hybrid or not to hybrid

[Mike4]

It depends what you call marginal I suppose:



https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/21449238/tesla-electric-car-battery-tabless-cells-day-elon-musk

RC

None of that makes any sense to me. Claiming five times the energy capacity by fiddling with the connections seems unlikely, but claiming this makes the battery six times more powerful illustrates technical illiteracy on the part of the author. Firstly dimensional analysis is ignored, and secondly LiFePO4 batteries already have approaching zero internal resistance so can deliver power (the integral of energy) in megaWatts when attached to a suitable load, don'tcher think? Finally, I'd have thought the five-fold increase in battery capacity as stated would deliver a five-fold increase in range, not just an extra 16%.

So, I think the improvement in the connections is more likely to be bringing a 16% improvement. Granted more than marginal, but it's hardly "new battery technology" that will free us from the need to charge every 300 miles or thereabouts, yet.

The 16% range increase being mentioned in these posts are from "cell design" only. The other improvements announced make a total of 54% range increase as you can see in the diagram from the Battery day presentation. More important to me is the 56% cost reduction. Maybe they can put a bit of that cash into quality improvements...

Notwithstanding all this, Tesla are still making incremental changes to wring better performance and lower costs from existing battery technology (LiFePO4) as opposed to implementing a new battery technology, e.g. aluminium air or something else that hasn't been around already for 30 years - which is the statement I was taking issue with.

[jackdaww]

Im going full V8 diesel next time. Second hand, theyre cheap as chips And hundreds of miles of worry free range.

=====================

fine , as long as you dont detest diesel , as i do.

[jackdaww]

I have wanted a electric car for over 16 years, but there were issues during most of that time.

Only one issue remains for me.That my son will soon be learning to dive and electric or hybrid cars are automatic.
If we consider petrol/diesel/hybrid V battery you are trading increased maintenance costs and at least statistically reliability for very large range*.

The internal combustion engine has a very large number of moving parts and yet more expensive parts in the exhaust system. Gas recirculation, lambder sensors, turbo's catalists.. the list goes on.

Many know of someone who had a Cam belt snap and needed a new engine.
What of the costs of ignoring the temperature guage? Hint, the wax thermostat locks open so the engine never gets to temperature, which causes the cat to not get to temperature. Hence fouling and requiring it to need replacing. The same can happen with a lamber sensor fails. Or if the gas recirculation fails leading to too much Ox in the exhaust.
The turbo shares the same lubrication as the engine oil, which stops flowing when you turn the engine off. Turbos fail more often if you regularly drive hard, then don't allow them to cool down.

There are simply less bits in a EV and those that are likely to go wrong have a fairly well understood life, a bit like the Cam belt but without the damage to other components.

*Well there are exceptions. Ferrari and Koenigsegg make hybrids where performance, rather than range, while complying with emissions is the requirement. The latest Koenigsegg has 1.27MW of power, 3500Nm torque and a 0-100 Km/h (0-62 mph) of 1.9 Sec. I don't think that it has a large fuel tank though and I think that the batteries would get you about 15 miles.

=======================

what is the problem with automatics?

in a few years time there will be no manual gearboxes at all .

cars will be electric or petrol hybrids - no gears needed.

[jackdaww]

there is no magic advantage to hybrids.

the battery has to be charged from somewhere - either the engine or the grid via plugin .

the small savings from regenerative braking are balanced out by the extra battery weight .

however in a few years , there will be little choice -- other than hybrid or electric, all automatic.

i tow a small caravan which rules out pure electric for me on range grounds.

there is already plenty of choice in hybrids, and will be a lot more choice in coming years.

some of these use the 4 stroke atkinsonian engine rather than the otto - i dont understand why yet - DAK?

there is no need for turbo either - it seems engine requirements are different in hybrids.

many of these hybrids have no gears at all , its all electric motor and/or fixed mechanical drive between engine and wheels .

the honda crv is an example .

a very interesting topic.

[Urbandreamer]

what is the problem with automatics?

in a few years time there will be no manual gearboxes at all .

cars will be electric or petrol hybrids - no gears needed.

It's obviously some time since you took a UK driving test or considered UK driving licenses*. If you learn and take your test on an automatic, then you will need to retake it again if you wish to drive a manual transmission. The converse is not true.

You may be right about what will happen in a "few years". I doubt that it would be right to predict that taking an "automatics only" test next year won't limit the choice of older cars in the following few years.

Hence the fact that my son will be learning to drive soon, as I said, is the only reason remaining that prevents me indulging myself and changing to a Bev.

*Mine covers cars automatic or manual, mopeds, light trucks with or without trailers, caravans, minibusses with or without trailers. But then I'm old enough that most of that didn't require a seperate licence/test when I qualified.

[jackdaww]

what is the problem with automatics?

in a few years time there will be no manual gearboxes at all .

cars will be electric or petrol hybrids - no gears needed.

It's obviously some time since you took a UK driving test or considered UK driving licenses*. If you learn and take your test on an automatic, then you will need to retake it again if you wish to drive a manual transmission. The converse is not true.

You may be right about what will happen in a "few years". I doubt that it would be right to predict that taking an "automatics only" test next year won't limit the choice of older cars in the following few years.

Hence the fact that my son will be learning to drive soon, as I said, is the only reason remaining that prevents me indulging myself and changing to a Bev.

*Mine covers cars automatic or manual, mopeds, light trucks with or without trailers, caravans, minibusses with or without trailers. But then I'm old enough that most of that didn't require a seperate licence/test when I qualified.

==========================

i took my test over 60 years ago , and yes , i did know an auto pass is not valid for a manual.

but the question remains , what is the problem/issue with automatics please ?

[nmdhqbc]

Notwithstanding all this, Tesla are still making incremental changes to wring better performance and lower costs from existing battery technology (LiFePO4) as opposed to implementing a new battery technology, e.g. aluminium air or something else that hasn't been around already for 30 years - which is the statement I was taking issue with.

OK, well I'd not categorize a 54% range increase and 56% cost reduction as incremental. But these recently announced batteries do not have to be in production for 50 years. The next generation solid state or whatever it might be will take a while and this jump (54% increment) is great for the interim.

By the way I think LiFePO4 is not the chemistry in most electric cars at the moment. Tesla will be using it in some cars going forward but have not up to now. Apparently it's not as energy dense as the one they use now. I don't know all the ins ands out (like the actual chemistry they use now) but I know this much...
https://electrek.co/2020/05/25/tesla-mo ... batteries/

[kiloran]

I think the main benefit of a hybrid is if you frequently make longer trips that may cause range/recharging issues with pure electric, but want to be environmentally friendly and use electric power when in towns or heavy stop-start traffic.

--kiloran

[Urbandreamer]

In fact I suggested on here that a gas turbine engine as the electricity generator would be even better. Ok the exhaust temperatures would be...errr...difficult to manage but, again, a large US carmaker made one in the 50's or 60's.

Would that have been Rover?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 516271.stm

I believe that Jaguar experimented with your suggestion.
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/jet-power ... ne-hybrid/

[jackdaww]

i always thought the diesel-electric (or petrol-electric), as with the Chevvy Volt or Top Gears Hammerhead iThrust would take off but they never really did.

I mean it removes range anxiety, is fairly simple with a small diesel or electric generator (no gearbox or fancy valve gear required etc) directly charging a smaller battery pack when required. Diesel generators are remarkably efficient and will go for hours on a half a cup of fuel.

In fact I suggested on here that a gas turbine engine as the electricity generator would be even better. Ok the exhaust temperatures would be...errr...difficult to manage but, again, a large US carmaker made one in the 50's or 60's.

Or maybe they have been built, but have been given an acronym that I haven't deciphered yet.

======================

there was a rover gas turbine powered car in the 50's , which did not succeed .

gas turbine railway locomotive have been tried without success

i think gas turbines are only efficient when running close to full power.

[DrFfybes]

i took my test over 60 years ago , and yes , i did know an auto pass is not valid for a manual.

but the question remains , what is the problem/issue with automatics please ?

No problem with autos. However I've yet to find a van hire place that supplies them.

Of course this will eventually change, but for a 20-odd year old moving flats then not being able to hire a van could be an issue.

It's obviously some time since you took a UK driving test or considered UK driving licenses*.

Is there such a thing

FWIW I had to learn the difference between 'practice' and 'practise' when learning French. With 'ice' endings the Noun is C and the Verb is S, remembered as noun comes before verb in the dictionary as licence comes before license. So a Doctor practises medicine at a medical Practice.

If you think that is confusing, remember that the Americans use LicenSe, but PractiCe as both the noun and verb. Then again they also have smaller pints.

Paul

[swill453]

If you think that is confusing, remember that the Americans use LicenSe, but PractiCe as both the noun and verb.

That usually means we used to do it that way ourselves, and what we do now is a modern affectation.

Scott.

[Urbandreamer]

It's obviously some time since you took a UK driving test or considered UK driving licenses*.

Is there such a thing

Paul

Not that again

At work we issue a licence to our product. I am repeatedly told that it should be license, which is I understand the english verb. As in we license the product.
However in the US license is both verb and noun. Hence what is done is issuing a license.

So which spelling would you demand for the plural of a document that allows people to drive? Is it a noun or a verb plural?

This is from a dyslexic who finds the entire issue a real pain.

[MaraMan]

Just driven back 30 miles, back from a round of golf with my mate, in my Toyota hybrid. Very quiet and comfortable and averaged over 60 miles to the gallon. I know it's not foolish to buy new cars but we like them and enjoy them.
MM

[Redmires]

Looks like no one will stick up for the hybrid so here goes. I've been driving them for the last 13 years and wouldn't be without one. They were all the non-plugin variety so didn't have to faff about with charging etc. I've had Toyota x 2, Honda, Lexus, Kia and currently a Hyundai - and haven't had a single issue with any of them. Why do I like them ? Until recently they were work horses and I wanted an automatic, good MPG (60 - 70mpg) and excellent reliability and hybrids fitted the bill perfectly. I used to drive around 20k miles per year and claimed a car & mileage allowance, the better the MPG, the more money in my pocket. Diesels .... no thanks, never liked them (and I had a few). All the previous hybrids were lease cars, the Hyundai was a used 18 month old car. Two years later it still drives like new and apart from servicing and a couple of tyres, I haven't spent a penny on it. I no longer work so I'll probably run this one into the ground.

R.

PS. My last 'normal' car was a new diesel Qashqai (57 plate) that was never out of the garage. A heap of garbage that put me off the brand for life.

[jackdaww]

Looks like no one will stick up for the hybrid so here goes. I've been driving them for the last 13 years and wouldn't be without one. They were all the non-plugin variety so didn't have to faff about with charging etc. I've had Toyota x 2, Honda, Lexus, Kia and currently a Hyundai - and haven't had a single issue with any of them. Why do I like them ? Until recently they were work horses and I wanted an automatic, good MPG (60 - 70mpg) and excellent reliability and hybrids fitted the bill perfectly. I used to drive around 20k miles per year and claimed a car & mileage allowance, the better the MPG, the more money in my pocket. Diesels .... no thanks, never liked them (and I had a few). All the previous hybrids were lease cars, the Hyundai was a used 18 month old car. Two years later it still drives like new and apart from servicing and a couple of tyres, I haven't spent a penny on it. I no longer work so I'll probably run this one into the ground.

R.

PS. My last 'normal' car was a new diesel Qashqai (57 plate) that was never out of the garage. A heap of garbage that put me off the brand for life.

=============================

agree on diesels and nissan.

hybrids do seem to be very reliable , which to me is a very big factor.

but i dont understand where all this magically better fuel consumption comes from .

DAK please ?

------------------

[servodude]

Looks like no one will stick up for the hybrid so here goes. I've been driving them for the last 13 years and wouldn't be without one. They were all the non-plugin variety so didn't have to faff about with charging etc. I've had Toyota x 2, Honda, Lexus, Kia and currently a Hyundai - and haven't had a single issue with any of them. Why do I like them ? Until recently they were work horses and I wanted an automatic, good MPG (60 - 70mpg) and excellent reliability and hybrids fitted the bill perfectly. I used to drive around 20k miles per year and claimed a car & mileage allowance, the better the MPG, the more money in my pocket. Diesels .... no thanks, never liked them (and I had a few). All the previous hybrids were lease cars, the Hyundai was a used 18 month old car. Two years later it still drives like new and apart from servicing and a couple of tyres, I haven't spent a penny on it. I no longer work so I'll probably run this one into the ground.

R.

PS. My last 'normal' car was a new diesel Qashqai (57 plate) that was never out of the garage. A heap of garbage that put me off the brand for life.

=============================

agree on diesels and nissan.

hybrids do seem to be very reliable , which to me is a very big factor.

but i dont understand where all this magically better fuel consumption comes from .

DAK please ?

------------------

Think of the ICE in a hybrid as a genset charging the battery.
Your motor efficiency curves go from being info to your operating point
-sd

[Urbandreamer]

but i dont understand where all this magically better fuel consumption comes from .

DAK please ?

Well yes, and it isn't magic.

As someone has already pointed out, generators can be very efficient, car engines.... not so much.

Petrol heads will know of something called the power curve. It can be adjusted by changing valve lift and timing, but basically the engine produces peak power at a given rpm. There is a similar curve for the efficiency.

Series hybrids, ones where the IC is not connected to the wheels could be set up to only run the IC at peak efficiency. Unfortunately there are serious reliability issues with working that way, and losses in the charging circuit.

The modern trend is parrallel hybrids, where both IC and electric motor drive the wheels. Torque to accelerate can be provided by the electric motor so a less powerful IC can be used if mpg is the objective. Hence the saving in fuel consumption. The energy to decelerate can be captured and re-used to accelerate, as is done in F1 cars (KERS). Yes F1 cars ARE hybrids and have been since 2009! I understand that using less fuel means less time spent refueling hence the reason they are all hybrids.

Of course the saving is very much dependent upon how much acceleration and deceleration you do. Hence their advantages are greater around town than on the motorway.

Some years ago Top Gear took advantage of these facts to design a test showing that the prius got worse mpg than a "similar" IC car by picking a speed such that the IC in the prius was constantly running at an inefficent rpm while the competition it's most efficent.

[jackdaww]

Looks like no one will stick up for the hybrid so here goes. I've been driving them for the last 13 years and wouldn't be without one. They were all the non-plugin variety so didn't have to faff about with charging etc. I've had Toyota x 2, Honda, Lexus, Kia and currently a Hyundai - and haven't had a single issue with any of them. Why do I like them ? Until recently they were work horses and I wanted an automatic, good MPG (60 - 70mpg) and excellent reliability and hybrids fitted the bill perfectly. I used to drive around 20k miles per year and claimed a car & mileage allowance, the better the MPG, the more money in my pocket. Diesels .... no thanks, never liked them (and I had a few). All the previous hybrids were lease cars, the Hyundai was a used 18 month old car. Two years later it still drives like new and apart from servicing and a couple of tyres, I haven't spent a penny on it. I no longer work so I'll probably run this one into the ground.

R.

PS. My last 'normal' car was a new diesel Qashqai (57 plate) that was never out of the garage. A heap of garbage that put me off the brand for life.

=============================

agree on diesels and nissan.

hybrids do seem to be very reliable , which to me is a very big factor.

but i dont understand where all this magically better fuel consumption comes from .

DAK please ?

------------------

Think of the ICE in a hybrid as a genset charging the battery.
Your motor efficiency curves go from being info to your operating point
-sd

================================

i understand the ICEngine charging the battery via a generator.

dont understand the rest - is it typo or jargon ?

[jackdaww]

but i dont understand where all this magically better fuel consumption comes from .

DAK please ?

Well yes, and it isn't magic.

As someone has already pointed out, generators can be very efficient, car engines.... not so much.

Petrol heads will know of something called the power curve. It can be adjusted by changing valve lift and timing, but basically the engine produces peak power at a given rpm. There is a similar curve for the efficiency.

Series hybrids, ones where the IC is not connected to the wheels could be set up to only run the IC at peak efficiency. Unfortunately there are serious reliability issues with working that way, and losses in the charging circuit.

The modern trend is parrallel hybrids, where both IC and electric motor drive the wheels. Torque to accelerate can be provided by the electric motor so a less powerful IC can be used if mpg is the objective. Hence the saving in fuel consumption. The energy to decelerate can be captured and re-used to accelerate, as is done in F1 cars (KERS). Yes F1 cars ARE hybrids and have been since 2009! I understand that using less fuel means less time spent refueling hence the reason they are all hybrids.

Of course the saving is very much dependent upon how much acceleration and deceleration you do. Hence their advantages are greater around town than on the motorway.

Some years ago Top Gear took advantage of these facts to design a test showing that the prius got worse mpg than a "similar" IC car by picking a speed such that the IC in the prius was constantly running at an inefficent rpm while the competition it's most efficent.

===============================

so the savings come from --

1. smaller engine needed .

but that smaller engine has extra work to do charging the battery. - battery power doesnt come from thin air .

2. the engine can run more often at its optimum efficiency .

yes , that makes sense.

3. regenerative braking charges the battery for free.

yes , but i suspect the extra weight of the battery , generators and motors negate that .

so if i am correct in the above , which i very well may not be , the only gain is from 2.

also ,where does the atkinsonian engine fit in , are they more efficient ?

i am very pro hybrids , i just want to understand things.