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WHICH? car reliability survey

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jackdaww
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WHICH? car reliability survey

#335244

Postby jackdaww » August 23rd, 2020, 12:36 pm

re this months which? survey..

some of the best brands are ---

toyota
suzuki
honda
mazda
hyundai

some of the worst are --

renault
nissan
volvo
audi
jaguar
landrover
ssangyong

many of the very popular brands are mediocre on reliability --

skoda
ford
vauxhall
fiat
bmw
volkswagen
seat
mercedes.

of course many owners will have different views , but its is quite a big survey of owners experiences.

:arrow:

Lanark
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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335297

Postby Lanark » August 23rd, 2020, 5:16 pm

The problem with this survey is that in the last year several of the top Japanese brands (toyota, honda) have moved into selling only electric or hybrid motors.
All electric cars are vastly more expensive with terrible depreciation and hybrids have twice as many things to go wrong.

So I don't think you can extrapolate the last few years results with the cars currently for sale.

it is noticeable that they are still selling petrol and diesel engines in the USA market, so the UK is very much acting as the guinea pig for a lot of new technology.

bungeejumper
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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335301

Postby bungeejumper » August 23rd, 2020, 5:41 pm

Not many surprises there, really. It's been known for a long time that Japanese/Korean brands score highly on reliability, even though they don't usually set a driver's heart aflame with the unbridled passion of their engineering. (My Toyota's "neutral" steering seems to be anathema to those who prefer a steering wheel that kicks back at them while cornering.)

Whereas a Beemer will hit you in the wallet as well as in the overheated seat of your driving pants. No surprises there, either. :twisted:

And as for Volkswagen, Audi, Seat and Skoda, they're all the same company using many of the same Chinese-built parts. My wife's 2009 Golf TDI has hit us with various £600 to £800 bills (injectors, EGR valves, etc) that simply wouldn't have happened on my 2007 Passat or the wife's 2001 Polo, for the simple reason that neither of those cars had those complicated toys to start with. Just sayin'.....

Genuinely sad to see great brands like Mercedes and Jaguar falling so short in the reliability department, although I think Mercs have been built down to a price for quite a long time now. As for Land/Range Rover, their reputation for things going wrong has been around for decades - mostly, the owners I know seem to just grin and point out that their engines are burst-proof, but that the expensive failures happen mainly in the electronics department. So that's all right then.....

I haven't got access to the Which report, but I'd be interested to hear how these reliability indices are calculated. Are they rated in terms of the repair costs when things go wrong? Or in terms of how likely the car is to leave you stranded by the roadside, which is surely what really matters?

I once knew somebody who bought one of the more expensive Alfas, brand new, for no better reason (he said) that it simply looked better in the executive car park when everyone else had turned up to the meetings in "mere Mercedes". Mind, you, he added. the superior pose value was offset by the annoying regularity with which he failed to turn up at all. :lol:

BJ

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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335302

Postby richlist » August 23rd, 2020, 5:44 pm

Lanark wrote:All electric cars are vastly more expensive with terrible depreciation and hybrids have twice as many things to go wrong.



But that doesn't matter at all to many, possibly most new car buyers. Most car sales are through PCP so all that matters to most people is how much they have to pay each month.......cost of the car, depreciation etc is of no concern or consideration.

Redmires
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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335306

Postby Redmires » August 23rd, 2020, 6:20 pm

richlist wrote:
Lanark wrote:All electric cars are vastly more expensive with terrible depreciation and hybrids have twice as many things to go wrong.



But that doesn't matter at all to many, possibly most new car buyers. Most car sales are through PCP so all that matters to most people is how much they have to pay each month.......cost of the car, depreciation etc is of no concern or consideration.


I've had several hybrids in the last 12 years and never had a problem with any of them. They have all been Japanese/Korean though. Cheap to run and maintain. The last 'normal' car I had was a Nissan Qashqai (2007). Terrible reliability which put me off the brand for life.

dealtn
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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335316

Postby dealtn » August 23rd, 2020, 6:58 pm

richlist wrote:
Lanark wrote:All electric cars are vastly more expensive with terrible depreciation and hybrids have twice as many things to go wrong.



But that doesn't matter at all to many, possibly most new car buyers. Most car sales are through PCP so all that matters to most people is how much they have to pay each month.......cost of the car, depreciation etc is of no concern or consideration.


Except that the sale price and depreciation are key inputs into the pricing model for PCP.

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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335321

Postby richlist » August 23rd, 2020, 7:21 pm

But it's of absolutely no concern to the end user any more than the cost of a replacement battery would be.
With a move to 2 year service intervals and zero deposit ALL that matters is how low the monthly cost can be.

Sale price and depreciation are the manufacturers concern.......In 2 years time the car will be handed back and a replacement ordered.

richlist
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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335325

Postby richlist » August 23rd, 2020, 7:43 pm

Car reliability is only an issue if the owner has to arrange a repair himself or be without a vehicle whilst it's being fixed.

If the car is new then it's fixed under warranty and a replacement provided in the meantime all at nil cost to the end user.

Reliability, the cost of repairing it and the time and effort expended in sorting it out is ultimately with the dealer/ manufacturer and impacts their profitability.

dealtn
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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335426

Postby dealtn » August 24th, 2020, 10:09 am

richlist wrote:But it's of absolutely no concern to the end user any more than the cost of a replacement battery would be.
With a move to 2 year service intervals and zero deposit ALL that matters is how low the monthly cost can be.

Sale price and depreciation are the manufacturers concern.......In 2 years time the car will be handed back and a replacement ordered.


Either you don't know what ALL means or you fail to grasp that "how low the monthly cost can be" is partly determined by the original cost and the likely depreciation.

A more expensive car, and a car with greater depreciation, will both have a higher "monthly cost" than alternatives.

tsr2
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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335601

Postby tsr2 » August 24th, 2020, 7:35 pm

Lanark wrote:All electric cars are vastly more expensive with terrible depreciation and hybrids have twice as many things to go wrong.

Really?
I don't have sources to quote, but my impression was that depreciation on electric cars was significantly lower than on fossil fuel cars. Similarly, there is much less to go wrong on an electric vehicle and they are supposed to be correspondingly more reliable.

Midsmartin
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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335622

Postby Midsmartin » August 24th, 2020, 8:42 pm

I suspect that depreciation on electric cars from some years ago with lowish range has been fearsome, as newer models offer much more attractive ranges. As range and also battery life improves, resale value probably stays up a bit longer.

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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335625

Postby Howard » August 24th, 2020, 9:07 pm

One can get a good idea of the depreciation and reliability of cars by looking at the personal contract hire leasing cost. I know a lot of people don’t want to lease, and don’t want a new car, but it is a good guide to the overall cost of owning a new or nearly new car for a few years.

The companies who finance car leases know a lot about the costs of running cars, much more than the average motorist. The bigger leasing companies are literally financing the purchase of thousands of cars a month. And when I’ve had a casual look at the independent firms, they are pretty profitable. Many manufacturers have leasing operations as well.

Just concentrating on the cost of lease agreements where one has to hand the car back after say 2,3 or 4 years and there is generally no opportunity to purchase the vehicle will give a very good indication of future values. (These costs don't include fuel or insurance).

Leasing costs indicate that fully electric vehicles do depreciate more than ICE vehicles at the moment. Hybrids appear to depreciate less. Toyota hybrids are a good example of cars which have lower leasing costs.

Leasing.com is a good place to check the costs. I’m biased, but German brands tend to be cheaper to lease because maybe they hold their value more. (At least the “sensible” versions do). :)

You can do your own research. But from that site examples of leasing costs of basic models are:

Monthly cost for 6 +35 months and a maximum mileage of 10,000 miles a year.

Toyota Corolla Icon 5 dr Hatchback hybrid £221
VW Golf diesel 5 dr Hatchback £246
Nissan Leaf Accenta BEV £264
BMW 320i MSport auto £315
Kia e Niro BEV £330
Mercedes E220d SE 4dr 9G-Tronic £385
Tesla Model 3 Standard Range BEV £483

Regards

Howard

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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335634

Postby richlist » August 24th, 2020, 9:44 pm

dealtn wrote:
richlist wrote:But it's of absolutely no concern to the end user any more than the cost of a replacement battery would be.
With a move to 2 year service intervals and zero deposit ALL that matters is how low the monthly cost can be.

Sale price and depreciation are the manufacturers concern.......In 2 years time the car will be handed back and a replacement ordered.


Either you don't know what ALL means or you fail to grasp that "how low the monthly cost can be" is partly determined by the original cost and the likely depreciation.

A more expensive car, and a car with greater depreciation, will both have a higher "monthly cost" than alternatives.


I'm not disagreeing with you but the decision process for most people is.......do I like the car, does it meet my needs, how much is it per month. Oh, its £230 a month for 26 months, I can afford that, then I'll have it.

They don't think about original/ cash price, depreciation or any of the other factors used to determine the pricing structure.

tsr2
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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335742

Postby tsr2 » August 25th, 2020, 10:58 am

Howard wrote:VW Golf diesel 5 dr Hatchback £246
Nissan Leaf Accenta BEV £264


A basic Golf Diesel is around £21,145 OTR. The Nissan Leaf Acenta starts from £26,845, so the list price is 27% more for the Leaf, but the lease price is only 7% more, indicating to me that the other costs (mainly depreciation?) are much less for the Leaf. Once you factor in the reduced fuel costs the Leaf appears cheaper overall.

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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335760

Postby Howard » August 25th, 2020, 11:39 am

tsr2 wrote:
Howard wrote:VW Golf diesel 5 dr Hatchback £246
Nissan Leaf Accenta BEV £264


A basic Golf Diesel is around £21,145 OTR. The Nissan Leaf Acenta starts from £26,845, so the list price is 27% more for the Leaf, but the lease price is only 7% more, indicating to me that the other costs (mainly depreciation?) are much less for the Leaf. Once you factor in the reduced fuel costs the Leaf appears cheaper overall.


Are you quoting a price for an old Golf?

The leasing cost will be for a new model. Just looking at the list price of the basic Golf 8 Life, 6 speed manual diesel Volkswagen rrp is from £24,900.

https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new/golf-8 ... 30300-life

A petrol model is slightly cheaper, but so is the rental cost.

And there is no doubt that an electric car should be cheaper to run. But this cost is excluded from the Leasing costs I quoted, as we were discussing depreciation costs etc.

So, yes the difference is around 9%?.

regards

Howard

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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335771

Postby Howard » August 25th, 2020, 12:09 pm

Further to my above post. I've checked today's leasing cost on the Golf model I quoted above and it is a little more than my earlier example. So to be accurate, it would cost £253 a month to rent.

Leasing costs do vary, literally by the day, depending on manufacturers' promotions, and the occasional offer for a car in stock.

And I see that the Leaf leasing price I quoted was for a car with the outdated 6.6 kw charger. To get the latest model with a 7 kw charger would cost £276 a month.

It's all very complicated :? .

regards

Howard

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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335777

Postby tsr2 » August 25th, 2020, 12:34 pm

Howard wrote:Are you quoting a price for an old Golf?


The price list I looked at just said Golf, effective 1st May 2020. As I'm not a Golf afficionado, I can't say for sure, but I think it's the Golf 7.5. I also quoted the cheapest petrol option, not the cheapest diesel.

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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335793

Postby Mike4 » August 25th, 2020, 1:10 pm

Midsmartin wrote:I suspect that depreciation on electric cars from some years ago with lowish range has been fearsome, as newer models offer much more attractive ranges. As range and also battery life improves, resale value probably stays up a bit longer.


Electric cars as I understand them, suffer from a unique problem regarding depreciation. The battery loses capacity with age and use and when it needs replacing, a bill of £7k is, I think, typical for a new one. This must really mess with the calculations one carries out assessing future value.

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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#335809

Postby tsr2 » August 25th, 2020, 2:14 pm

Mike4 wrote:Electric cars as I understand them, suffer from a unique problem regarding depreciation. The battery loses capacity with age and use and when it needs replacing, a bill of £7k is, I think, typical for a new one. This must really mess with the calculations one carries out assessing future value.


As I understand it loss of capacity is less of a problem than many assume. Obviously it may vary, but modern batteries, with active temperature management would be expected to last as long or longer than the chassis. Nissan Leafs don't have active temperature management and have had a higher rate of failure in extreme conditions than other vehicles.

There's an electric taxi company in the US that has run Teslas to very high mileages without battery issues. Lexus have just announced a 1,000,000 km battery warranty, so I think the assumption that batteries won't last is largely misplaced, but DYOR. I don't have solid data to back this up, but I think it's out there if you know where to look.

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Re: WHICH? car reliability survey

#346455

Postby tsr2 » October 9th, 2020, 1:35 pm

Mike4 wrote:Electric cars as I understand them, suffer from a unique problem regarding depreciation. The battery loses capacity with age and use and when it needs replacing, a bill of £7k is, I think, typical for a new one. This must really mess with the calculations one carries out assessing future value.


I have now seen the actual survey and one item in the survey is battery degradation in electric cars. Which found that after 5 years, on average, capacity was 95% of the original capacity, so degradation was only 5%. Degradation of 1% per year seems likely to have minimal impact on depreciation.


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