Car Battery - how long left?

[onthemove]

Car last used for a long journey at Christmas.

Since then, mostly a weekly shopping trip of 3 miles, town roads, mostly 20mph limits, air con usually on, heating on, lights on, radio on, except for one fairly recent 20 mile round trip commute - the return 10 mile journey averaged ~10mph, with a lot of idling in unusually bad traffic.

Last night did the usual 3 mile round trip for which the car started fine, and also started fine for the return journey. No sign of problems.

On arrival back at home, managed to stall (as usual) navigating a tight reverse to park round the building.

But on first attempt to restart the car, the lights dimmed to almost nothing and the radio went quiet, and the starter barely turned over.

Yikes!

I quickly switched as much as I could off, and immediately attempted a second restart, and this time it turned over fine and caught straight away. So I finished the reverse, parked up and left it.

I'm going to take the battery out and charge it this evening / overnight.

How urgent should I consider replacing this battery?

Will taking it out and charging it give me a few more weeks of similar round trips, or is this now a sign that the battery is really caput such that I couldn't even be sure of starting it in a few days time?

Battery age unknown; it came with the car, and got through the previous winter no problems.

I had been starting to notice that while trying to demist, when I turned the aircon on, the lights have been briefly dimming a little as the aircon kicks in, even though the engine is idling.

I will be looking to replace this battery, but just wondering where on the urgency scale I should put it - does my next trip need to be to pick up a replacement, or will a recharge buy me a few more weeks? I guess what I'm really asking is … do car batteries die fast once they're on their way out, or can they be limped along for a while with some additional re-charges?

Thanks

[richlist]

In general.....when a battery charge falls below a certain point (a flat battery has usually fallen below that point) it's virtually impossible to recover to a level where it will retain its charge.

Had to replace a couple of batteries over the last year.....a Mercedes @ £158 and a Range Rover @ £180......ouch.

[johnhemming]

I have an Artek jump starter that lots of people borrow off me to start their cars. It is worth having something like this.

[Breelander]

Battery age unknown; it came with the car, and got through the previous winter no problems.

I had been starting to notice that while trying to demist, when I turned the aircon on, the lights have been briefly dimming a little as the aircon kicks in, even though the engine is idling.

I will be looking to replace this battery, but just wondering where on the urgency scale I should put it - does my next trip need to be to pick up a replacement, or will a recharge buy me a few more weeks?

Difficult to say, your use pattern since Christmas has been a heavy drain on the battery charge with little use to recharge it. Even a new battery would dim the lights when you turn on the aircon or demist when it's down to little or no charge.

Winter always highlights battery weaknesses, the charging chemistry works less efficiently in low temperatures, plus the power demands are higher.

I guess what I'm really asking is … do car batteries die fast once they're on their way out, or can they be limped along for a while with some additional re-charges?

No, battery failure is a slow steady decline in performance, it's not going to suddenly fall of a cliff. Even if it is on it's last legs (which hasn't been proven yet, it could just be low on charge) then a full recharge should keep you going long enough to decide.

Specialist battery shops can test a battery's health with a power drain test.

[bungeejumper]

A lot of issues there, but yes, a battery can go into terminal decline surprisingly quickly when its allotted hour approaches. I think you realise that 3 mile hops @ 20 mph with the aircon and heating at full blast will have drawn down more goodwill from your battery than you were putting into it, so yes, it wasn't a surprise that it finally decided not to play ball any more.

I will be looking to replace this battery, but just wondering where on the urgency scale I should put it - does my next trip need to be to pick up a replacement, or will a recharge buy me a few more weeks? I guess what I'm really asking is … do car batteries die fast once they're on their way out, or can they be limped along for a while with some additional re-charges?

Right, that's that question sorted. An overnight charge might work well enough for a week or two, but ten miles up the dual carriageway will probably be just as good, and will probably be better for the engine too. If that doesn't put fire in its belly, the urgency scale for replacement depends on how much you depend on your car and how you value your time in cash/bother terms?

If it were me, I'd be off to the shop tomorrow morning with the price of a tyre in my hot sweaty little fist, because when I want a car to go, I don't have much of an appetite for letting it do anything else. But each to his own.

If you're comfortable with spanners, a new battery from the excellent Tayna (https://www.tayna.co.uk/) will get you a better product than what you'd expect from your local tyre depot for the same money. It typically takes ten minutes to install, but then you've got to recycle your old battery,for which you might get as much as a tenner from your local scrappy.

If you're happier just leaving others to do the work, that's fine too. If you're an occasional user and your car isn't (a) a roaring four litre monster or (b) one of the cars that stop/start automatically in traffic queues (and need a bigger battery), then you should get change out of a hundred quid.

That's a start. If you get the option to buy a silver rated battery at an affordable price, or only a bit more, take it.

BJ

[onthemove]

Thanks for all the responses.

I've just got home (other means, not driving) and removed the battery to put on charge, and my charger has gone straight to "ready and maintaining", skipping the charging part.

I suspect that's probably as good a sign as any that the battery is properly kaput.

Or at least, I'm not going to be able to charge it, which in practical terms is the same thing. I'll leave it on the 'ready and maintaining' for a few hours ... I'm not sure if this is putting any charge in at all; if it is, hopefully it'll give me enough to get to halfords.

So my next question...

If you're comfortable with spanners, a new battery from the excellent Tayna (https://www.tayna.co.uk/) will get you a better product than what you'd expect from your local tyre depot for the same money. It typically takes ten minutes to install, but then you've got to recycle your old battery,for which you might get as much as a tenner from your local scrappy.

If you're happier just leaving others to do the work, that's fine too. If you're an occasional user and your car isn't (a) a roaring four litre monster or (b) one of the cars that stop/start automatically in traffic queues (and need a bigger battery), then you should get change out of a hundred quid.

That's a start. If you get the option to buy a silver rated battery at an affordable price, or only a bit more, take it.

BJ

Halfords have two compatible - "This product is an exact fit for your car" - batteries listed...

A regular lead-acid with 3yr guarantee, and a 'silver' version with a 5 yr guarantee that also claims bigger other numbers as well (capacity, starting ability, etc) and being better for cars with satnavs and aircon, for not that much more money.

I was already leaning towards the silver 5yr version (coincidentally they've got it dot-on £100 for the size for my car, compared to £80 for the lead acid with 3yr guarantee), but I know very little about 'silver' batteries, in fact last night on Halfords was the first I'd heard of them ... I quickly googled them last night, but I'm still fairly none-the-wiser.

The google did throw up some hits related to charging voltage being slightly different or something along those lines. I'm presuming that since Halfords say it's an exact "fit" for my car, that I should be OK with it as far as the car is concerned? Is that a reasonable assumption?

And final question - my battery charger says "Suitable for all 12v lead acid and deep cycle leisure batteries" ... do 'silver' batteries fall in either of those categories, or would this charger not be suitable for the 'silver' type? Not that it seems much use on my existing lead-acid battery at this moment in time!

If my existing battery might have lasted a few more weeks, I was going to investigate more the cheaper options like online, which was the main driver behind my OP wondering if I'd have time to do the research... e.g. I noticed last night Amazon list some similar silver batteries quite a bit cheaper, but they don't seem exactly the same model as the Halfords one, so I wouldn't be sure of compatibility, and they also don't appear to have the 5yr guarantee.

But since it's now gone up the priority list, I'll probably just bite the bullet and pop to Halfords this weekend.

Fingers crossed my bike gets me to work tomorrow - the back wheel is making some rather worrying noises! I'd already planned to look at that this weekend!

Thanks

[ten0rman]

My recent experience, recent as in the last roughly 20 years, is that 3 year warranty batteries last about 3 years, actually slightly over just so that it's out of warranty, but on the otherhand a recognised top quality make, Bosch, Exide etc with a longer guaranteed life will actually last well past the warranty period. Personally now, I absolutely will not buy anything other than Bosch or Exide, and avoid like the plague, batteries with names such as Jolly Green Giant or whatever.

I don't recognise the name "Silver" although I have a vague recollection of it being an Exide. My last battery was a Bosch with a 5 year warranty. Which means that anytime now it will be out of warranty!

I too have used Tayna, not for any reasons of cost, but more because they have what I want and it gets delivered home.

Spend the money, go for a longer life battery by a reputable make.

ten0rman

[onthemove]

I don't recognise the name "Silver" although I have a vague recollection of it being an Exide. My last battery was a Bosch with a 5 year warranty. Which means that anytime now it will be out of warranty!

I too have used Tayna, not for any reasons of cost, but more because they have what I want and it gets delivered home.

Spend the money, go for a longer life battery by a reputable make.

ten0rman

This is the 'silver' one that Halfords listed as 1 of the 2 compatible with my car... (the other being basic lead-acid, 3yr guarantee @ £80)

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/batte ... 74056.html

Yuasa isn't a brand I recognise - never heard of them before - but I usually find the high street retailers do at least do some minimum due diligence on the products they sell. And they list it with a 5yr guarantee, so as long as Halfords outlasts the battery, that'd at least be something. Though not sure whether they'd be considered a 'reputable' make?

Tayna (not heard of them either prior to this thread) only list 1, and I initially presumed with it being so cheap that it was a lead acid, but just checked again and it was a silver at half the price of halfords, though not quite the same spec - slightly lower capacity,etc. So there is _some_ advantage to the Halfords one, though not sure double the price worth!

That lower price almost changed my mind, but then looking at the warranty info on the Tayna website, I think I'll give them a wide berth.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/tutorials/batte ... nformation
"The warranty does not covered [sic] faults that are not due to a manufacturing issue."
"The warranty does not cover the following: (...) Wear and Tear"

I mean when you're buying a battery where you're choosing between 3yr and 5yr (or 4yr in the Tayna case) guarantee models, you'd think you'd be talking guarantee for wear and tear - reflecting the expected usable life of the product. I thought the silver batteries were supposed to be more robust to wear and tear hence why the longer guarantee. But apparently not with Tayna!

[BirlingB]

Hi, sounds exactly like a problem someone on our yard had a couple weeks ago. They had bought a new £80 battery but still experienced random 'flat battery syndrome', when car would start ok one minute but an hour later wouldn't - dim lights, no radio, sick starter etc. I had to give them a jump start but needed to earth directly onto engine block for it to start. Turned out to be a corroded earth lead, apprarently common problem on their Clio! And less than £10 for new length wire & couple bolts.
So, if your charger suggests battery is good it probably is. Has it got one of those clear inducator eyes on the top that show if charged or not by a change of colour? If you do need to buy a new one (halfords do -20% with a trade card) then give your local Motor Factors a ring and ask for a good price inc vat - you may be suprised.

[onthemove]

. Has it got one of those clear inducator eyes on the top that show if charged or not by a change of colour?

There's a small circular window on top that looks down into the battery. Inside it it's quite dark, but if I shine a light into it, it looks like a green or perhaps slightly yellowish green colour.

There's no label around it or anything to say what it is.
The battery came with the car (bought 2nd hand), so no instructions or anything for the battery.

Does that window sound like it might be an indicator eye?

I must admit, I was a little surprised that it started the second attempt after the first attempt when all the lights went dim, but I did quickly switch off anything close to hand before retrying.

Before I removed the battery earlier this evening, I did just start the car a couple of times to see if it would start - it did start twice, reasonably OK, but there was a little hesitation that would leave me nervous whether the next attempt would be successful, with more hesitation on the second start compared to the first, that seemed would might be consistent with diminishing charge.

After the failed start, the car had literally only gone around the side of the building between where it failed to start, and where I parked it, so no chance to recharge itself since then. The only difference the subsequent starts is less other devices turned on competing for power.

[Nimrod103]

I have an Artek jump starter that lots of people borrow off me to start their cars. It is worth having something like this.

Just looked on Amazon at this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Portable-Start ... 281&sr=8-6

Looks very good.I assume it is a Lithium battery? I might get one because I find my old Halford's jump start battery is not powerful enough to turn over my 2 litre diesel.

I note in the instructions and pictures it shows the negative lead connected to the negative battery terminal. I have seen in videos that one should never do this, but instead attach the negative lead to the bodywork metal. Why is that?

[onthemove]

I've just disconnected the charger, though it only ever said "ready and maintaining", never "charging", and measured the voltage...

Initially 13.0 volts.

Dropping to 12.99v, 12.98v .... 12.93v within the space of a few seconds while the voltmeter was still connected.

Now 12.83v after approx 2 minutes.

Now 12.76v after another few minutes.

Now 12.72v

Now 12.61v after ~1hr

I guess that does suggest the charger was still putting something into the battery, so that's good to know!

And from googling battery voltages, that (12.7v / 12.6v) also seems to be the expected voltage for 100% charged. Assuming it doesn't drop any further.

So maybe I am having second thoughts whether it's a battery problem.

Hi, sounds exactly like a problem someone on our yard had a couple weeks ago. They had bought a new £80 battery but still experienced random 'flat battery syndrome', when car would start ok one minute but an hour later wouldn't - dim lights, no radio, sick starter etc. I had to give them a jump start but needed to earth directly onto engine block for it to start. Turned out to be a corroded earth lead, apprarently common problem on their Clio! And less than £10 for new length wire & couple bolts.

My car's a Peugeot 107, but it does potentially sound like it may be having a similar problem.

Would you know which earth lead was the issue in the case you mention? (From where to where?)

I've just opened up the Haynes manual, but I'm not an expert on reading car electrical diagrams by a long shot (they're a little different to the types I used in GCSE CDT Tech & A level physics)... it looks like there are 11 different earth points on the car.

I'd guess since so far the only problem I've seen is when trying to start the engine, that would narrow it down to E1 and E2 (the only 'named' earth points on the starting and charging circuit diagram), and since E1 is direct to the battery from the frame, I'd guess (?) that that's unlikely the problem as I presume if that was dodgy, it would affect all circuits even on the other earth points (or am I misunderstanding how earthing works in vehicles?)

So I'm guessing the connection from the starter relay on the "motor fuse / relay board" to earth point E2, will possibly be a good starting point for me to check, if I can find where those wires are... probably a job for the weekend. I hope they are reasonably easy to find and access ... I'm ok with the easy access car maintenance jobs, but if things get difficult to access or just difficult anyway, then I tend to get scared off.

Actually, when you say corrosion, what specifically should I be looking for? I mean, I understand corrosion normally, but since other normally working circuits drop out (headlights go dim, etc) when the starter is turned, should I be looking for a short circuit? Wouldn't corrosion normally just lead to a broken cable / broken connection and that relevant circuit (perhaps intermittently) not functioning?

Anyway, thanks .. your suggestion has at least given me food for thought and some things to check.

[Breelander]

... I know very little about 'silver' batteries, in fact last night on Halfords was the first I'd heard of them ... I quickly googled them last night, but I'm still fairly none-the-wiser...

It's still a conventional lead-acid battery, but...

...with grids made from lead-calcium-silver alloy, instead of the traditional lead-antimony alloy or newer lead-calcium alloy. They stand out for its resistance to corrosion and the destructive effects of high temperatures. The result of this improvement is manifested in increased battery life and maintaining a high starting power over time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_calcium_battery

[BirlingB]

There's a small circular window on top that looks down into the battery. Inside it it's quite dark, but if I shine a light into it, it looks like a green or perhaps slightly yellowish green colour.

usually when battery is charged it shows a green colour when you peer into that 'window'. The one fitted to my car turns from green to a clear with a red dot if it needs charging - I found that out once after leaving the inside light on for a weekend
Always useful to have a set of jump leads tucked in the boot just in case. How old is the car? Original battery? . For the type of use you describe then I wouldnt expect it to last longer than 3-5 yrs. So, you may need a new one but it could equally be a poor earth if the battery is holding a charge.
Sorry, typing this then just seen you replied....
The earth strap on the car I mentioned in my first reply went from the battery to car body behind the wheelarch where it had corroded, causing increased resistance. There was then another earth from the car body connected to the gearbox. The increased resistance meant not enough oomph getting to the starter motor. As a temp fix they connected a jump lead from battery negative and other end onto the engine until they could get a repair done. Google is your friend.

[johnhemming]

I assume it is a Lithium battery?

It is Lithium. I use it for my Discovery 3. I started a broken down Taxi with it on Wednesday. The driver was shocked as to how such a little box could be so effective.

Another two good things about it are
a) It charges from a USB port so can be charged from the cigar lighter/USB port in a car.
b) It also has USB ports out so can charge phones etc.

The one I bought was actually Flylinktech I was searching for one and I thought it was the Artek one, but I have found the one I ordered. It was 20Ah and 1.5kA max. It cost about £70, but I bought the top of the range so it would be guaranteed to cope with any challenges.

[bungeejumper]

In no particular order:

The braided earth strap to the gearbox (or sump) can certainly abrade away or come loose in time, and that will reduce the amount of juice that gets to your starter motor.

I've not heard of that happening on a modern car unless it's had work done on that part of the lump that might have required the strap to be removed. (Clutch replacement, for example.) But there's a first time for everything. Start by tightening the bolt to the battery terminals, because those can always go loose or get dirty in the places where it matters.

Yuasa is a pretty good Japanese brand. Most of the world's motorcycles use them, and so does a lot of machinery. Reputable.

You say that this is the battery that came with the car when you bought it. Given that first batteries (from new) tend to last five or six years, and given the age of the car (which you'll know), does that give you a clue as to whether it was the factory-fitted original?

Nobody has asked yet, but is your car a diesel? They tend to make heavier demands on batteries than petrol cars, and manufacturers generally fit chunkier batteries to them. But the smart-alec fitters in tyre replacement bays have been known to replace the big chunky originals with smaller batteries that just can't manage the amp-hours. ("The customer will never notice the difference" )

Bottom line, though, is that I'm guessing your battery has just had it, probably after six or seven years of faithful service. If only every "consumable" part of a car was as good a friend as that!

BJ

[Maroochydore]

The braided earth strap to the gearbox (or sump) can certainly abrade away or come loose in time, and that will reduce the amount of juice that gets to your starter motor.

Close to what I was going to say except instead of 'abrade' I was going to point towards 'corrosion'.

The favourite place for me would be the terminal on the starter motor. The wire should be be disconnected and the spade connector cleaned up with some emery cloth or other abrasive material.

Second would be the earth strap which could be loose or have some corrosion/oxidation.

Why I said starter motor is favourite is because the sudden go/no go/go scenario is consistent with something that is loose or vibratable (if that's a proper word). The starter motor would come under a lot of torque as it starts which would cause vibration and would also be located in a position to pick up a load of crude etc off the road.