National Rail track to Whitby have the same restriction. They could go 35 if they locked all the doors, but it takes too long to do it manually.

Great Central (Loughborough) is cleared for 50mph running on their dual track, but rarely does for the same reason. Indeed, it is usually modern (sliding door) trains under test which make use of the higher speed.

The main reason for the diesel on the back is to provide electric power the buffet car. They often provide air brake effort too, although the "frequent flyers" on the mainline like Scotsman and Tornado have their own air brake generators.

Gryff

Howard
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Re: Scotsman running out of steam

#284635

Postby Howard » February 15th, 2020, 11:40 pm

staffordian wrote:All preserved lines are subject to a 25mph limit.

Essentially, it's as they run under what used to be known as a light railway order (though I think it's now called something different now).

This means they don't need to comply with the current "big railway" regulations such as the in cab warning systems, central door locking, data logging etc, but it does limit the speed to 25mph to ensure safe operations.

The reason there was a (steam) loco on the rear was to speed up operations. The alternative would have been for Flying Scotsman to uncouple, shunt round to the back of the carriages and couple up again*, which takes time and I guess they wanted to run as many trains as possible. It costs a fortune for preserved lines to hire in locos, especially the "big stars" so they want to maximise revenue by allowing as many passengers as possible whilst it's there.

* It would run tender first, of course, but that's how most preserved lines work. Whilst many have turntables, almost none have one at each end of their line and generally the turntables are located near the engine sheds rather than being close to the stations. So turning locos to face chimney first is virtually never done as it would take too long and impact on the number of trains they could run.


Yes, you are right. The steam loco on the back of the train ran backwards, and, I assume that it ran forwards on the return, but it was too cold to wait to see. A previous train was sent down the line before the Flying Scotsman, headed by a diesel.

As far as I know the Watercress line does not have a turntable at either end. The regular trains are single-engined. The locomotive is decoupled at the end of the run and driven to the other end of the carriages on a parallel line and then re-coupled, running backwards on its return. As you suggest, this takes some time to perform.

I guess there is some modern method of connecting the engines to avoid the rear engine pushing the train if the front engine needs to brake suddenly?

regards

Howard

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Re: Scotsman running out of steam

#284637

Postby Alaric » February 15th, 2020, 11:58 pm

Howard wrote:I guess there is some modern method of connecting the engines to avoid the rear engine pushing the train if the front engine needs to brake suddenly?


I doubt it's modern, the idea of a "continuous" brake dates back to Victorian times. It's made to work by a pipe that contains either air or a vacuum depending on the system. Either way the brakes come on both on the engines and carriages when the pressure changes.

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Re: Scotsman running out of steam

#284653

Postby staffordian » February 16th, 2020, 8:54 am

Howard wrote:
I guess there is some modern method of connecting the engines to avoid the rear engine pushing the train if the front engine needs to brake suddenly?

regards

Howard

Each railway has it's own regulations relating to locos attached to each end of a train, which is known as top and tailing, but there is no modern tech, just rules and knowledge. It is sometimes used on the national network, but in some countries, eg Ireland, it is not permitted.

There is a crew on each loco and the loco at the front is in charge. The trailing loco is generally set to simply coast along, pulled by the leading one. In certain circumstances, usually if requested by the driver of the leading loco (either by a sounding the whistle in a certain way, or by communication using hand held radio sets) the trailing loco can assist by pushing up any steep gradients, but things like this are not just made up as they go along; it all has to be done according to specific rules.

As Alaric says, the brakes operate throughout the train regardless of who applies them. It would normally be the leading driver, but in an emergency the driver of the trailing loco, the guard, or even a passenger (via the communication cord) can apply them.

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Re: Scotsman running out of steam

#284656

Postby staffordian » February 16th, 2020, 9:00 am

gryffron wrote:It is unlocked doors that limits heritage railways to 25mph.

North Yorks trains running over the National Rail track to Whitby have the same restriction. They could go 35 if they locked all the doors, but it takes too long to do it manually.

Great Central (Loughborough) is cleared for 50mph running on their dual track, but rarely does for the same reason. Indeed, it is usually modern (sliding door) trains under test which make use of the higher speed.

The main reason for the diesel on the back is to provide electric power the buffet car. They often provide air brake effort too, although the "frequent flyers" on the mainline like Scotsman and Tornado have their own air brake generators.

Gryff

The GC and a few other preserved lines can only operate above 25mph when closed to the public, and in the case of the GC, I believe it has no level crossings, which is something else taken into account when deciding what is a safe operating speed. The higher speeds are used for testing rolling stock, which is a useful bit of income for a preserved line. They recently tested some converted diesel battery locos intended for use by Northern Rail.

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Re: Scotsman running out of steam

#284883

Postby UncleIan » February 17th, 2020, 10:30 am

Howard wrote:A rather disappointed.


To paraphrase Yoda, when 97 you are, look as good you will not.


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