hybrid or not to hybrid

[jackdaww]

....of course, you could always buy a second hand Nissan Leaf (or similar) and install your own portable generator. I'm sure someone with the correct know how would even be able to permanently wire it in for you.

I am a genius.

==================================

quite brilliant , with 2 minor drawbacks , as kryten would say --

1. illegal and MOT fail.

2. ...............................

[servodude]

....of course, you could always buy a second hand Nissan Leaf (or similar) and install your own portable generator. I'm sure someone with the correct know how would even be able to permanently wire it in for you.

I am a genius.

==================================

quite brilliant , with 2 minor drawbacks , as kryten would say --

1. illegal and MOT fail.

2. ...............................

There's nothing that stops you from transporting a generator in the boot of a plug in electric
- if ICE engines go completely by the wayside I can see this a a solution for an electric outback ute
- where at the minute you might carry jerry cans because your hilux hasn't the range

-sd

[jackdaww]

....of course, you could always buy a second hand Nissan Leaf (or similar) and install your own portable generator. I'm sure someone with the correct know how would even be able to permanently wire it in for you.

I am a genius.

==================================

quite brilliant , with 2 minor drawbacks , as kryten would say --

1. illegal and MOT fail.

2. ...............................

There's nothing that stops you from transporting a generator in the boot of a plug in electric
- if ICE engines go completely by the wayside I can see this a a solution for an electric outback ute
- where at the minute you might carry jerry cans because your hilux hasn't the range

-sd

===============================

yes , but can you be running the generator while on the move ?

perhaps ok while stationery until more charging points materialise .

[swill453]

There's nothing that stops you from transporting a generator in the boot of a plug in electric
- if ICE engines go completely by the wayside I can see this a a solution for an electric outback ute
- where at the minute you might carry jerry cans because your hilux hasn't the range

Connect the motor in the generator to the gearbox and cut out the (inefficient) middle man. Maybe make the motor a bit bigger. Then ditch the electric motor and battery to save weight.



Scott.

[Urbandreamer]

so the savings come from --

1. smaller engine needed .

but that smaller engine has extra work to do charging the battery. - battery power doesnt come from thin air .

2. the engine can run more often at its optimum efficiency .

yes , that makes sense.

3. regenerative braking charges the battery for free.

yes , but i suspect the extra weight of the battery , generators and motors negate that .

so if i am correct in the above , which i very well may not be , the only gain is from 2.

also ,where does the atkinsonian engine fit in , are they more efficient ?

i am very pro hybrids , i just want to understand things.

Well, as you suspect, you are not right on all of them.

1) Smaller/larger engines is not too helpful a term, which is why I used less powerful. IF it was as simple as fitting a smaller engine AND you didn't have the extra weight THEN the savings would be huge. But that really would be magic. To some degree it is achieved by fitting turbochargers to make smaller (lighter) engines more powerful. Make the entire thing lighter and the mpg goes up.

No the saving by fitting a less powerful engine is that engines that run on a fraction of their rated power are hugely inefficient. By getting the extra power that you need from somewhere else you can fit a less powerful engine, but run it more efficiently as chargeing pushes it up the efficency curve.

2) as said.

3) well if it really were wrong, why wouldn't it be wrong for F1 cars too? Have they some magic? Or do they work in the same world.

Re atkinsonian engine. I had to look it up. However to achieve the flexibility demanded the IC to both run akinsonian and optimised for power has to be quite complex. It also doesn't make sense for the way that we drive, unless it's fitted to a hybrid.

I mentioned valve lift and timing. Some manufacturers achive variable valve lift or timing by adjusting the Cam. It's modestly complicated and less than ideal. Reliabilty also probably reduces.

Some F1 teams experimented with a far more complicated system, which I believe was banned. However nothing bans it from road cars, so it's used by Koeninsegg. The term to search for is Camless or Freevalve.
https://www.autoweek.com/news/technolog ... democracy/
HOWEVER, and it's a big one this. It's complex and may have reliability issues and will certainly not be cheap.

[servodude]

There's nothing that stops you from transporting a generator in the boot of a plug in electric
- if ICE engines go completely by the wayside I can see this a a solution for an electric outback ute
- where at the minute you might carry jerry cans because your hilux hasn't the range

Connect the motor in the generator to the gearbox and cut out the (inefficient) middle man. Maybe make the motor a bit bigger. Then ditch the electric motor and battery to save weight.



Scott.

Yes it's a bit of an edge case
- but having been on jobs (installing solar telemetry for irrigation gensets so it would happen) where you can't get between bowsers on a tank of a normal vehicle there's understandably a hunt for an interim solution

- sd

[Urbandreamer]

3. regenerative braking charges the battery for free.

yes , but i suspect the extra weight of the battery , generators and motors negate that .

I think that I'll try and explain this again.

A 1970's car is hurtling towards a bend and has to slow down to get around. The kinetic energy is converted to heat in the brakes and dumped.
The same car then burns a significant amount of fuel in the heat engine it uses to regain that kinetic energy.

If we could capture 100% of the kinetic energy and release it after the bend, any change in the weight of the car would have no effect. Or rather, more energy would be captured and then released.

In practice we don't get 100%, but we get enough to make a difference.

[jackdaww]

3. regenerative braking charges the battery for free.

yes , but i suspect the extra weight of the battery , generators and motors negate that .

I think that I'll try and explain this again.

A 1970's car is hurtling towards a bend and has to slow down to get around. The kinetic energy is converted to heat in the brakes and dumped.
The same car then burns a significant amount of fuel in the heat engine it uses to regain that kinetic energy.

If we could capture 100% of the kinetic energy and release it after the bend, any change in the weight of the car would have no effect. Or rather, more energy would be captured and then released.

In practice we don't get 100%, but we get enough to make a difference.

===================================

i am considering the extra weight the car transports around ALL THE TIME .

what is the significance of your example car being 1970's ?

[jackdaww]

There's nothing that stops you from transporting a generator in the boot of a plug in electric
- if ICE engines go completely by the wayside I can see this a a solution for an electric outback ute
- where at the minute you might carry jerry cans because your hilux hasn't the range

Connect the motor in the generator to the gearbox and cut out the (inefficient) middle man. Maybe make the motor a bit bigger. Then ditch the electric motor and battery to save weight.



Scott.

[jackdaww]

Looks like no one will stick up for the hybrid so here goes. I've been driving them for the last 13 years and wouldn't be without one. They were all the non-plugin variety so didn't have to faff about with charging etc. I've had Toyota x 2, Honda, Lexus, Kia and currently a Hyundai - and haven't had a single issue with any of them. Why do I like them ? Until recently they were work horses and I wanted an automatic, good MPG (60 - 70mpg) and excellent reliability and hybrids fitted the bill perfectly. I used to drive around 20k miles per year and claimed a car & mileage allowance, the better the MPG, the more money in my pocket. Diesels .... no thanks, never liked them (and I had a few). All the previous hybrids were lease cars, the Hyundai was a used 18 month old car. Two years later it still drives like new and apart from servicing and a couple of tyres, I haven't spent a penny on it. I no longer work so I'll probably run this one into the ground.

R.

.

===========

ive looked at published combined mpg figures for several hybrids

a generous average figure is 55mpg , so as its widely accepted that manufacturers figures are derived under perfectly unachieveable conditions - i will take it as 50 mpg .

so i dont think you will get your 60-70mpg .

by the way , i think 50 mpg is good , my qashqai 1.2digt does around 40mpg , with an elderly , cautious driver who is in no hurry .

[Urbandreamer]

ive looked at published combined mpg figures for several hybrids

Try this link.
https://www.nextgreencar.com/mpg/best-mpg-cars/hybrid/

Top ones are coming in with a real, rather than quoted mpg above 60mpg.

Re weight at all times. Weight effects acceleration and deceleration, as in my examples. In theory it should effect rolling resistance, but there are no studys as rolling resistance is dwarfed by other factors (aerodynamics, tyres etc).

Re 1970's, it was a simpler era. When powerful engine's meant large and muscle cars were heavy.

[tjh290633]

ive looked at published combined mpg figures for several hybrids

Try this link.
https://www.nextgreencar.com/mpg/best-mpg-cars/hybrid/

Top ones are coming in with a real, rather than quoted mpg above 60mpg.

Re weight at all times. Weight effects acceleration and deceleration, as in my examples. In theory it should effect rolling resistance, but there are no studys as rolling resistance is dwarfed by other factors (aerodynamics, tyres etc).

Re 1970's, it was a simpler era. When powerful engine's meant large and muscle cars were heavy.

I do not understand how a hybrid car on a long motorway journey, at a steady speed (let's say 70mph) can give any different fuel consumption from a conventional car on the same journey.

I find in my conventional car (A Suzuki SX4 S-Cross 1.3 litre) that my experience since lockdown has been interesting. When I was merely travelling to and from the local supermarket, a journey of 3 miles each way on country lanes and a 40mph section, I was getting an alleged 55mpg on the onboard computer. In terms of tank full to tank full, I got successive measurements of 48.3 and 47.3mpg respectively. On a recent long trip, mostly on motorways, I got 45.5mpg brimfull to brimfull. The onboard computer claimed 50mpg. Without much hard braking, and gradients which still call for some power on the downhill sections to maintain speed, there is little scope for regeneration.

Where does this extra economy come from?

TJH

[MaraMan]

ive looked at published combined mpg figures for several hybrids

Try this link.
https://www.nextgreencar.com/mpg/best-mpg-cars/hybrid/

Top ones are coming in with a real, rather than quoted mpg above 60mpg.

Re weight at all times. Weight effects acceleration and deceleration, as in my examples. In theory it should effect rolling resistance, but there are no studys as rolling resistance is dwarfed by other factors (aerodynamics, tyres etc).

Re 1970's, it was a simpler era. When powerful engine's meant large and muscle cars were heavy.

I do not understand how a hybrid car on a long motorway journey, at a steady speed (let's say 70mph) can give any different fuel consumption from a conventional car on the same journey.

I find in my conventional car (A Suzuki SX4 S-Cross 1.3 litre) that my experience since lockdown has been interesting. When I was merely travelling to and from the local supermarket, a journey of 3 miles each way on country lanes and a 40mph section, I was getting an alleged 55mpg on the onboard computer. In terms of tank full to tank full, I got successive measurements of 48.3 and 47.3mpg respectively. On a recent long trip, mostly on motorways, I got 45.5mpg brimfull to brimfull. The onboard computer claimed 50mpg. Without much hard braking, and gradients which still call for some power on the downhill sections to maintain speed, there is little scope for regeneration.

Where does this extra economy come from?

TJH

In my experience it comes when on a flat and on any down hill it will run in ev to the extent that batteries will allow. It then gently charges the batts. There is a way to drive hybrids which seems to get best results, accelerate reasonably hard and then ease off on the power. Constantly chugging along doesnt get the same results. Our average in the last 1,500 miles in our Toyota Hybrid is 57 mpg, but we do have the "sporty" 2 litre engine, which they say gives 10% lower MPG (but is much more fun to drive).

As per my last message driving home yesterday, which included the total length of the M23, I got 60.7 mpg.

MM

[Urbandreamer]

All this talk of hybrids and mpg!

Ok here is a suggestion:

Charge your plug in hybrid or go for a Bev. The first will increase your mpg, because you will be using wind turbine power for part of the trip. The latter does not consume petrol at all.

Ok I'm sure someone will point out that as not all electricity is "green" it's not quite that simple. However it IS that simple if you only talk mpg.

FWIW, as I said, I'd like a Bev. I have established that 99.9% of the time the range would be ok and I could hire a vehicle, take a train or plane for those very odd times.

[jackdaww]

just looking at what interests me --

the honda crv hybrid - manufacturer mpg - barely 40mpg.

toyota rav4 hybrid - 50mpg plus .

a huge difference for very similar vehicles .

DAK why ??

[jackdaww]

ive looked at published combined mpg figures for several hybrids

Try this link.
https://www.nextgreencar.com/mpg/best-mpg-cars/hybrid/

Top ones are coming in with a real, rather than quoted mpg above 60mpg.

Re weight at all times. Weight effects acceleration and deceleration, as in my examples. In theory it should effect rolling resistance, but there are no studys as rolling resistance is dwarfed by other factors (aerodynamics, tyres etc).

Re 1970's, it was a simpler era. When powerful engine's meant large and muscle cars were heavy.

I do not understand how a hybrid car on a long motorway journey, at a steady speed (let's say 70mph) can give any different fuel consumption from a conventional car on the same journey.

I find in my conventional car (A Suzuki SX4 S-Cross 1.3 litre) that my experience since lockdown has been interesting. When I was merely travelling to and from the local supermarket, a journey of 3 miles each way on country lanes and a 40mph section, I was getting an alleged 55mpg on the onboard computer. In terms of tank full to tank full, I got successive measurements of 48.3 and 47.3mpg respectively. On a recent long trip, mostly on motorways, I got 45.5mpg brimfull to brimfull. The onboard computer claimed 50mpg. Without much hard braking, and gradients which still call for some power on the downhill sections to maintain speed, there is little scope for regeneration.

Where does this extra economy come from?

TJH

=========================

i dont think brim to brim is accurate enough - it can be if you do it 3 or 4 times in succession.

i certainly dont take the on board computer figure to be correct either .

but both are better than many of the outrageously wild estimates many people assert .

[Redmires]

ive looked at published combined mpg figures for several hybrids

a generous average figure is 55mpg , so as its widely accepted that manufacturers figures are derived under perfectly unachieveable conditions - i will take it as 50 mpg .

so i dont think you will get your 60-70mpg .

by the way , i think 50 mpg is good , my qashqai 1.2digt does around 40mpg , with an elderly , cautious driver who is in no hurry .

I beg to differ, at least on the newer hybrids, lets call it 54 - 71 mpg then. The Hyundai average surpasses 70mpg and on a 350 mile trip last year it topped 80mpg. As sad as it sounds,I've always had to keep mileage figures for expenses claims etc, which means I have records going back 20 years. Here's the hybrid figures and I've superimposed a graph for the Hyundai, which neatly shows the seasonal mpg over the summer and then the winter. You can see clearly see when lockdown started and commuting ended, followed after a short while by me packing in work for good.



Note:
I get no great pleasure out of driving and try to minimize the costs when ever I can (I think there was a 'hypermiling' board on the old Fool forum). I also own a motor cycle - I don't keep mpg figures for that

[Urbandreamer]

As sad as it sounds,I've always had to keep mileage figures for expenses claims etc, which means I have records going back 20 years.

I'm even more sad and keep the records even though I can't claim expenses. It's taught me a few things over the years. ALWAYS and I do mean always, get a slow puncture fixed as soon as humanly possible. Wait a month and you can pay more than the cost of a cheap tyre in petrol! Brim filling is also a bad idea. You are increasing the weight of the car, hence get worse mpg. Instead I brim fill before long motorway trips, but otherwise only half fill.

IF your odometer is right (which it is supposed to be) then a spreadsheet of mileage against fuel bought gives good average mpg. My old i30 almost entirely used for very short trips (it's a shopping trolly) averages between 36 and 42. It will do in the high 40's to 50 on the few long trips that I have done.

[jackdaww]

ive looked at published combined mpg figures for several hybrids

a generous average figure is 55mpg , so as its widely accepted that manufacturers figures are derived under perfectly unachieveable conditions - i will take it as 50 mpg .

so i dont think you will get your 60-70mpg .

by the way , i think 50 mpg is good , my qashqai 1.2digt does around 40mpg , with an elderly , cautious driver who is in no hurry .

I beg to differ, at least on the newer hybrids, lets call it 54 - 71 mpg then. The Hyundai average surpasses 70mpg and on a 350 mile trip last year it topped 80mpg. As sad as it sounds,I've always had to keep mileage figures for expenses claims etc, which means I have records going back 20 years. Here's the hybrid figures and I've superimposed a graph for the Hyundai, which neatly shows the seasonal mpg over the summer and then the winter. You can see clearly see when lockdown started and commuting ended, followed after a short while by me packing in work for good.



Note:
I get no great pleasure out of driving and try to minimize the costs when ever I can (I think there was a 'hypermiling' board on the old Fool forum). I also own a motor cycle - I don't keep mpg figures for that

============================

how did you calculate these figures ?

[Redmires]

What's with the rolling eyes then ?

The spreadsheet runs to many pages and what is shown are just the totals. I record the mileage and fuel (brim to brim calculation) every time I fill up and produce stats and graphs with the figures. I no longer need to do it but old habits die hard. The 80mpg figure was on the trip computer, which on the Hyundai is actually very accurate, as the figures show. But don't take my word for it.

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/hy ... 016/hybrid

And taking the Niro as an example

1488.07 litres * 0.21997 = 327.33 gallons (1 litres to UK gallons = 0.21997 UK gallons)

19254.8 miles / 327.33 gallons = 58.8 mpg

Ok, it's a little less than calculated brim to brim but within a margin of error of around 2%