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Electric car thinking

Passion, instruction, buying, care, maintenance and more, any form of vehicle discussion is welcome here
Mike4
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Re: Electric car thinking

#395260

Postby Mike4 » March 13th, 2021, 3:20 pm

dspp wrote:Sorry Mike, I just thought it was any old van you were after :)

(They are doing an electric Transit but I don't think you will find it to your liking at present)

regards, dspp



Actually, what I'm after is a fast, comfortable and quiet electric van with 300 mile range, has a big solar panel on the roof so never needs charging, and if it does run flat I can charge it from an on-board genny. Needs to look professional and tidy, fit in London underground car parks, have air conditioning and all the mod cons one gets in a good quality car.

Oh and my budget is under £10k.

9873210
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Re: Electric car thinking

#395279

Postby 9873210 » March 13th, 2021, 5:35 pm

This:
Mike4 wrote:Actually, what I'm after is a fast, comfortable and quiet electric van with 300 mile range, has a big solar panel on the roof so never needs charging, and if it does run flat I can charge it from an on-board genny. Needs to look professional and tidy, fit in London underground car parks, have air conditioning and all the mod cons one gets in a good quality car.

Oh and my budget is under £10k.


is why:

Mike4 wrote:... the market for electric tradesman's vans is being ignored!


Small business, which includes most tradesmen, tend to be very conservative. Many will adopt one or a few related innovations in their core trade, but
still be very conservative in other areas. There are good reasons for this. But the result is that you can sell a 2% cost reduction in almost any part of their operation to UPS or Walmart. Selling to small business needs much bigger improvements, or waiting for UPS to acclimatize a few hundred thousand people to new methods while an entire generation of tradesmen retire.

Mike88
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Re: Electric car thinking

#395295

Postby Mike88 » March 13th, 2021, 7:32 pm

Mike4 wrote:
dspp wrote:Sorry Mike, I just thought it was any old van you were after :)

(They are doing an electric Transit but I don't think you will find it to your liking at present)

regards, dspp



Actually, what I'm after is a fast, comfortable and quiet electric van with 300 mile range, has a big solar panel on the roof so never needs charging, and if it does run flat I can charge it from an on-board genny. Needs to look professional and tidy, fit in London underground car parks, have air conditioning and all the mod cons one gets in a good quality car.

Oh and my budget is under £10k.

Mike88
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Re: Electric car thinking

#395297

Postby Mike88 » March 13th, 2021, 7:44 pm

Mike88 wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
dspp wrote:Sorry Mike, I just thought it was any old van you were after :)

(They are doing an electric Transit but I don't think you will find it to your liking at present)

regards, dspp



Actually, what I'm after is a fast, comfortable and quiet electric van with 300 mile range, has a big solar panel on the roof so never needs charging, and if it does run flat I can charge it from an on-board genny. Needs to look professional and tidy, fit in London underground car parks, have air conditioning and all the mod cons one gets in a good quality car.

Oh and my budget is under £10k.


I doubt whether any amount of solar panels on a van roof will avoid the need to charge the vehicle batteries and, even with an onboard genny, it will take an impracticable amount of time to charge any battery from flat.

Additionally I very much doubt whether an electric van can be bought for the OPs budget. Leasing would seem to be the way to go as long as he accepts that solar power is unlikely to work satisfactorily.

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Re: Electric car thinking

#395373

Postby bungeejumper » March 14th, 2021, 9:17 am

Mike88 wrote:I doubt whether any amount of solar panels on a van roof will avoid the need to charge the vehicle batteries and, even with an onboard genny, it will take an impracticable amount of time to charge any battery from flat.

Additionally I very much doubt whether an electric van can be bought for the OPs budget. Leasing would seem to be the way to go as long as he accepts that solar power is unlikely to work satisfactorily.

Maybe it's me, but I'd assumed that M4 was pulling our various legs? Don't know about all these electric vans, but the half tonne of batteries in a Tesla S will currently cost you £7K to replace. (Plus fitting, which isn't just a matter of swapping the boxes.) **

But the obvious fly in the ointment is that a roof-mounted solar panel will be 99% useless anywhere north of Southampton. :lol:

BJ

** WRT what kills a Tesla battery, https://insideevs.com/news/339193/3-way ... eplace-it/ might prove instructive. 100-150 miles a day with two 100% charges a day was enough to cook one feller's car within 130,000 miles. :( Maybe he was just unwise to charge to the max every time?

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Re: Electric car thinking

#395375

Postby swill453 » March 14th, 2021, 9:30 am

bungeejumper wrote:But the obvious fly in the ointment is that a roof-mounted solar panel will be 99% useless anywhere north of Southampton.

Plus the fact a solar panel the size of a car/van upper surface area would take about 10 days to charge a Tesla-style battery, even operating at max output.

Scott.

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Re: Electric car thinking

#395379

Postby Spet0789 » March 14th, 2021, 9:40 am

airbus330 wrote:
Spet0789 wrote:Finally, as it is almost never rational to buy a new car as opposed to a 2-5 year old one, we will need to wait for a little longer before sufficient volumes of EVs are on the second hand market.


I think this is a really interesting topic. With low volumes of electric cars, the landscape for the used EV car buyer is pretty murky in terms of future value and running costs. Although the initial readings seem to indicate EV's being quite reliable, I'm a great believer in not being an early adopter of new technology and will definitely not want to be running an EV with a manufacturers warranty in place.


Generally speaking I’d agree with you. I’d never buy a car built in the first 1-2 years of that model’s life. Some manufacturers (JLR, Aston Martin, Alfa Romeo - looking at you) use the buyers of early production cars as amateur reliability testers! Far better to let them iron out the big faults and wait for the later cars.

That said, all of the data suggest that electric cars are ageing well. Electric motors have something like 100 times fewer moving parts than an internal combustion engine and have far less vibration, which is generally the mechanical engineer’s enemy. Batteries are lasting better than anticipated too.

Mike4
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Re: Electric car thinking

#395386

Postby Mike4 » March 14th, 2021, 10:02 am

bungeejumper wrote:Maybe it's me, but I'd assumed that M4 was pulling our various legs?


I'm BUSTED. You are perfectly correct, I do enjoy writing posts hovering on the borderline of credibility, naughty I know. My apologies.

I thought what I'd written was comfortably ludicrous enough not to be taken seriously, especially when I added my budget at the end. Those who have noticed my occasional comments that on TLF I have been using LiFePO4 batteries and solar panels for years on my boat will probably have realised immediately.

But the obvious fly in the ointment is that a roof-mounted solar panel will be 99% useless anywhere north of Southampton. :lol:


This is more than true. With the 24v installation on my boat the weather is the biggest factor. Apart from the fact that solar panels are generally rated with sun perpendicularly above, which never happens in the UK. I don't think I've ever seen my panels delivering more than about 60% of their rated output into the batteries in full midday sun in summer. But on a bright but cloudy day it will be nearer to 15%. I think the roof of my van is about the area of 800W of solar panels so at 15% average output for say a generous 12 hours a day, it would indeed take about a week to charge a 7kWh battery. But for a van carrying half a tonne of tools and stock to go 300 miles between charges I'd guess 15kWh of battery capacity would be nearer the mark.

** WRT what kills a Tesla battery, https://insideevs.com/news/339193/3-way ... eplace-it/ might prove instructive. 100-150 miles a day with two 100% charges a day was enough to cook one feller's car within 130,000 miles. :( Maybe he was just unwise to charge to the max every time?


This is consistent with received wisdom in the world of low tech canal boat LiFePO4 batteries. The rule of thumb is charge to 80%, discharge to 20%, so 60% of nominal LiFePO4 battery capacity is available to be used without knackering them.

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Re: Electric car thinking

#402907

Postby scrumpyjack » April 9th, 2021, 2:04 pm

Thinking of getting a BEV and having a look at the ID 4 on thursday. It needs to be able to take 2 sets of golf clubs and 2 electric trolleys, and preferably have plenty of driver assist facilities. I know the ID 4 has ACC and Lane assist but nothing approaching the Tesla aiming for self driving. The Leaf and others all look too small for the golf stuff.

Any comments much appreciated!

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Re: Electric car thinking

#406008

Postby BobbyD » April 22nd, 2021, 6:28 am

scrumpyjack wrote:Thinking of getting a BEV and having a look at the ID 4 on thursday. It needs to be able to take 2 sets of golf clubs and 2 electric trolleys, and preferably have plenty of driver assist facilities. I know the ID 4 has ACC and Lane assist but nothing approaching the Tesla aiming for self driving. The Leaf and others all look too small for the golf stuff.

Any comments much appreciated!


ID.4 just won world car of the year!

It's a very efficiently packaged car. If you want a better idea about the ID.4's functional cargo capacity then I'd refer you to the 'official' international standard Banana box test:

https://youtu.be/8NDimpnRAO4?t=219

The Id.4 can't self drive, but neither can a Tesla. It does/can come with a nice AR HUD though which will project directions, highlight the vehicle adaptive cruise is working off, indicate lanes and lane boundaries on to the road as well as projecting the usual speed etc. on to the near field display.

https://youtu.be/uQT5pRs0yCQ?t=57

ETA: HUD also appears to show speed limit where detected.

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Re: Electric car thinking

#406021

Postby scrumpyjack » April 22nd, 2021, 8:07 am

BobbyD wrote:
scrumpyjack wrote:Thinking of getting a BEV and having a look at the ID 4 on thursday. It needs to be able to take 2 sets of golf clubs and 2 electric trolleys, and preferably have plenty of driver assist facilities. I know the ID 4 has ACC and Lane assist but nothing approaching the Tesla aiming for self driving. The Leaf and others all look too small for the golf stuff.

Any comments much appreciated!


ID.4 just won world car of the year!

It's a very efficiently packaged car. If you want a better idea about the ID.4's functional cargo capacity then I'd refer you to the 'official' international standard Banana box test:

https://youtu.be/8NDimpnRAO4?t=219

The Id.4 can't self drive, but neither can a Tesla. It does/can come with a nice AR HUD though which will project directions, highlight the vehicle adaptive cruise is working off, indicate lanes and lane boundaries on to the road as well as projecting the usual speed etc. on to the near field display.

https://youtu.be/uQT5pRs0yCQ?t=57

ETA: HUD also appears to show speed limit where detected.


Test drove it, bought it, being delivered today :D :D

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Re: Electric car thinking

#406032

Postby Arborbridge » April 22nd, 2021, 8:55 am

I notice the electric VW Up costs £23,555. The petrol polo costs £17355.

So you can squeeze into a tiny car and know you helping to save the planet (?) or have a bit more space and pay less.

Long way to go on the electric front, by the look of it.


Arb.

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Re: Electric car thinking

#406038

Postby Nimrod103 » April 22nd, 2021, 9:26 am

Arborbridge wrote:I notice the electric VW Up costs £23,555. The petrol polo costs £17355.

So you can squeeze into a tiny car and know you helping to save the planet (?) or have a bit more space and pay less.

Long way to go on the electric front, by the look of it.


Arb.


Electric car advocates will say that the difference will be made up over a few years by the lower cost of electricity fuel vs petrol fuel.

However, that difference in cost of fuel is tax, which is used to save the planet.

So electric car users pay less of their fair share of the tax burden.

So you end up saving the planet just as much with a petrol car, as an electric one?

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Re: Electric car thinking

#406053

Postby BobbyD » April 22nd, 2021, 9:52 am

scrumpyjack wrote:
Test drove it, bought it, being delivered today :D :D


Is it Thursday already?

Congrats!

Arborbridge
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Re: Electric car thinking

#406054

Postby Arborbridge » April 22nd, 2021, 9:53 am

Nimrod103 wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:I notice the electric VW Up costs £23,555. The petrol polo costs £17355.

So you can squeeze into a tiny car and know you helping to save the planet (?) or have a bit more space and pay less.

Long way to go on the electric front, by the look of it.


Arb.


Electric car advocates will say that the difference will be made up over a few years by the lower cost of electricity fuel vs petrol fuel.

However, that difference in cost of fuel is tax, which is used to save the planet.

So electric car users pay less of their fair share of the tax burden.

So you end up saving the planet just as much with a petrol car, as an electric one?


Well, who knows - and that's the real problem with all of this. I doubt many people really know anything at all! And those that do will be in one expert camp or another or part of a lobby, so not to be entirely trusted.

Anyhow, I was just day dreaming about replacing a small family runabout, and yes, I would like to look at the possibilities for getting a cleaner car in due course. But at the moment, it would be sheer stupidity to replace a 14 year old Citreon C4 which cost virtually zero to run with an electric job which costs the earth - well costs a bit more of the earth in just producing it.

Then there's the problem of replacing our bigger car for longer journeys, where at present only a hybrid makes much sense until the infrastructure is easy and immediate. But bigger hybrids are also uncompetitive, though I will keep looking.

Arb.

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Re: Electric car thinking

#406175

Postby AF62 » April 22nd, 2021, 2:49 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:I notice the electric VW Up costs £23,555. The petrol polo costs £17355.

So you can squeeze into a tiny car and know you helping to save the planet (?) or have a bit more space and pay less.

Long way to go on the electric front, by the look of it.


Arb.


Electric car advocates will say that the difference will be made up over a few years by the lower cost of electricity fuel vs petrol fuel.

However, that difference in cost of fuel is tax, which is used to save the planet.

So electric car users pay less of their fair share of the tax burden.

So you end up saving the planet just as much with a petrol car, as an electric one?


So how does money (i.e. the tax paid) “save the planet”?

The money might be used by the government for a lot of good things (or squandered by bunging mates millions for dodgy contracts), but certainly 100% of fuel duty isn’t used to reduce co2 emissions.

Road fuel tax is simply a stick to beat people with to say ‘drive less’ or ‘don’t drive a gas guzzler’, with the lack of tax on electricity used as a road fuel being the carrot to day ‘do this’.

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Re: Electric car thinking

#406231

Postby scrumpyjack » April 22nd, 2021, 4:53 pm

Most people seem to have very fixed views on the whole EV issue and in the past some government green policies have been crazy (eg subsidising solar panels far too early so that we pay a fortune to build up the Chinese panel manufacturing industry).

A few comments on issues that have been raised.

Obviously the tax currently raised by fuel duty will be replaced by more tax elsewhere when ICEs are no longer used.

Increasingly electricity will come from Wind Power and the OLEV grants help to ensure people have home chargers that can be remotely managed to balance load with available power. As batteries improve more people will find that home charging is sufficient and the load on motorway service stations will not reach unviable levels and fixed giant battery storage for electricity supply management will become common.

EVs will hugely improve air quality in cities, very much needed.

If and when (and I’m pretty sure it is a case of When not If) full self driving EVs become reality it will transform car transport, parking needs, the demand for car ownership etc etc.

I have gone from EV sceptic to EV convert. It is the future though I doubt I will live long enough to see it fully come top pass!

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Re: Electric car thinking

#411404

Postby brightncheerful » May 12th, 2021, 4:00 pm

People these days are not bothered about *owning* something but are concerned about *using* something.


Similar to renting a property, rather than owning it. Which given your assertion is why renters aren't bothered about owning a property and would much rather rent.

As it happens, i am just as concerned about owning as using because owning is an asset - albeit a car is a depreciating asset until it gets to the stage of becoming a collector's item whereupon it could end up more valuable than the purchase price.


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