Electric car batteries are worse than petrol

[stooz]

There is lots of talk that electric car manufacture wastes more carbon damage in its life than just buying petrol.

I've just watched a seminar on the fully charged show with some big companies talking about how 95% of the battery is recycled.
So while we are doing a bad job of getting batteries raw materials out of the ground, once they are made they can be remade loads of times over it seems.

As a share investment, it seems there may even be a potential profit in investing in the recycling firms as well.

[dspp]

There is lots of talk that electric car manufacture wastes more carbon damage in its life than just buying petrol.

I've just watched a seminar on the fully charged show with some big companies talking about how 95% of the battery is recycled.
So while we are doing a bad job of getting batteries raw materials out of the ground, once they are made they can be remade loads of times over it seems.

As a share investment, it seems there may even be a potential profit in investing in the recycling firms as well.

Agree on the battery recycling and electrical source energy matters (i.e. predominantly renewables/non-fossil in more enlightened countries such as UK).

However I doubt it Stooz re recycling firms. We are likely to be at million mile batteries fairly soon, i.e. 40-yr lifetime vehicles. Even on 20-yr it will be a long time in the future before significant amounts of battery are creating a goldmine for early battery recycling investors.

regards, dspp

(a happy TSLA shareholder, at least for a while)

[AsleepInYorkshire]

16th April 2019
Tesla is developing a ‘unique battery recycling system’

Feb 23rd 2019
New refillable batteries could fuel an electric car revolution

21st October 2019
Inventor lands deal to manufacture ‘swappable’ aluminium-air battery that can power electric cars for 1,500 miles

20th January 2019
Myth busting: Battery recycling does work

AiYn'U

[JohnB]

Its thought that degraded batteries would be used in home battery packs, which could extend their useful life by a decade.

Also its not clear just what makes cars lose all value and be scrapped. It used to be rust did for cars, but now it seems its mechanical failure of the engine that often makes them uneconomic to repair. Of course fashion and crashes thin the numbers, but with better safety systems as we move towards self-driving cars, we could have 200k mile cars, so the energy consumed in their construction is amortised much better.

This does rather assume a mature market, at the moment I can't see Leaf's lasting 20 years as their technology becomes obsolete, and their batteries won't last as long, or be compatible with their successors.

While many people get animated about shortages of certain metals, and the poor labour conditions in the Congo where much is mined, I think there are battery technologies coming down the track that will lift those restrictions, and not even require recycling.

[Lanark]

There is lots of talk that electric car manufacture wastes more carbon damage in its life than just buying petrol.

Not all carbon emissions are considered equal, a car engine pushing out fumes in a busy city centre will directly affect the health of people living nearby. A power station in the countryside may still be emitting carbon but it is well away from the majority of the population.

The clean air directives are behind much of the push towards hybrids and electric cars, but I think they will do little to nothing to combat overall global warming. The big wins in that area will likely come from heavily taxing airline travel.

[dspp]

There is lots of talk that electric car manufacture wastes more carbon damage in its life than just buying petrol.

Not all carbon emissions are considered equal, a car engine pushing out fumes in a busy city centre will directly affect the health of people living nearby. A power station in the countryside may still be emitting carbon but it is well away from the majority of the population.

The clean air directives are behind much of the push towards hybrids and electric cars, but I think they will do little to nothing to combat overall global warming. The big wins in that area will likely come from heavily taxing airline travel.

Approximate numbers alert

approx 30-40% of global emissions are ground transportation, the vast majority of which is vehicle rather than rail/sea

approx 2% of global emissions are aviation

yes there are slightly different forcing effects due to placement & composition of emission, but they are second order issues not first order. The first order issue is the amount. 30-40% vs 2%. Hmmmmmm........

dspp

[bungeejumper]

While many people get animated about shortages of certain metals, and the poor labour conditions in the Congo where much is mined, I think there are battery technologies coming down the track that will lift those restrictions, and not even require recycling.

AFAIK, it's the shooting and the genocidal atrocities in DR Congo that are the main worries out there. Well, that and the fact that the Chinese already own quite a lot of of the mining geology.

Mind you, it's not a lot different when it comes to the rare earths that also underpin battery technologies. China's got the best and most cost-effective deposits. https://www.ft.com/content/c553bfc0-890 ... cea8523dc2 . (Suck it up, Trump.)

The "cost-effective" part is key. It takes a hell of a lot of rock, and manpower, to extract a gramme of rare earths, and the Chinese are the only nation who can make the cost equations add up. California has some deposits, but the extraction costs would be horrendous and the probable ecological damage from digging them out would be another issue if they even attempted it.

BJ

[sg31]

Its thought that degraded batteries would be used in home battery packs, which could extend their useful life by a decade.

Also its not clear just what makes cars lose all value and be scrapped. It used to be rust did for cars, but now it seems its mechanical failure of the engine that often makes them uneconomic to repair. Of course fashion and crashes thin the numbers, but with better safety systems as we move towards self-driving cars, we could have 200k mile cars, so the energy consumed in their construction is amortised much better.

This does rather assume a mature market, at the moment I can't see Leaf's lasting 20 years as their technology becomes obsolete, and their batteries won't last as long, or be compatible with their successors.

While many people get animated about shortages of certain metals, and the poor labour conditions in the Congo where much is mined, I think there are battery technologies coming down the track that will lift those restrictions, and not even require recycling.

In my admittedly limited experience it is the electrical systems that usually lead to cars being scrapped. The cost of replacing some of the computers, electrical control units can be more than a car is worth.

I had a problem with mafunctioning wipers on a Mercedes C class. The large auto electricians who had a look at it said it could be any one of a number of parts that could be causing the problem. To get at them all would involve stripping out most of the car and could take hours of work. There were a number of different units that might need replacing some were basically computers and cost around £700. It could also just be a bad connection. Who knows? In effect it was give them a blank cheque and hope for the best.

That was just the wipers.

Another vehicle had a slow drain on the battery. Park it for 48 hours and the battery was too flat to start the car. Very difficult to find out which unit was causing the problem. Again it was 'leave it with us and we will see if we can find the problem but we have no idea what it will cost or how long it will take.

Maybe I've just been unlucky.

[ReformedCharacter]

21st October 2019
Inventor lands deal to manufacture ‘swappable’ aluminium-air battery that can power electric cars for 1,500 miles

AiYn'U

1500 mile SUPER-battery: BUSTED!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmHnKKuBdco

RC

[MonsterMork]

Also its not clear just what makes cars lose all value and be scrapped. It used to be rust did for cars, but now it seems its mechanical failure of the engine that often makes them uneconomic to repair. Of course fashion and crashes thin the numbers, but with better safety systems as we move towards self-driving cars, we could have 200k mile cars, so the energy consumed in their construction is amortised much better.

Seen plenty of normal cars with over 200k on them, indeed my last Land Rover Discovery 2 (2004 year) had 265k on when I sold it a year ago, and as far as I am aware it is still going strong. Mined ewe, it had been meticulously looked after by it's previous owners with lots of work at a specialist (my last place of employment so I knew the work was good, I did half of it! ). Where I am now we have a customer with an Audi A3, 2008 year, with 210k on it and showing no signs of distress, and another with a 2003 transit with well over 450k (although admittedly it is on it's second engine, it is a transit after all!). Look after them, throw a few quid at them when needed, and some modern cars are looking likely to last a good while yet, although I must admit there are some which I am surprised made it off the forecourts when they were new

[redsturgeon]

, although I must admit there are some which I am surprised made it off the forecourts when they were new

Come on, don't hold back, can you name and shame?

John

[sg31]

. Look after them, throw a few quid at them when needed, and some modern cars are looking likely to last a good while yet, although I must admit there are some which I am surprised made it off the forecourts when they were new

I'd love to know the best and the worst.

[MonsterMork]

, although I must admit there are some which I am surprised made it off the forecourts when they were new

Come on, don't hold back, can you name and shame?

John

It might not be particularly wise for me to do so, the manufacturers have a lot more money for lawyers than I do!*

In general the annual reliability surveys from the likes of Which and so on can be a pretty good indicator. They don't always tally up with what I see on an MoT ramp mind you, as we need to remember that not every, say, Toyota Yaris, leads a low-mileage cosseted life on city streets, and not every Land Rover Defender gets worked to death on a farm. Similarly not every Yaris owner treats their car to a full under-body wash and wax every few months in the same way that ardent Land Rover enthusiasts might. I have seen the good and bad end of both these particular vehicles with similar age and mileage, indeed it seems that some "city cars" end up in a far worse state due to their limited mileage than those from out of town who rack up far more petrol station visits.

Summat else to remember is that last years stats from DVSA suggest that at the first MoT at three years of age some 17% of vehicles fail their test, rising to 19% at four years on the second test, and it is pretty much the same numbers for two wheels as four. These days of limited mileage personal contract hire type purchases seem to be having a small impact on reliability though, as nobody who is limited to, say, 6000 miles a year (barely a daily commute for many) is likely to be ragging their motor up and down the length and breadth of the country every week, wearing out brakes and tyres. The biggest issue seems to be on emissions with city cars, as they are rarely getting the engines given a good seeing to on the road - the old "Italian tune-up" is alive and well in the garage trade, along with sales of cans of fuel cure And don't get me started on buggered suspension courtesy of all the potholes out there, nobody is immune, not even Land Rovers!

MM



*<whispers>
Pre 2010 Vauxhall Corsa or Ford Ka are examples
<you ain't seen me, right?>

[redsturgeon]

Thank MM fully understand.

Sorry for taking this thread of topic. I will start another thread to talk about car reliability...I have my own thoughts.

Back on topic here guys!

John