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Octavia battery v petrol costings

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Howard
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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415255

Postby Howard » May 26th, 2021, 10:54 am

Dod101 wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
Dod101 wrote:IT is clearly useful to have an idea of the comparison but surely the thing that matters is that an electric car, almost any electric car will be much cheaper to run on a day to day basis than a petrol one. That is really all that we need to know. However it is the capital costs that are so very much different, including the cost of whatever home charger you need.

Dod


Unfortunately, that is exactly what we do not know: refer to the first post in this thread.
Various people come up with different numbers, and when we hear people talking about this in the media, I get the impression the overall running costs of electric vehicles is not yet on a par with petrol ones.
There is a lot of confusion and uncertainty out there - and you cannot ignore the capital costs which seem pretty gross.

When you bear in mind the limitations of electric mileage, the possible risk of not being able to recharge, the length of charging, the cost of and longevity or otherwise of batteries and the doubt about their green credentials - it all adds to the doubt and will slow down adoption. There's no convincing reason to replace one's petrol of diesel car at present, apart from pressure to become more "green" - even if that's true.

It still seems like early very days to me. Hopefully, things will clarify over the next two years, especially when we see VW and others launch new models. Maybe at that time, people like me will look more seriously at the possibilities.

Arb.


I am likely to replace my current petrol driven Q5 with another in the next few months. I am not prepared to be a trail blazer, but despite your scepticism, it seems fairly obvious to me that day to day running costs for electric cars are cheaper than for a petrol one.. I however could not be bothered with all the faffing about that an electric car, unless a non plug in hybrid, would bring. And then I would probably just use it as a petrol car anyway. I am in a semi rural location, do not take my car into the city and most of my trips are in the 50/100 mile range. When I go into the city I take the train, so polish my green credentials that way.

Dod


I'm not seeking to persuade you to buy an electric car but the driving parameters you describe would make you an ideal candidate for a totally electric car. Our BEV has a range of 250 - 300 miles depending on the weather conditions. In Scotland in sub zero temperatures and howling winds perhaps it might be safe to assume just over 200 miles because you'd need to use the heater more.

It's much more convenient than a petrol car. It's easy to plug in and every morning it's full with a maximum range, if you choose this. No visits to petrol stations ever again. The car and battery are guaranteed for 7 years which would see out your normal replacement cycle.

The advantage in the winter is that a few minutes before you leave you can warm the interior of the car using the mains electricity so not affecting your range and wonderfully comfortable. (We did this often with our previous EV and it is a nice feature).

The cost per mile is low as described in my previous post.

However, it must be admitted that there are two major problems with BEVs as described by previous posters. One is the £500 + cost of installing a fast charger. Generally speaking, there is no hassle apart from the cost, in getting this installed as it takes about three hours for a specialist.

The second problem is, as you and others have described, to replace your Audi with a similar Audi BEV replacement will probably cost you significantly more. And this is a very significant drawback I agree.

I don't want to take the discussion away from the OP, but I was happy to pay a premium for a BEV and have been delighted with the KIA we drive (and in the past I have owned two Audis and other nice cars). To be honest, I now lease our cars as I am convinced that it is a better way to own a brand new car. As in all car purchases, I watched the leasing rates for the KIA I wanted (rated by "Which" as the second best BEV available in the UK, only beaten by a £90,000 Porsche!) and when they were favourable took advantage of a three year deal. I see some compelling Audi BEV deals occasionally but admittedly they are pretty expensive.

In summary, you would probably be delighted with an Audi BEV which would exceed all your motoring requirements. But it would be an expensive luxury.

regards

Howard

(The KIA is a second car so it's unlikely to be used for journeys over 250 miles.)

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415270

Postby Arborbridge » May 26th, 2021, 11:53 am

Howard wrote:
The second problem is, as you and others have described, to replace your Audi with a similar Audi BEV replacement will probably cost you significantly more. And this is a very significant drawback I agree.

I don't want to take the discussion away from the OP, but I was happy to pay a premium for a BEV and have been delighted with the KIA we drive (and in the past I have owned two Audis and other nice cars). To be honest, I now lease our cars as I am convinced that it is a better way to own a brand new car. As in all car purchases, I watched the leasing rates for the KIA I wanted (rated by "Which" as the second best BEV available in the UK, only beaten by a £90,000 Porsche!) and when they were favourable took advantage of a three year deal. I see some compelling Audi BEV deals occasionally but admittedly they are pretty expensive.

In summary, you would probably be delighted with an Audi BEV which would exceed all your motoring requirements. But it would be an expensive luxury.

regards

Howard

(The KIA is a second car so it's unlikely to be used for journeys over 250 miles.)


Thank you Howard, and I do remember your posting about how good your car is and that made me think that one day I shall certainly take the plunge. I did look up the cost of your car, and it's more than I would choose to spend. Leasing is still in the frame (someone recently came up with some impressive numbers for a Zoe) so I might go this way eventually.

By the way, mine's a Merc: but my next one probably won't be if it's electric!

Arb

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415288

Postby Dod101 » May 26th, 2021, 1:05 pm

Thanks Howard. Lots of food for thought. I must say I like the Q5. It is a good size, seems to cling to the road (via quattro driving of course) and it is good in the snow even with standard tyres. To add to my parameters, I will occasionally have a long distance drive 2/300 miles (as I am actually about to do next week which will be the first long trip for about 18 months!) It is a bit of a luxury even as it is but has been a reliable and safe form of transport.

I will need to consult the dealer and see what he can come up with. Not this week though.

Dod

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415302

Postby nmdhqbc » May 26th, 2021, 2:06 pm

Arborbridge wrote:Sorry, you are jumping the gun. The replies to the first post make assumptions of their own. We haven't yet heard back from the OP so and we haven't yet got to the bottom of the issue. Just because a couple of people have used their own assumptions and dismissed the original practical observations does not mean they are correct.

we will see. i'm fairly certain 3kw for 6 hours is not right so feel like my gun jump is not too much of a leap of faith.

Arborbridge wrote:I need that reconciliation to be agreed by BC rather than those who chipped in with thier own interpretation based on their own particularly enthusiastic agends.

i have no agenda whatsoever. i'm 50-50 at the moment on what my next car will be and currently driving a petrol. i'm 100% sure the one after will be electric though but probably true for most if they keep the next one for a decent amount of time. i'm just trying to look out for errors and make sure things are assessed fairly. i would have done the same if the OP had said that it took 5kWh to fill the 10.4kWh usable capacity battery from empty.

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415363

Postby 9873210 » May 26th, 2021, 5:34 pm

Arborbridge wrote:Well, they certainly attract enthusiasts who are totally convinced, but I also meet people whose opinion I respect who voice opposite concerns.
This one will run and run until there is more day to day information - and more choice of cars for ordinary people.

Arb.

When has an argument about cars every been settled by facts?

There are still people pining for carburetors, for pities sake.

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415526

Postby brightncheerful » May 27th, 2021, 11:21 am

Good morning. Lovely sunny day.

Silence tests patienceL had the same effect on Mrs Bnc too.

Thank you for your comments. I am not sure what i am supposed to be working on in this thread but certainly work for clients takes priority over my posting here (or anything much else for that matte. Just occasionally i wonder what it would be like to be retired but the thought of accompanying Mrs Bnc on her shopping expeditions is enough to regain my sense that what is more important is to apply my skills to help wealthy people maintain and become wealthier.

I'm not electronically or mechanically-minded: my calculations in the op were how I reckoned I should estimate the difference in cost of fuel (including electricity) without also factoring in the capital cost of the vehicle. Probably to the more knowledgeable to whom i bow my calculations are too simplistic.

I didn't buy a hybrid for its own sake. i bought the car because it has a large enough boot to accommodate puppy's crate and it was the only second-hand (ex-demo) model that the dealer had for sale hat was also automatic (DSG) on the day before I needed to buy. (I was about to buy a diesel Octavia Estate but a couple of hours before committing was advised not to. As it happens I think I'd have been better buying A Skoda Superb, but another time perhaps.)

As for 43 mph on petrol in winter from cold start, I've no idea. 43 mph was my average during ownership of my previous car, Audi A1. I live in rural area in England about a minute's drive from a speed limit 60 mph by-pass, the length of which takes about 5 minutes drive end to end, including several roundabouts. I am assuming, wrongly perhaps, that the Octavia's engine would warm up in the same time the Audi took (from home to the end furthest away: i shall check whether it does next time I go that way.

According to the Octavia handbook, using the heated seats (driver and front passenger seats0 in winter can be more economical than the heater.

Regarding capital cost, apart from time for charging there wouldn't seem to be any benefit in forking out £700 or so to charge in half the time just to save waiting a few more hours. On the principle that 6 hours is too long just to pass the time, I charged the car again this week whilst I was working. As my work is very time-consuming, often hours pass without my realising how long since I started. Having ascertained that I can charge overnight even if raining I think the likely capital cost of installing waterproof power point outside the garage would only add about £200 initally, the cost written off over 20-25 years. As i said in the op, i ignored the VAT and standing charge.

On balance, from the comments generally, it is apparent an electric car is more economical to run than petrol, To my way of thinking,, a hybrid is more of a novelty than anything else. 25 miles or so would enable me to drive into town and back about a dozen times. But to drive to Waitrose I would need to top-up the battery when i got back to ensure enough power to repeat the journey the following week.

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415600

Postby swill453 » May 27th, 2021, 3:22 pm

brightncheerful wrote:On balance, from the comments generally, it is apparent an electric car is more economical to run than petrol, To my way of thinking,, a hybrid is more of a novelty than anything else. 25 miles or so would enable me to drive into town and back about a dozen times. But to drive to Waitrose I would need to top-up the battery when i got back to ensure enough power to repeat the journey the following week.

I think you need to create a setup at your home with whatever socket/charger/cable you need so it's easy (a minute's effort at most) to plug it in at its usual parking spot at your home every time.

Then you'll get the most out out of it, without making it a planning effort.

Scott.

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415703

Postby servodude » May 27th, 2021, 11:46 pm

brightncheerful wrote:According to the Octavia handbook, using the heated seats (driver and front passenger seats) in winter can be more economical than the heater.


If you think about it that makes sense because you're insulating the heater by sitting on it (so it's not having to heat air and blow it towards you)
I wonder how well it demists the windscreen though :)

-sd

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415742

Postby DrFfybes » May 28th, 2021, 9:27 am

brightncheerful wrote:As it happens I think I'd have been better buying A Skoda Superb, but another time perhaps.)
[...]
According to the Octavia handbook, using the heated seats (driver and front passenger seats0 in winter can be more economical than the heater.


I tried to buy a Superb Estate just over 12 months ago. I coudn't find one with a flat load floor. Perhaps dropping the load floor 4 inches from the sill increases the loadspace, but it is absolutely hopelss for sliding concrete gravel boards, bedside cabinets, or dog crates in to.

As for the heating, a mate of mine works for Ford and he says their new diesel engines are so thermally efficient they had to design an auxillary heating system for the cabin, hence localised heating of the occupants uses less energy. The suggestion of modifying an Ann Summers product with a small heating element was rejected.

Paul

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415870

Postby brightncheerful » May 28th, 2021, 3:36 pm

swill453 wrote:
brightncheerful wrote:On balance, from the comments generally, it is apparent an electric car is more economical to run than petrol, To my way of thinking,, a hybrid is more of a novelty than anything else. 25 miles or so would enable me to drive into town and back about a dozen times. But to drive to Waitrose I would need to top-up the battery when i got back to ensure enough power to repeat the journey the following week.

I think you need to create a setup at your home with whatever socket/charger/cable you need so it's easy (a minute's effort at most) to plug it in at its usual parking spot at your home every time.

Then you'll get the most out out of it, without making it a planning effort.

Scott.


i agree. And shall be

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415873

Postby brightncheerful » May 28th, 2021, 3:43 pm

DrFfybes wrote:
brightncheerful wrote:As it happens I think I'd have been better buying A Skoda Superb, but another time perhaps.)
[...]
According to the Octavia handbook, using the heated seats (driver and front passenger seats0 in winter can be more economical than the heater.


I tried to buy a Superb Estate just over 12 months ago. I coudn't find one with a flat load floor. Perhaps dropping the load floor 4 inches from the sill increases the loadspace, but it is absolutely hopelss for sliding concrete gravel boards, bedside cabinets, or dog crates in to.

Paul


Years ago I had an Audi A4 with a sunroof. After a while unable to get the sunroof to close i discovered i had knackered the mechanism by carrying long planks of wood slid through the open roof onto the seats.

The Octavia estate I have has a flat load floor. I didn't know the Superb doesn't have the same.

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415895

Postby staffordian » May 28th, 2021, 4:51 pm

brightncheerful wrote:
DrFfybes wrote:
brightncheerful wrote:As it happens I think I'd have been better buying A Skoda Superb, but another time perhaps.)
[...]
According to the Octavia handbook, using the heated seats (driver and front passenger seats0 in winter can be more economical than the heater.


I tried to buy a Superb Estate just over 12 months ago. I coudn't find one with a flat load floor. Perhaps dropping the load floor 4 inches from the sill increases the loadspace, but it is absolutely hopelss for sliding concrete gravel boards, bedside cabinets, or dog crates in to.

Paul


Years ago I had an Audi A4 with a sunroof. After a while unable to get the sunroof to close i discovered i had knackered the mechanism by carrying long planks of wood slid through the open roof onto the seats.

The Octavia estate I have has a flat load floor. I didn't know the Superb doesn't have the same.

Some cars therse days, particularly ones with no spare wheel, have adjustable boot floors. They can be set at the lower position for maximum capacity or raised, often to the same level as the boot opening, for maximum convenience. Perhaps the Superb has this?

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415905

Postby 9873210 » May 28th, 2021, 5:44 pm

servodude wrote:
brightncheerful wrote:According to the Octavia handbook, using the heated seats (driver and front passenger seats) in winter can be more economical than the heater.


If you think about it that makes sense because you're insulating the heater by sitting on it (so it's not having to heat air and blow it towards you)
I wonder how well it demists the windscreen though :)

-sd


YMMV. Personally my hands get cold and a heat seater does nothing for me. A heated steering wheel helps a bit, but it's better if I can put hot air exactly where I want. Or replace the steering wheel with a joy stick so I can use pogies.*

* Which I've used driving a lift truck in a freezer.

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415908

Postby scrumpyjack » May 28th, 2021, 5:56 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
Mike4 wrote:
AF62 wrote:
No, whatever calculations you do all electric cars are cheap to run. They are just damned expensive to buy!


Quite so. Any figures that don't amortise the massive capital cost of getting access to those low marginal costs per mile, aren't properly valid in my opinion.

(Electric cars strike me as a little like crypto currencies at the moment, i.e. the technology is laden with uncertainty about its future viability. Both technologies have massive drawbacks and I think there is every possibility completely different technologies might yet emerge for either or both. History might yet consign rechargeable-battery-powered cars to the dustbin for a second time. I think it will take a generation for things to become clear though. Apologies for drifting off topic.)


Well, they certainly attract enthusiasts who are totally convinced, but I also meet people whose opinion I respect who voice opposite concerns.
This one will run and run until there is more day to day information - and more choice of cars for ordinary people.

Arb.


I'm very happy with my new ID4. Had its first decent run yesterday, round trip to visit friends in London of 128 miles, then plug into my PodPoint to top up - cost £3 (my cheap rate electricity cost 9.46p from SO Energy). OK the capital cost is high at present, but I suspect service costs will be lower, there are far fewer parts in an electric car and you don't need things like cam belt changes etc etc. Anyway, it's very nice to drive!

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415912

Postby Arborbridge » May 28th, 2021, 6:21 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:
I'm very happy with my new ID4. Had its first decent run yesterday, round trip to visit friends in London of 128 miles, then plug into my PodPoint to top up - cost £3 (my cheap rate electricity cost 9.46p from SO Energy). OK the capital cost is high at present, but I suspect service costs will be lower, there are far fewer parts in an electric car and you don't need things like cam belt changes etc etc. Anyway, it's very nice to drive!


AAMOI, I've just found a Whatcar" review in which they reckon the depreciation will be around £5.6k a year for the first three years.

Arb.

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415965

Postby servodude » May 29th, 2021, 12:32 am

9873210 wrote:
servodude wrote:
brightncheerful wrote:According to the Octavia handbook, using the heated seats (driver and front passenger seats) in winter can be more economical than the heater.


If you think about it that makes sense because you're insulating the heater by sitting on it (so it's not having to heat air and blow it towards you)
I wonder how well it demists the windscreen though :)

-sd


YMMV. Personally my hands get cold and a heat seater does nothing for me. A heated steering wheel helps a bit, but it's better if I can put hot air exactly where I want. Or replace the steering wheel with a joy stick so I can use pogies.*

* Which I've used driving a lift truck in a freezer.


Totally agree that hot air is the best.

Heated seats are good for creeping out a passenger who didn't expect you to turn it on... but they don't help visibility if your windshield has misted on the outside

-sd

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#415991

Postby Urbandreamer » May 29th, 2021, 9:11 am

servodude wrote:Totally agree that hot air is the best.

Heated seats are good for creeping out a passenger who didn't expect you to turn it on... but they don't help visibility if your windshield has misted on the outside

-sd


I think that the concept is that you apply heat where it is needed and not where it is not, there by saving energy (electricity).

For a long as I can recall rear windscreens have not been demisted by hot air. I can also remember some models of Ford car that had electric demisting and deicing of the front windscreen. It apparently worked better because you didn't have to wait for the engine to warm up to get hot air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmpROemcd4E

A bit of further research shows that it isn't just Ford who fit it.

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#416000

Postby Howard » May 29th, 2021, 9:57 am

servodude wrote:
9873210 wrote:
servodude wrote:
If you think about it that makes sense because you're insulating the heater by sitting on it (so it's not having to heat air and blow it towards you)
I wonder how well it demists the windscreen though :)

-sd


YMMV. Personally my hands get cold and a heat seater does nothing for me. A heated steering wheel helps a bit, but it's better if I can put hot air exactly where I want. Or replace the steering wheel with a joy stick so I can use pogies.*

* Which I've used driving a lift truck in a freezer.


Totally agree that hot air is the best.

Heated seats are good for creeping out a passenger who didn't expect you to turn it on... but they don't help visibility if your windshield has misted on the outside

-sd


Most cars have fancy rubber things called windscreen wipers which are used for mist on the outside. One could wait for global warming I suppose. ;)

I'll get my coat.

Howard

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#416004

Postby swill453 » May 29th, 2021, 10:04 am

servodude wrote:Totally agree that hot air is the best.

Heated seats are good for creeping out a passenger who didn't expect you to turn it on... but they don't help visibility if your windshield has misted on the outside

Having heated seats was the clincher when I was looking at two otherwise pretty identical 2nd hand cars last year.

Just been through a Scottish winter and didn't feel the need to use them once...

Scott.

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Re: Octavia battery v petrol costings

#416008

Postby Mike4 » May 29th, 2021, 10:10 am

Howard wrote:
servodude wrote:
9873210 wrote:
YMMV. Personally my hands get cold and a heat seater does nothing for me. A heated steering wheel helps a bit, but it's better if I can put hot air exactly where I want. Or replace the steering wheel with a joy stick so I can use pogies.*

* Which I've used driving a lift truck in a freezer.


Totally agree that hot air is the best.

Heated seats are good for creeping out a passenger who didn't expect you to turn it on... but they don't help visibility if your windshield has misted on the outside

-sd


Most cars have fancy rubber things called windscreen wipers which are used for mist on the outside. One could wait for global warming I suppose. ;)

I'll get my coat.

Howard


I must say, SD's comment puzzled me too. Mist on the inside is more of a problem that wipers make NO difference to in my experience.

The heated windscreen that my old Sierra Cosworth had (25 years ago!) was magic for this though, and for morning de-icing in a flash. I'm puzzled why all cars don't have heated screens nowadays.


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