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UK largest EV charging hub

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brightncheerful
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UK largest EV charging hub

#411920

Postby brightncheerful » May 14th, 2021, 1:56 pm

Hammerson is installing a 236-bay hub in NW London's Brent Cross Shopping Centre car park. the project phased over 5 years. the first phase, 52 bays, will be completed this year. The fast chargers take 1-2 hours to fully charge a car battery.

https://www.hammerson.com/media/press-releases/uks-largest-ev-charging-hub-set-to-electrify-brent-cross/

I was on the external consultant planning team for the then proposed Brent Cross Shopping Centre development. At the public inquiry, it was mentioned that the catchment area drive-time 20 minutes radius included Watford, The inspector asked what car had been used to assess that. Hearing it was a Lotus, the inspector wondered if that would be the car of a typical customer. (The roads have improved since: I have just checked on google maps and the estimated time (fastest route, usual traffic) is 17 minutes.)

AF62
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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#411974

Postby AF62 » May 14th, 2021, 6:43 pm

brightncheerful wrote:Hammerson is installing a 236-bay hub in NW London's Brent Cross Shopping Centre car park. the project phased over 5 years. the first phase, 52 bays, will be completed this year. The fast chargers take 1-2 hours to fully charge a car battery.

https://www.hammerson.com/media/press-releases/uks-largest-ev-charging-hub-set-to-electrify-brent-cross/


Not sure that this is a sensible use of money, and I say that as someone who owns an EV.

The linked article talks about the charging points benefiting the users of Brent Cross, but people only tend to charge at retail sites if the electricity is free (or at least sensibly priced) or they are desperate. My local council has installed charging points in all its car parks, but they have a rate of 30 p/kW so between double and six times what someone would pay at home. So far I haven't seen a single car charging from them, but I see loads charging at the (free) charge points in the nearby Tesco.

As for serving the people passing by on the M1 - well I suppose they might get a few who have miscalculated their range and are prepared to spend a few hours at Brent Cross charging, but it doesn't seem a great business model.

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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#411991

Postby JohnB » May 14th, 2021, 8:41 pm

With EV prices high I suspect most buyers are owner-occupiers with off-street parking, so have their own charging points, and would only charge at a retail destination if it were free. As prices fall and ownership widens, then the attraction of getting your car charged while shopping before returning to your terraced house will rise, and the arbitrage of free/paid charging points will settle down to a more consistent level, with some sites offering cheap power as an incentive to visit.

Mike4
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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412007

Postby Mike4 » May 14th, 2021, 10:45 pm

JohnB wrote:With EV prices high I suspect most buyers are owner-occupiers with off-street parking, so have their own charging points, and would only charge at a retail destination if it were free. As prices fall and ownership widens, then the attraction of getting your car charged while shopping before returning to your terraced house will rise, and the arbitrage of free/paid charging points will settle down to a more consistent level, with some sites offering cheap power as an incentive to visit.


I can think of several millionaires in my circle of friends who live in urban terraced houses with no off-road parking. Town centre terraces make excellent homes for single people.

I think users of BEVs who have parking on their drives are the vanguard. Once everyone with private parking has a BEV the focus will shift to finding ways to charge BEVs parked on the street. I'll give it ten years for the focus to shift to wireless charging of vehicles parked on the street, above coils buried under the tarmac. A bit like I wirelessly charge my iPhone. Plugging your BEV into the wall with a cable will (soon, hopefully) be unbelievably passé and those spending a grand on a 7kW wall charger will feel they have been mugged!

JohnB
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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412016

Postby JohnB » May 14th, 2021, 11:16 pm

Wireless EV charging has a problem because the coil system is only about 60% efficient, and the best coupling is where the 2 coils are very close, hard to marry with road clearance requirements. I'd have thought that it would cost more than a cable charging system, as you'd need to pay for ground works as well as electrics.

So while it might be common in areas without off-road parking, I can't see it being the preferred solution where that exists.

richlist
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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412044

Postby richlist » May 15th, 2021, 7:11 am

Well it certainly works for my electric toothbrush although it does take almost 24 hours to fully charge it from flat.

Technology knows no bounds so it wouldn't be beyond my imagination to think that Mike4 suggestion might materialise.

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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412053

Postby AF62 » May 15th, 2021, 7:52 am

Mike4 wrote:I think users of BEVs who have parking on their drives are the vanguard. Once everyone with private parking has a BEV the focus will shift to finding ways to charge BEVs parked on the street.


Such schemes already exist, such as chargepoints being installed in streetlights - https://www.ubitricity.co.uk/b2b-local-authorities/

As cars take several hours to charge, people want to charge where there car will regularly left for several hours without them needing to kill time waiting for it to charge, i.e. home or work. A chargepoint at a retail park might attract some customers if it is free/cheap, or they have no other option - but for most of the time they will go unused.

richlist
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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412056

Postby richlist » May 15th, 2021, 8:24 am

I disagree.

A 7kw charger at a supermarket can charge some small hybrids from flat in a couple of hours. As the battery won't be flat on arrival and shopping may take an hour it makes perfect sense to top up for free. Why wouldn't you do it ?

DrFfybes
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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412068

Postby DrFfybes » May 15th, 2021, 9:54 am

AF62 wrote:Such schemes already exist, such as chargepoints being installed in streetlights - https://www.ubitricity.co.uk/b2b-local-authorities/

As cars take several hours to charge, people want to charge where there car will regularly left for several hours without them needing to kill time waiting for it to charge, i.e. home or work. A chargepoint at a retail park might attract some customers if it is free/cheap, or they have no other option - but for most of the time they will go unused.


Here's an urbitricity one
https://goo.gl/maps/vYNdaDnUzNEjr7tF9
2 others on that road, been in a couple of years
https://goo.gl/maps/uUJotM25KVajxU5D9
And this one with what ooks like a pHEV next to it?
https://goo.gl/maps/wauG8zQdiSM6jbsu7

The points seem to be grouped in clusters, so probably down to the aupply available to the streetlights in those areas.
AF62 wrote:
brightncheerful wrote:My local council has installed charging points in all its car parks, but they have a rate of 30 p/kW so between double and six times what someone would pay at home. So far I haven't seen a single car charging from them, but I see loads charging at the (free) charge points in the nearby Tesco.


That seems high, most councils are 25p or so. They get grants to install them in car parks but they are run by outfits like SWARCO. podpoint, Ecotricity, etc.

The urbi ones are 24p/kWh on the ones above. However supermarkets are subsidising theirs (obviously) but I think they could claim the installation costs back. If you have a BEV and can charge for free at Tesco but not at Sainsburys, that can skew your decision on where to shop

Apparently Ocado are considering mobile charging stations in their vans to top up your car whilst they deliver. ;)

Paul

Mike4
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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412071

Postby Mike4 » May 15th, 2021, 10:08 am

richlist wrote:I disagree.

A 7kw charger at a supermarket can charge some small hybrids from flat in a couple of hours. As the battery won't be flat on arrival and shopping may take an hour it makes perfect sense to top up for free. Why wouldn't you do it ?


1) You didn't bring a cable?
2) It takes five minutes to get the cable out, plug it in, log in to your account etc etc and you're in a rush?
3) You don't have a charging account with Sainsbury's?
4) You brought your cable but it is incompatible?
5) All the charging points have cars parked in them?
6) There are parking spaces much closer to the supermarket entrance than the charging stations?
7) Your "small hybrid" self charges anyway, so why bother?

AF62
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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412085

Postby AF62 » May 15th, 2021, 11:10 am

richlist wrote:I disagree.

A 7kw charger at a supermarket can charge some small hybrids from flat in a couple of hours. As the battery won't be flat on arrival and shopping may take an hour it makes perfect sense to top up for free. Why wouldn't you do it ?


It doesn't take an hour to shop in Tesco.
It takes time to get the cable out of the boot and plug in
It takes time to log into the (usually poor) app to register the charge
It takes time to unplug the cable and wind it back up to put back into the boot
It is messy to wind the cable back up if it has been raining
The chargepoints are at the furthest corner in the car park
I only save 18 pence if I plug in for 30 minutes; I doubt I would bother bending over to pick up a 20p coin.

richlist
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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412161

Postby richlist » May 15th, 2021, 2:11 pm

We shop once or twice a month so it takes an hour or more.
We go middle of a weekday, when it suits us.
We aren't in any rush to save 5 minutes.
We don't go if it's raining.
We don't mind walking across the car park to the store entrance.
Plugging in at Tesco can save doing the same when arriving home.
PHEV 's need plugging in.
There is usually a spare charger if you don't go at peak times.

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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412172

Postby JohnB » May 15th, 2021, 2:38 pm

1) If I can remember to get bags from the kitchen, I can remember the cable in the boot
2) Quicker to plug in the cable than buy a parking ticket from the machine
3) I've got a Nectar card, so why don't I have a charging account. All chargers accept contacless now anyway.
4) Sainsburys have positioned the charging points further away for the hour-long shoppers, leaving the closer spaces free for those in a hurry. Win-win
5) I've saved £500 installing a home-charger.
6) I go to Sainsburys because they have charging points free. I see Tesco are adding more...
7) If weather good enough to go shopping, good enough to do charging.

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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412207

Postby AF62 » May 15th, 2021, 4:55 pm

JohnB wrote:1) If I can remember to get bags from the kitchen, I can remember the cable in the boot
2) Quicker to plug in the cable than buy a parking ticket from the machine
3) I've got a Nectar card, so why don't I have a charging account. All chargers accept contacless now anyway.
4) Sainsburys have positioned the charging points further away for the hour-long shoppers, leaving the closer spaces free for those in a hurry. Win-win
5) I've saved £500 installing a home-charger.
6) I go to Sainsburys because they have charging points free. I see Tesco are adding more...
7) If weather good enough to go shopping, good enough to do charging.


You have to buy a parking ticket at Sainsbury’s? Tesco is free.

The PodPoint chargers at Tesco don’t require any cards, but they do need you to use their poor app to confirm the charge.

Not only did you save £500 on a home charger, you saved 20 pence on electricity - the beers are on you!

But seriously, is it worth the hassle to get a few free kW.

9873210
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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412245

Postby 9873210 » May 15th, 2021, 6:53 pm

EV charging is still in the early phases. Experimentation is still needed. This is shown by plans to start with 53 bays and enlarge later. Hopefully if they are not filling the original bays they will not expand.

We need to get to the right mix which will almost certainly contain a far larger variety of options that are required for petrol stations. Even if one mode ends up dominating many others will have substantial niches.

Arguments like "It needs to work like a petrol station", "I would not use it so nobody would use it" or "I would use it so everybody would use it" are all equally silly. Although "I would use it" is a suitable rejoinder to "nobody would use it".

brightncheerful
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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412299

Postby brightncheerful » May 15th, 2021, 9:46 pm

How about affixing solar panels to the roof of the car? Or designing a car roof or better still a car body that doubles as a solar panel. That way wherever the car is and provided the sun is shining enough to the car could be charged.

Solar panel efficiency will be best in full, direct sunlight, but solar panels in cloudy weather or indirect sunlight will function.

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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412344

Postby AF62 » May 16th, 2021, 6:43 am

brightncheerful wrote:How about affixing solar panels to the roof of the car? Or designing a car roof or better still a car body that doubles as a solar panel. That way wherever the car is and provided the sun is shining enough to the car could be charged.

Solar panel efficiency will be best in full, direct sunlight, but solar panels in cloudy weather or indirect sunlight will function.


You might get one or two kWh per day if you covered every panel on the car, so that would give a range of four to eight miles in summer. Nice idea, no cigar.

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Re: UK largest EV charging hub

#412514

Postby DrFfybes » May 16th, 2021, 5:41 pm

brightncheerful wrote:How about affixing solar panels to the roof of the car? Or designing a car roof or better still a car body that doubles as a solar panel. That way wherever the car is and provided the sun is shining enough to the car could be charged.

Solar panel efficiency will be best in full, direct sunlight, but solar panels in cloudy weather or indirect sunlight will function.


VW used to offer this as an option on the Phaeton to run the aircon to keep the car cool when parked.


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