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Your views on future road investment

Passion, instruction, buying, care, maintenance and more, any form of vehicle discussion is welcome here

Midsmartin
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437305

Postby Midsmartin » August 25th, 2021, 1:46 pm

Thanks for that. It is astonishing that with climate change and habitat loss and fragmentation that more tarmac is still seen as the answer. The politicians don't get it yet.

Dod101
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437308

Postby Dod101 » August 25th, 2021, 1:56 pm

Midsmartin wrote:Thanks for that. It is astonishing that with climate change and habitat loss and fragmentation that more tarmac is still seen as the answer. The politicians don't get it yet.


So what is your answer? Pack horses?

Dod

vrdiver
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437316

Postby vrdiver » August 25th, 2021, 2:38 pm

Dod101 wrote:
Midsmartin wrote:Thanks for that. It is astonishing that with climate change and habitat loss and fragmentation that more tarmac is still seen as the answer. The politicians don't get it yet.


So what is your answer? Pack horses?

Dod

How about a proper joined-up-transportation policy?

Private cars are very convenient, but with a lot of effort, we could organise busses, trains, and taxis to take care of a lot more travel than they do. I'm a car driver and cyclist and would welcome more "sensible" effort to get people to use bicycles, or to walk where appropriate.

When I was working in Holland I used to take a train, then get a "treintaxi" to go to the customer's office. The Dutch seem to have put a bit of mental muscle into their transport policy, rather than just letting the market sort it out... Perhaps we should take a look and see if any of their ideas would help us over here?

Perhaps we should be looking to join up transport policy with working practices? Working from home could be a good, permanent thing (even if only part-time from home) that would ease pressure on roads. Encouraging employers to change business hours for at least some of their employees might also help (why does my local industrial estate have a traffic jam at 8:00 am and 4:30 pm every day, with the roads empty in-between times?). Perhaps we could encourage schools to look at their start and end times as well, with a view to easing local jams?

There are so many ways we could, with a little effort, improve the flow of traffic without the need for more roads, but until people accept a small amount of inconvenience we are left with only one apparent choice - build more roads; which, if experience is anything to go by, quickly fill up and revert to the same traffic issues as before.

Building more roads is all well and good, but if it encourages more car usage we will be back where we started (sitting in traffic). I remember a study on car usage that described a "pent up" demand for more roads, implying that any new capacity would not improve road journeys, but would reduce the use of public transport. Apologies, but I have no reference re that study to offer you.

VRD

Dod101
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437322

Postby Dod101 » August 25th, 2021, 2:52 pm

vrdiver wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Midsmartin wrote:Thanks for that. It is astonishing that with climate change and habitat loss and fragmentation that more tarmac is still seen as the answer. The politicians don't get it yet.


So what is your answer? Pack horses?

Dod

How about a proper joined-up-transportation policy?

Private cars are very convenient, but with a lot of effort, we could organise busses, trains, and taxis to take care of a lot more travel than they do. I'm a car driver and cyclist and would welcome more "sensible" effort to get people to use bicycles, or to walk where appropriate.

When I was working in Holland I used to take a train, then get a "treintaxi" to go to the customer's office. The Dutch seem to have put a bit of mental muscle into their transport policy, rather than just letting the market sort it out... Perhaps we should take a look and see if any of their ideas would help us over here?

Perhaps we should be looking to join up transport policy with working practices? Working from home could be a good, permanent thing (even if only part-time from home) that would ease pressure on roads. Encouraging employers to change business hours for at least some of their employees might also help (why does my local industrial estate have a traffic jam at 8:00 am and 4:30 pm every day, with the roads empty in-between times?). Perhaps we could encourage schools to look at their start and end times as well, with a view to easing local jams?

There are so many ways we could, with a little effort, improve the flow of traffic without the need for more roads, but until people accept a small amount of inconvenience we are left with only one apparent choice - build more roads; which, if experience is anything to go by, quickly fill up and revert to the same traffic issues as before.

Building more roads is all well and good, but if it encourages more car usage we will be back where we started (sitting in traffic). I remember a study on car usage that described a "pent up" demand for more roads, implying that any new capacity would not improve road journeys, but would reduce the use of public transport. Apologies, but I have no reference re that study to offer you.

VRD


You are of course correct certainly re joined up transport policy but to get people out of their cars and on to public transport entails making public transport not just more comfortable but also more convenient. I for instance have a railway station just over a mile from my house but only about half a dozen trains stop there each day. I therefore have to drive to the next nearest station about 16 miles away, park my car and get an excellent service into major towns. I seldom drive into these towns nowadays, mainly because of the cost of parking so that might be another answer and I have to say that making towns difficult for motorists is probably quite a good idea, however unpopular at least in the short run that is.

Unfortunately there are a great many roads that still need to be upgraded because I cannot imagine that we will ever get away from the long distance moving of freight by road although of course we keep speaking about getting more on to rail. I cannot comment on arrangements for the office commute as I am long since past worrying about that.

Dod

gnawsome
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437349

Postby gnawsome » August 25th, 2021, 4:10 pm

Midsmartin wrote:Thanks for that. It is astonishing that with climate change and habitat loss and fragmentation that more tarmac is still seen as the answer. The politicians don't get it yet.


Can't argue with that but I 'd strongly suggest that the motorist is even more at fault in chosing to believe that what was once regarded as something of a luxury is now cheaply available.

Hallucigenia
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437352

Postby Hallucigenia » August 25th, 2021, 4:13 pm

Dod101 wrote:Unfortunately there are a great many roads that still need to be upgraded


Exactly - there becomes an issue of fairness in that there are still towns up north that lack the bypasses that have been the norm in the Home Counties for 30 years, forcing through traffic into a massive traffic jam in the town centre which is no good for anybody - local residents, local traffic, or through traffic. And no buses after 6pm or at weekends.

Also the CO2 argument becomes weaker as the fleet changes - less than half the cars sold in the UK this year have been "pure" petrol cars, in July pure petrol and diesel accounted for 51.9% of sales. Admittedly there's a lot of hybrids in there, pure battery electrics are only 9%, but the mix is changing rapidly. As it will have to, with sales of petrol/diesel banned in less than a decade, and hybrids by 2035. And those electric cars will need roads to run on.

And the generation mix that fuels those cars is also changing rapidly - no coal, and >60% non-fossil in the UK at the moment. So the assumption that cars are inherently bad is weaker than it was - notwithstanding the fact that yes, they use raw materials and need space to park/drive. Arguably houses are a bigger CO2 problem than cars, and further from reaching solutions.

But the real problem is that what works in central London may not work in provincial market towns, and what works in the market towns may not work in remote parts of Scotland or Wales. People tend to assume that all of the country is like their neighbourhood, I suspect Londoners would be surprised to hear that there are A-roads in the UK that are still single-track with passing places (see eg the A837 on Streetview). So one size won't fit all, and blanket bans on one approach or the other won't work.

88V8
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437416

Postby 88V8 » August 25th, 2021, 8:50 pm

There's also the point that the govt apparently wishes to encourage autonomous vehicles.
If that ever comes to fruition it will be a paradigm shift; fewer people will wish to own cars, but there will be traffic jams of empty autonomous taxis waiting to be hailed, and public transport or at least the bus will be killed stone dead.
Perhaps.
With that in the wings, how on earth does one plan?

The Swiss appear to do public transport very well. I was astounded at the interlock of arrival/departure times between boat, bus and train in local services. And in my limited experience, it did seem to work.

V8

Nimrod103
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437423

Postby Nimrod103 » August 25th, 2021, 9:58 pm

Surely proper planning must start with housing. At present, the Government is allowing massive low density housing on greenfield sites. Much of this development is in new and expanded villages, a long way from rail or good road infrastructure. In my part of Southeast England some of this devlopment is occurring on land designated as Areas of Outstanding Beauty - it seems to matter not a jot.

Yet this type of development is the most inefficient from the point of view of organizing public transport. The Government is creating a Britain which will always be heavily dependent on private motoring, and given the increase in population and increasing affluence, there will be more cars so we will need more roads.

Unless of course, the move to battery cars (which AIUI are perhaps £10,000 more expensive than their ICE versions) drives a lot of poorer motorists off the road. So that what roads remain will be the preserve of the rich. That sounds good to me. No new roads, and fewer jams.

sg31
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437536

Postby sg31 » August 26th, 2021, 10:25 am

Resurfacing the existing roads would be a start.

pje16
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437537

Postby pje16 » August 26th, 2021, 10:28 am

and do the job properly
there are potholes EVERY year at the end of my road
Council subbies come along and fill them on the cheap, all it takes is lorry to do u-turn on it and it all gets churned up :roll:

AF62
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437657

Postby AF62 » August 26th, 2021, 6:38 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:Surely proper planning must start with housing. At present, the Government is allowing massive low density housing on greenfield sites. Much of this development is in new and expanded villages, a long way from rail or good road infrastructure. In my part of Southeast England some of this devlopment is occurring on land designated as Areas of Outstanding Beauty - it seems to matter not a jot.

Yet this type of development is the most inefficient from the point of view of organizing public transport. The Government is creating a Britain which will always be heavily dependent on private motoring, and given the increase in population and increasing affluence, there will be more cars so we will need more roads.


In which case it would seem most sensible for the government to compulsory purchase all the existing properties in these rural areas and then demolish them and rehouse the residents in a suitable urban area with good and efficient transport. A few high rise blocks in Tower Hamlets perhaps?

Unless of course the complaints about development in these areas is just NIMBYism.

scrumpyjack
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437663

Postby scrumpyjack » August 26th, 2021, 6:57 pm

Assuming the technology of autopilot EVs develops as seems likely, self driving electric cars on existing roads seems much the best solution. You summon a vehicle on your app, it arrives and takes you directly to where you want to go and then drives off to pick up the next ride. It does not need to park, the passenger goes directly from the initial point to the destination without changes, without having to go into a city centre etc etc. So building roads still makes sense. What does not make sense is HS2 or transport systems designed around outdated concepts of public transport.

Individual car ownership no longer makes sense and there will be far fewer vehicles as we will no longer each need one that is parked doing nothing most of the time. The vast resources currently allocated to parking will be released.

Roll on, Elon!

Nimrod103
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437669

Postby Nimrod103 » August 26th, 2021, 7:51 pm

AF62 wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Surely proper planning must start with housing. At present, the Government is allowing massive low density housing on greenfield sites. Much of this development is in new and expanded villages, a long way from rail or good road infrastructure. In my part of Southeast England some of this devlopment is occurring on land designated as Areas of Outstanding Beauty - it seems to matter not a jot.

Yet this type of development is the most inefficient from the point of view of organizing public transport. The Government is creating a Britain which will always be heavily dependent on private motoring, and given the increase in population and increasing affluence, there will be more cars so we will need more roads.


In which case it would seem most sensible for the government to compulsory purchase all the existing properties in these rural areas and then demolish them and rehouse the residents in a suitable urban area with good and efficient transport. A few high rise blocks in Tower Hamlets perhaps?

Unless of course the complaints about development in these areas is just NIMBYism.


That seems a little bit more extreme than just being forced by the Govt to give up ICE's.

9873210
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437673

Postby 9873210 » August 26th, 2021, 7:57 pm

88V8 wrote:There's also the point that the govt apparently wishes to encourage autonomous vehicles.
If that ever comes to fruition it will be a paradigm shift; fewer people will wish to own cars, but there will be traffic jams of empty autonomous taxis waiting to be hailed.


Why do people associate AI self driving cars with pooled cars rather than private ownership?

There is nothing intrinsic that says self driving cars should operate as taxis. There are a lot of people who want to avoid use of shared space, on the grounds of wee in the elevator and vomit on the seats. And of course you can't leave your umbrella in a taxi, well I guess you can leave it there, but it won't be available when you need it.

I'd expect self driving cars to increase the number in private hands, since the norm will change from one per driver to one per person.

AF62
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437675

Postby AF62 » August 26th, 2021, 8:02 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
AF62 wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:Surely proper planning must start with housing. At present, the Government is allowing massive low density housing on greenfield sites. Much of this development is in new and expanded villages, a long way from rail or good road infrastructure. In my part of Southeast England some of this devlopment is occurring on land designated as Areas of Outstanding Beauty - it seems to matter not a jot.

Yet this type of development is the most inefficient from the point of view of organizing public transport. The Government is creating a Britain which will always be heavily dependent on private motoring, and given the increase in population and increasing affluence, there will be more cars so we will need more roads.


In which case it would seem most sensible for the government to compulsory purchase all the existing properties in these rural areas and then demolish them and rehouse the residents in a suitable urban area with good and efficient transport. A few high rise blocks in Tower Hamlets perhaps?

Unless of course the complaints about development in these areas is just NIMBYism.


That seems a little bit more extreme than just being forced by the Govt to give up ICE's.


Not at all.

If those living in beautiful green areas of the UK consider that expanding those developments is a bad thing because of the traffic problems, then they should take the first step and not just become NIMBYs. They should sell up and arrange for their house to be demolished, their car sent to the scrapyard, and move into a tower block in the nearest urban area where there is efficient public transport.

Nimrod103
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437716

Postby Nimrod103 » August 26th, 2021, 11:04 pm

AF62 wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
AF62 wrote:
In which case it would seem most sensible for the government to compulsory purchase all the existing properties in these rural areas and then demolish them and rehouse the residents in a suitable urban area with good and efficient transport. A few high rise blocks in Tower Hamlets perhaps?

Unless of course the complaints about development in these areas is just NIMBYism.


That seems a little bit more extreme than just being forced by the Govt to give up ICE's.


Not at all.

If those living in beautiful green areas of the UK consider that expanding those developments is a bad thing because of the traffic problems, then they should take the first step and not just become NIMBYs. They should sell up and arrange for their house to be demolished, their car sent to the scrapyard, and move into a tower block in the nearest urban area where there is efficient public transport.


And the carbon footprint of that plan would be....incalculable.

AF62
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437751

Postby AF62 » August 27th, 2021, 9:26 am

Nimrod103 wrote:
AF62 wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
That seems a little bit more extreme than just being forced by the Govt to give up ICE's.


Not at all.

If those living in beautiful green areas of the UK consider that expanding those developments is a bad thing because of the traffic problems, then they should take the first step and not just become NIMBYs. They should sell up and arrange for their house to be demolished, their car sent to the scrapyard, and move into a tower block in the nearest urban area where there is efficient public transport.


And the carbon footprint of that plan would be....incalculable.


No, the carbon saving of that plan would be easily calculable.

Instead of all these people living in their large poorly insulated houses in the countryside they would be living in modern energy efficient compact homes in tower blocks heated by communal waste energy heating systems.

All their gas guzzling SUVs that everyone in the countryside seems to have would no longer be contributing to climate change, and they would be walking or getting the bus to the shops.

And after the demolition of their homes the land itself would be returned to the beautiful nature they are so keen to protect, with that land now operating as carbon capture.

CliffEdge
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437775

Postby CliffEdge » August 27th, 2021, 11:46 am

When I am subjected to the torture that is the M25 it is obvious to me that most of the cars on there are making pointless journeys.

Just one aspect of the fact that most jobs nowadays are pointless.

pje16
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Re: Your views on future road investment

#437780

Postby pje16 » August 27th, 2021, 12:01 pm

CliffEdge wrote:When I am subjected to the torture that is the M25 it is obvious to me that most of the cars on there are making pointless journeys.
Just one aspect of the fact that most jobs nowadays are pointless.

Why don't you add "LIfe" and we'll all be done then :D


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