UK cuts electric car subsidies.

[JohnB]

Those numbers were $1000/kWh a decade ago, and prices are still falling fast, due to technological advances and economies of scale. And with the Chinese selling a (butt ugly, city runabout) BEV for £3k, there is way to go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xBHJB8fCvM&t=867s

[88V8]

I object to subsidising electric cars and their infrastructure and their fuel.
So I am glad the subs have been cut.

But.... if one were obsessed with electrifying transport, subs would be a logical move.
Not only does it sell some cars, but it starts garages thinking that they had better learn and equip themselves to service them. You can't yet take an electric car to your local garage, I'll bet!
And eventually there will be the trickle-down of used cars so that the impecunious can afford them.

Then there's the charging problem to solve.
Which magazine this month were moaning about the plethora of different charging operators, the non-interchangeability of the payment platforms.
And they were lauding fast chargers. AIUI, use of fast chargers degrades the battery.

All be solved, in a hundred years.

V8

[Howard]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/18/uk-slashes-grants-for-electric-car-buyers-while-increasing-petrol-vehicle-support

This seems like an oddly timed move.

John

I know you are considering a BEV as a replacement for your Golf.

You might be interested to read that I have taken delivery of a KIA BEV this week and first impressions are very favourable. Sad to see our Golf go, but the KIA is surprisingly upmarket by comparison.

Will post more mature observations on the car in a week or two. But see viewtopic.php?p=397999#p397999 for more details.

regards

Howard

[Lanark]

Then there's the charging problem to solve.
Which magazine this month were moaning about the plethora of different charging operators, the non-interchangeability of the payment platforms.
And they were lauding fast chargers. AIUI, use of fast chargers degrades the battery.

I think what they need is swappable batteries, you rent the batteries from a global pool, pull into a service station and they swap out your batteries with a fully charged set. The cost of each battery swap includes the energy and some charge to account for wear on the battery.

But it will require going back to the drawing board on electric car design and will make it hard to have much differentiation between manufacturers if they are all saddled with the same battery tech.

[Nimrod103]

Then there's the charging problem to solve.
Which magazine this month were moaning about the plethora of different charging operators, the non-interchangeability of the payment platforms.
And they were lauding fast chargers. AIUI, use of fast chargers degrades the battery.

I think what they need is swappable batteries, you rent the batteries from a global pool, pull into a service station and they swap out your batteries with a fully charged set. The cost of each battery swap includes the energy and some charge to account for wear on the battery.

But it will require going back to the drawing board on electric car design and will make it hard to have much differentiation between manufacturers if they are all saddled with the same battery tech.

How do you envisage changing the batteries at a service station. Presumably in a few minutes?
The batteries in the new Tesla weigh over half a ton.

[9873210]

What makes an electric car so much more expensive? I mean most of the bodywork and the running gear is the same as a traditional car. Electric motors are hardly new technology and arguably of a more simple construction than some of the ICE power plants around. So is it just down to the batteries?

.....Or maybe (probably) its just production volumes. I recall being stunned when I found a brake disk for my old Yamaha 900 was many times more expensive than that of our Ford Fiesta. The bike disk was prettier (because its 'on show', but less substantial than the Ford disk, but the price difference was eye popping and it was basically down to the fact that Yamaha might make 10,000 brake disks for that bike, while Ford made millions for the Fiesta.

Simple construction is not the be all - end all. Complexity can reduce cost, but when it does it usually adds development cost but reduces variable (per unit) costs. This tradeoff requires high volumes to break even.

I worked with industrial electric vehicles. A 2 speed gearbox with a 3:1 ratio would allow for a smaller motor, smaller overall package and reduced unit costs. However the non-recurring engineering costs for a custom gearbox were insane. If we were selling 100 million units we'd pay it. But for our far smaller production run we just tripled the size of the motor.

[bungeejumper]

I think what they need is swappable batteries, you rent the batteries from a global pool, pull into a service station and they swap out your batteries with a fully charged set. The cost of each battery swap includes the energy and some charge to account for wear on the battery.

But it will require going back to the drawing board on electric car design and will make it hard to have much differentiation between manufacturers if they are all saddled with the same battery tech.

Indeed. Not only that, but we'll be semi-permanently stuck with whatever happens to be the current state of batteries at the time when the standardisation comes in, and that'll be a damper on innovation.

Suppose that somebody invents a battery tomorrow that will give you 1,000 miles from a briefcase-sized power pack, and we've all got underfloor battery stowage areas the size of the Queen Mary? Complete with the essential slot-in tray for quick-replacing the battery unit with a fork lift truck?

Naturally that's an exaggeration - in practice, there'll be successive generations of cars with Generation A, Generation B and Generation C battery packs, and the service stations will need to stock all of them. But each new and more efficient generation will require a chassis redesign, not least because of the changes in weight distribution. Upgrading the battery control systems will be a small matter by comparison.

BJ

[9873210]

Suppose that somebody invents a battery tomorrow that will give you 1,000 miles from a briefcase-sized power pack, and we've all got underfloor battery stowage areas the size of the Queen Mary? Complete with the essential slot-in tray for quick-replacing the battery unit with a fork lift truck?

Micro-SIM card adaptor.

Complete with lots of steel ballast to approximate the weight and balance of the Queen Mary.

Although I agree that if battery swapping is the answer, you've asked the wrong question. People tend to think of batteries as the equivalent of a petrol tank, but batteries are not just for storage. Batteries are where the chemical reactions occur, so battery swapping has many aspects of engine swapping.

[JohnB]

There are battery swapping stations in China, they take 3 minutes, are done by robots and need a member of staff. They take up the equivalent of many parking bays, and without any Western manufacturers pushing it (Tesla withdrew their plans), I think the idea is dead in the water, as you'd have to pay a premium over a charging booth.

[AF62]

I think what they need is swappable batteries

They don't.

The range of the newer BEVS is such that that for most people they will only need to charge it once a week, or if used heavily, every few days.

Most cars spend the vast majority of their time parked, so take advantage of that and make sure that the charging infrastructure is in place where people park. For lots of people this will be at home, but for those who don't have a house with off-road parking, then chargers in the car park at work, the train station, the supermarket, etc. and also street side charging where people have to park overnight.

Combined with a decent fast charging network on motorways and trunk routes to cover those few lengthy journeys people occasionally make which are beyond the range of the BEV, and you have the needs of the vast majority covered.

Although of course that would need politicians to actually get their act together, rather than throw around grant money which just inflates the cost of the vehicle and the charger installation.

[richlist]

Thats a rather simplistic view of what is needed.

Many times when I have pulled into large motorway service areas there are a row of 12-15 car chargers but there are probably at least 200 non electric cars in the car park. When the majority of travellers are using electric cars it's difficult to see how they will be able to install enough chargers.

[AF62]

Thats a rather simplistic view of what is needed.

Many times when I have pulled into large motorway service areas there are a row of 12-15 car chargers but there are probably at least 200 non electric cars in the car park. When the majority of travellers are using electric cars it's difficult to see how they will be able to install enough chargers.

Perhaps yours is the simplistic view!

How many out of the 200 non electric cars will fill up at the petrol station at the service area? 20 - no chance. 10 - I doubt it. 5 - unlikely. 1 or 2 - now you are getting there.

So why assume that every BEV will need to recharge? Sure some will as I mentioned, but also as I mentioned, with the type of range now available on a BEV it is far more likely they have stopped to both take liquid on and let liquid out.

And even if you did install a significant number of chargers, the cost of installation will be far lower than installing a petrol station and you can use the land as parking spaces whilst refuelling which you cannot with a petrol station.

[supremetwo]

Perhaps yours is the simplistic view!

How many out of the 200 non electric cars will fill up at the petrol station at the service area? 20 - no chance. 10 - I doubt it. 5 - unlikely. 1 or 2 - now you are getting there.

So why assume that every BEV will need to recharge? Sure some will as I mentioned, but also as I mentioned, with the type of range now available on a BEV it is far more likely they have stopped to both take liquid on and let liquid out.

And even if you did install a significant number of chargers, the cost of installation will be far lower than installing a petrol station and you can use the land as parking spaces whilst refuelling which you cannot with a petrol station.

Depends on where the nearest main connection is located and its capacity.

If a new substation and a long feed is needed for sufficient fast-charging spaces, that could well have a higher initial cost than digging a hole and burying a fuel storage tank.

[Lanark]

If filling up with petrol takes 5 mins and a fast recharge takes 1 hour, you need 12 times as many charge points.

If filling up with petrol takes 5 mins and a full recharge takes 4 hours, you need 48 times as many charge points.

If a typical filling station has 8 places to fill up, then in the new world it might need 384

[Wuffle]

If 'enterprise' or AVIS opened 24 hours and stocked a load of diesel Passat estates we really wouldn't have to do very much in terms of infrastructure.
We are looking at this in quite a bifurcated way.
Going a long way, usually at pace, is a different job, use a different tool.

I have no guilt 'cos no kids and it can all end in 30 or so years.
Not that this is about guilt, it is about tax avoidance.
Most of the same people fly (usually).

W.

[JohnB]

Its more like 20 minutes for the ultra rapid chargers, and unlike petrol, most charging is done at other sites, home, office and especially supermarkets, I suspect.

If you always leave home with 300 mile range and expect to return empty, that covers all daily and most weekends away, leaving just holidays to cover with deep recharges far from home

[AF62]

If filling up with petrol takes 5 mins and a fast recharge takes 1 hour, you need 12 times as many charge points.

If filling up with petrol takes 5 mins and a full recharge takes 4 hours, you need 48 times as many charge points.

If a typical filling station has 8 places to fill up, then in the new world it might need 384

You are overlooking that people with petrol / diesel cars must fill up at a filling station, but most people with BEVS don’t need to do that as they fill up at home, or work, or at the supermarket, or the hotel they are going to, etc.

The only demand for charging away from those points is when the journey being undertaken exceeds the range, which with the increasing range of BEVS means that although the requirement for ‘in journey’ charging doesn’t vanish it does become increasingly unlikely.

[richlist]

It's easy in your utopian world to overlook the fact that currently work places, supermarkets and hotels have nowhere near enough charging points to accommodate even a modest increase in BEV's. The investment required to install vast numbers of chargers would be enormous and unlikely to be adopted voluntarily.

As for BEV owners charging at home, the millions of people living in flats don't currently have that option & it's difficult to see that changing in anything other than at least a generation.

[Arborbridge]

If filling up with petrol takes 5 mins and a fast recharge takes 1 hour, you need 12 times as many charge points.

If filling up with petrol takes 5 mins and a full recharge takes 4 hours, you need 48 times as many charge points.

If a typical filling station has 8 places to fill up, then in the new world it might need 384

And in addition to all the disadvantages, I'm still getting my head round why I would want to do this elecric thingy, particularly from a capital POV.

For instance, someone here was writing about taking delivery of a new Kia - I think the cost is around £36k. A quick glance at the Merc site shows I could buy a replacement for my B-class - another new car - for around £25-26k, either petrol or diesel. I'd have to be dedicated to justify the difference in cost between the two

A hybrid might be on the cards, but just at the moment, it seems too early for an electric.

Arb.

[AF62]

And in addition to all the disadvantages, I'm still getting my head round why I would want to do this elecric thingy, particularly from a capital POV.

For instance, someone here was writing about taking delivery of a new Kia - I think the cost is around £36k. A quick glance at the Merc site shows I could buy a replacement for my B-class - another new car - for around £25-26k, either petrol or diesel. I'd have to be dedicated to justify the difference in cost between the two

A hybrid might be on the cards, but just at the moment, it seems too early for an electric.

Arb.

What is the depreciation on a new B class over 3 years? £12k+? Fuel £3.5k? RFL £500? So a £16k cost of use. A leased Kia over the same period £14.5k and perhaps £300 fuel cost and no RFL.