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Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

Passion, instruction, buying, care, maintenance and more, any form of vehicle discussion is welcome here
Dod101
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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389225

Postby Dod101 » February 23rd, 2021, 3:37 pm

AF62 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
AF62 wrote:
How much range do you want - Is 200 - 250 miles not enough?


Certainly not if I then have to find a charger and it is not very fast even if I do find one. I can put 60 litres of fuel (range 450 or so miles) in my tank in about 10 minutes all told. I regularly (when not in lockdown obviously) will travel 300/350 miles in one go and of course can do that without even needing to refuel en route.

Dod


Personally I wouldn't feel safe driving 300/350 miles non-stop and prefer to take a cup of coffee break after a 100/150 miles, but I accept everyone is different.


I did not say I drove 300/350 miles non stop. I did not mean by 'one go' as non stop, sorry if I mislead you. I seldom do that but I did say that I cannot be sure of finding any electric charging point and if it will be a fast one. Scotland has few enough petrol stations never mind charging points.

Dod

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389231

Postby dealtn » February 23rd, 2021, 3:54 pm

AF62 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
AF62 wrote:
How much range do you want - Is 200 - 250 miles not enough?


Certainly not if I then have to find a charger and it is not very fast even if I do find one. I can put 60 litres of fuel (range 450 or so miles) in my tank in about 10 minutes all told. I regularly (when not in lockdown obviously) will travel 300/350 miles in one go and of course can do that without even needing to refuel en route.

Dod


Personally I wouldn't feel safe driving 300/350 miles non-stop and prefer to take a cup of coffee break after a 100/150 miles, but I accept everyone is different.


Personally I don't take as long as it takes to recharge a plug-in electric car to drink a cup of tea/coffee. But as you say, everyone is different.

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389233

Postby AF62 » February 23rd, 2021, 4:05 pm

Dod101 wrote:
AF62 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Certainly not if I then have to find a charger and it is not very fast even if I do find one. I can put 60 litres of fuel (range 450 or so miles) in my tank in about 10 minutes all told. I regularly (when not in lockdown obviously) will travel 300/350 miles in one go and of course can do that without even needing to refuel en route.

Dod


Personally I wouldn't feel safe driving 300/350 miles non-stop and prefer to take a cup of coffee break after a 100/150 miles, but I accept everyone is different.


I did not say I drove 300/350 miles non stop. I did not mean by 'one go' as non stop, sorry if I mislead you. I seldom do that but I did say that I cannot be sure of finding any electric charging point and if it will be a fast one. Scotland has few enough petrol stations never mind charging points.

Dod


There seems to be quite a few fast charging points across Scotland Image

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389236

Postby richlist » February 23rd, 2021, 4:07 pm

There doesn't seem to be much difference in the overall cost of a car when you compare buying outright with leasing (pcp) over 3 - 5 years.

I've always bought new cars up to now but feel uncomfortable & uncertain about resale values of both petrol & diesel as we move closer to the 2030 deadline set by the Gov'. Leasing solves the uncertainty of the future resale value and ensures I can get a new car every 3 years when, no doubt, technology will have moved on significantly.

Most of my journeys are under 30 miles. So a PHEV with a 30 mile range in electric mode would see me operating on a battery 90%+ of the time. The down side is that on longer journeys I'd be operating on a petrol engine that would probably achieve less than 40 mpg.

But I've virtually made my mind up.

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389241

Postby syrio » February 23rd, 2021, 4:15 pm

Well I would never buy a new car, and I would never spend 20-30k on a car.

If I was replacing my car today, I'd get another 2nd hand car, probably diesel.

I wouldn't get an electric car as charging it at home would be difficult, and the second hand market for it would be limited.

Dod101
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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389268

Postby Dod101 » February 23rd, 2021, 5:17 pm

Thanks AF62. I had no idea.

Dod

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389276

Postby AF62 » February 23rd, 2021, 5:36 pm

Dod101 wrote:Thanks AF62. I had no idea.

Dod


No problem - I think they have snuck up without people noticing. I 'borrowed' that map from http://www.zap-map.com and filtered so only the fast chargers were showing.

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389289

Postby Mike4 » February 23rd, 2021, 6:05 pm

AF62 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Thanks AF62. I had no idea.

Dod


No problem - I think they have snuck up without people noticing. I 'borrowed' that map from http://www.zap-map.com and filtered so only the fast chargers were showing.


I've heard it said though, that there are five or six different charge point providers and to use any of them one needs to open accounts with all of them. Also, it may not be true but I've also heard there are compatibility problems with the plugs and sockets. E.G. if you have a Tesla you can only charge from a Tesla charging point, and no other brands of car can use Tesla charge points.

Is there any truth in any of these urban rumours or are they just anti-BEV rubbish?

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389293

Postby staffordian » February 23rd, 2021, 6:23 pm

Mike4 wrote:
AF62 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Thanks AF62. I had no idea.

Dod


No problem - I think they have snuck up without people noticing. I 'borrowed' that map from http://www.zap-map.com and filtered so only the fast chargers were showing.


I've heard it said though, that there are five or six different charge point providers and to use any of them one needs to open accounts with all of them. Also, it may not be true but I've also heard there are compatibility problems with the plugs and sockets. E.G. if you have a Tesla you can only charge from a Tesla charging point, and no other brands of car can use Tesla charge points.

Is there any truth in any of these urban rumours or are they just anti-BEV rubbish?

Not to mention that the reliability of some of these chargepoints seems to be questionable. I've read several reports where users have got to a charger only to find it wouldn't accept their (correct!) card, or it accepted the card then wouldn't supply any juice

AF62
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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389297

Postby AF62 » February 23rd, 2021, 6:43 pm

Mike4 wrote:
AF62 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Thanks AF62. I had no idea.

Dod


No problem - I think they have snuck up without people noticing. I 'borrowed' that map from http://www.zap-map.com and filtered so only the fast chargers were showing.


I've heard it said though, that there are five or six different charge point providers and to use any of them one needs to open accounts with all of them. Also, it may not be true but I've also heard there are compatibility problems with the plugs and sockets. E.G. if you have a Tesla you can only charge from a Tesla charging point, and no other brands of car can use Tesla charge points.

Is there any truth in any of these urban rumours or are they just anti-BEV rubbish?


Only Tesla owners can use the Tesla network - Tesla pay for it and sell it as part of the perk of ownership of the car.

There used to be an issue about the type of charging plug, with originally cars from the far-east using CHAdeMO and European cars using Type 2 (Type 1 was only used by very few manufacturers) but the EU required all European cars to have Type 2 so that is what you will find on all new EVs, whether it is a Renault Zoe or a Tesla (although a Tesla will also have a Tesla charging port as well for its dedicated charging network).

In addition there is the CCS port which is a Type 2 port with an additional bit to the Type 2 port. Type 2 will charge at up to 43kW at a public charging point, although 22kW is more common, and can charge at 7.4kW from a single phase home charger. CSS will charge at up to 170kW at a a public charging point, although 50kW is more common.

Having accounts with the different providers isn't usually necessary, but if you do subscribe you will get benefits such as lower or even free charging. For example with BP Pulse with a £7.85 per month subscription you can charge at around 12p to 27p / kWh depending on how fast you want to charge (faster is more expensive) but without the subscription it is around 18p to 42p / kWh.

staffordian wrote:Not to mention that the reliability of some of these chargepoints seems to be questionable. I've read several reports where users have got to a charger only to find it wouldn't accept their (correct!) card, or it accepted the card then wouldn't supply any juice


True, but with the 200-250 mile range on many new EVs then charging whilst out is getting less likely if you have a charger at home, unless you want to take up the offer of companies like Tesco who are installing charging points in their store car parks where you charge at 7.4kW for free (or pay for a faster charge) so for many a subscription isn't necessary. You can charge from a 3 pin plug but it isn't recommended unless an emergency as it would take 24 hours or more to charge to full from empty, whereas a 7.4kW will charge overnight.

On the right tariff at home you can pay 5p / kWh for electricity to fuel the car or even free or paid to take it away if there is surplus being generated.

With modern EVs doing around 4 miles per kW that is around 1.25p per mile compared to a car doing 40 MPG costing around 10.5p per mile; so 8000 miles would cost around £100 a year in electricity vs £1,090 in petrol. Even paying 25p /kWh for a PAYG rapid charger for a 50kW charge to get you 200 miles home would only be £12.50 vs £27.50 in petrol.

Sure EVs are not for everyone, but for those who do buy/lease new cars and do mostly less than 200 mile round trip journeys, they are no longer a crazy idea.

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389305

Postby JohnB » February 23rd, 2021, 7:02 pm

New Hyundai Ioniq 5 has 300 mile range, and with both low energy usage and a fast charger, it can take on 100km of range in 5 minutes, apparently, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Den_4COV1zk

If ordinary manufacturers can achieve 10miles/min range extension, and you'd tend to start full anyway, I don't feel having to stop for 15 minutes driving London to Glasgow is a big issue

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389314

Postby Howard » February 23rd, 2021, 7:51 pm

We drove a plug in hybrid for two years as a second car. A BMW 330e. It was mainly used for short journeys but had a range of over 400 miles.

Over 11,292 miles the car used 726.05 litres of petrol. So it achieved 71 mpg. (I’m sad and record all my fuel purchases on a spreadsheet.)

The car was charged most evenings and I estimate that over two years it consumed around £240 of electricity in addition to the petrol costs.

It was a very quiet and smooth car (and fast!), I was sad to see it go, but it was on a two year lease.

We replaced it with a VW Golf 1.4 petrol automatic. Used for similar journeys it has averaged 42.8 mpg. We are replacing it with a Kia BEV which is reported in real life driving surveys to have a range very close to its claimed 280 miles. I’ve driven two other BEVs and have been impressed with them and our Kia will probably never need charging away from home.

I doubt if we’ll save money on fuel costs over 3 years because the cost of installing a 7.5 kWh charger in my (detached) garage will cost me just under £750 (net of OLEV grant). To qualify for a possibly cheaper electricity tariff with Octopus they require a “smart” charger to be fitted. (And a standard simply-fitted outdoor Podpoint smart charger cost a neighbour £600.)

The cost of leasing the BEV is virtually the same as the cost of leasing a petrol VW Golf over three years.

Before lockdown we used to do the occasional 500 mile return trip, staying away, so, assuming we do this again, our other car will probably continue to be a petrol model which can do that type of journey without the need to refuel.

regards

Howard

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389319

Postby AF62 » February 23rd, 2021, 8:26 pm

Howard wrote:I doubt if we’ll save money on fuel costs over 3 years because the cost of installing a 7.5 kWh charger in my (detached) garage will cost me just under £750 (net of OLEV grant). To qualify for a possibly cheaper electricity tariff with Octopus they require a “smart” charger to be fitted. (And a standard simply-fitted outdoor Podpoint smart charger cost a neighbour £600.)


Octopus will sell you a smart Ohme charging cable for £199 reduced from £400 (https://www.ohme-ev.com/shop/ohme-home-charger) which can be plugged into a commando socket that will allow you to charge via their discounted overnight supply.

It doesn't qualify for the OLEV grant, but getting an electrician to install a commando socket and buying the cable could still be cheaper than getting an electrician to install a £350 OLEV 'subsidised' charger - why do government subsidies always seem to simply inflate the price?

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389325

Postby Mike4 » February 23rd, 2021, 8:56 pm

What's a "commando socket" please?

Thx

Howard
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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389333

Postby Howard » February 23rd, 2021, 9:25 pm

AF62 wrote:
Howard wrote:I doubt if we’ll save money on fuel costs over 3 years because the cost of installing a 7.5 kWh charger in my (detached) garage will cost me just under £750 (net of OLEV grant). To qualify for a possibly cheaper electricity tariff with Octopus they require a “smart” charger to be fitted. (And a standard simply-fitted outdoor Podpoint smart charger cost a neighbour £600.)


Octopus will sell you a smart Ohme charging cable for £199 reduced from £400 (https://www.ohme-ev.com/shop/ohme-home-charger) which can be plugged into a commando socket that will allow you to charge via their discounted overnight supply.

It doesn't qualify for the OLEV grant, but getting an electrician to install a commando socket and buying the cable could still be cheaper than getting an electrician to install a £350 OLEV 'subsidised' charger - why do government subsidies always seem to simply inflate the price?


Thanks for the suggestion.

I did quite a lot of research before committing and got a quote from a local electrician to install a 32 amp commando socket. It was £599 (and I am digging the trench myself). The ohme charger would be extra. So the tethered charger with OLEV grant, including the cable, at just under £750 works out cheaper.

regards

Howard

AF62
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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389335

Postby AF62 » February 23rd, 2021, 9:28 pm

Mike4 wrote:What's a "commando socket" please?

Thx


One of these - https://images.app.goo.gl/owYvbzcC4evPGmxD6

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389370

Postby Lanark » February 23rd, 2021, 11:17 pm

richlist wrote:There doesn't seem to be much difference in the overall cost of a car when you compare buying outright with leasing (pcp) over 3 - 5 years.

Thats true but theres a lot of small print that can catch you out:

Drive too many miles -- pay a surcharge.
Drive not enough miles -- you are paying a contract for miles you won't use.
Have a change in circumstance which means you need a different vehicle -- pay a surcharge to end the contract.
Decide to emigrate and live in another country -- pay a surcharge to end the contract.
Accidentally add wear and tear to the car which the contract company don't like -- pay a surcharge.

Finally at the end of the contract, should you have the audacity to consider a different brand, you can't just trade in the old car because you need to give it back, so you have to try and synchronise delivery of the new car with returning the old one. This is such a PITA that almost nobody does it and so pcp customers tend to be very brand loyal.

Howard
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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389378

Postby Howard » February 23rd, 2021, 11:52 pm

Lanark wrote:
richlist wrote:There doesn't seem to be much difference in the overall cost of a car when you compare buying outright with leasing (pcp) over 3 - 5 years.

Thats true but theres a lot of small print that can catch you out:

Drive too many miles -- pay a surcharge.
Drive not enough miles -- you are paying a contract for miles you won't use.
Have a change in circumstance which means you need a different vehicle -- pay a surcharge to end the contract.
Decide to emigrate and live in another country -- pay a surcharge to end the contract.
Accidentally add wear and tear to the car which the contract company don't like -- pay a surcharge.

Finally at the end of the contract, should you have the audacity to consider a different brand, you can't just trade in the old car because you need to give it back, so you have to try and synchronise delivery of the new car with returning the old one. This is such a PITA that almost nobody does it and so pcp customers tend to be very brand loyal.


Contract hire which is simpler and less costly than a PCP solves most of those problems. Obviously if one damages the car, there is a penalty. And, yes, you do have to estimate your mileage at the beginning. I'm ending a VW Financial Services contract a few months early and the penalty is minimal. One of the reasons for the lower cost is that our mileage is lower than expected because of lockdown. We are ending the contract early because there are some really good deals on new cars at the moment which may not be there in a few months time. So it's more flexible than one might expect.

If all goes well the old car will be collected on the same day as the new car arrives on a trailer! :)

regards

Howard

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389408

Postby jackdaww » February 24th, 2021, 8:01 am

Howard wrote:
We drove a plug in hybrid for two years as a second car. A BMW 330e. It was mainly used for short journeys but had a range of over 400 miles.

Over 11,292 miles the car used 726.05 litres of petrol. So it achieved 71 mpg.

The car was charged most evenings and I estimate that over two years it consumed around £240 of electricity in addition to the petrol costs.

It was a very quiet and smooth car (and fast!), I was sad to see it go, but it was on a two year lease.

Howard


============================

if accurate 71mpg is indeed excellent even allowing for the electricity costs .

perhaps hybrids DO have a fuel advantage - i still dont know why.

:?

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Re: Would you buy a new petrol engine car today?

#389424

Postby AF62 » February 24th, 2021, 9:04 am

jackdaww wrote:
Howard wrote:
We drove a plug in hybrid for two years as a second car. A BMW 330e. It was mainly used for short journeys but had a range of over 400 miles.

Over 11,292 miles the car used 726.05 litres of petrol. So it achieved 71 mpg.

The car was charged most evenings and I estimate that over two years it consumed around £240 of electricity in addition to the petrol costs.

It was a very quiet and smooth car (and fast!), I was sad to see it go, but it was on a two year lease.

Howard


============================

if accurate 71mpg is indeed excellent even allowing for the electricity costs .

perhaps hybrids DO have a fuel advantage - i still dont know why.

:?


Because Howard's figures were for a plug in hybrid, not a hybrid that only uses electricity generated from petrol (whether directly or indirectly from regenerative braking).

On the assumption that the £240 of electricity was at standard rates, that is around 1,500 kWh, which if used on its own would have powered the car for 5,000ish miles. That leaves 6,000ish miles for petrol, so around 37.5 mpg.

It isn't that a plug in hybrid (or a pure EV) has a fuel advantage - they are not that more efficient in using electricity than petrol. They have a cost advantage because electricity is far cheaper than petrol or diesel because it isn't subject to the same taxes.

As Howard has shown, plug in hybrids can be effective IF they are plugged in. However a vast number are never plugged in and are just run on petrol because they (and non-plug in hybrids) have just been bought for the tax breaks given to company car owners.


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