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Mini Clubman Automatic All4

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PhaseThree

Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417007

Postby PhaseThree » June 3rd, 2021, 10:40 am

The gearbox is not a DCT, It is an AISIN AWF8F35. This is an 8-speed automatic torque converter gearbox specifically designed to be fitted with transverse engines.
This gearbox is currently used in a lot of front wheel drive cars from the likes of BMW/Mini, Citroen, Volvo, Toyota/Lexus etc.

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417040

Postby GeoffF100 » June 3rd, 2021, 11:57 am

Dod101 wrote:[However if a car runs into the back of me irrespective of where my foot might be there will be a collision anyway. Why if I put my car into park would I face any bigger a bill than otherwise?

If you are standing in a queue of traffic and a car runs into the back of you, there are three cases:

(1). Handbrake on. Bump on the back of your car. Press out the bump and respray it. Not your fault.

(2). Foot on brake pedal. Bumps on the back and front of your car and the back of the car in front. More expensive repair to your car, and a repair to the car in front. The collision with the car in front is your fault for not having the handbrake on.

(3). Car in park. Wrecked transmission (expensive automatic transmission in this thread). New transmission. Very expensive. Not your fault that the car was bumped, but your fault that the car was in park.

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417053

Postby redsturgeon » June 3rd, 2021, 12:33 pm

GeoffF100 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:[However if a car runs into the back of me irrespective of where my foot might be there will be a collision anyway. Why if I put my car into park would I face any bigger a bill than otherwise?

If you are standing in a queue of traffic and a car runs into the back of you, there are three cases:

(1). Handbrake on. Bump on the back of your car. Press out the bump and respray it. Not your fault.

(2). Foot on brake pedal. Bumps on the back and front of your car and the back of the car in front. More expensive repair to your car, and a repair to the car in front. The collision with the car in front is your fault for not having the handbrake on.

(3). Car in park. Wrecked transmission (expensive automatic transmission in this thread). New transmission. Very expensive. Not your fault that the car was bumped, but your fault that the car was in park.


Why would the car move more in case (2) than case (1) ?

John

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417057

Postby Dod101 » June 3rd, 2021, 12:51 pm

GeoffF100 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:[However if a car runs into the back of me irrespective of where my foot might be there will be a collision anyway. Why if I put my car into park would I face any bigger a bill than otherwise?

If you are standing in a queue of traffic and a car runs into the back of you, there are three cases:

(1). Handbrake on. Bump on the back of your car. Press out the bump and respray it. Not your fault.

(2). Foot on brake pedal. Bumps on the back and front of your car and the back of the car in front. More expensive repair to your car, and a repair to the car in front. The collision with the car in front is your fault for not having the handbrake on.

(3). Car in park. Wrecked transmission (expensive automatic transmission in this thread). New transmission. Very expensive. Not your fault that the car was bumped, but your fault that the car was in park.


I am afraid that I do not accept these scenarios. (1) I can more or less accept, although the bump could do more damage than you suggest. As you did not quite say, the other party's fault and should be little or no cost to me.

In scene (2) I do not understand that it follows that I damage the car in front, but even if I do, I would claim from the driver who rear ended me. I was sitting safely minding my own business. I have done so many times using my foot on the brake pedal. In fact it is as effective to avoid the car creeping forward just to put the gear stick to park, without actually activating the handbrake.

(3) may be a risk but as far as I know there is nothing to say that I need the car in park and the handbrake on at traffic lights. I usually do that if I am 'parking' my car but not at a brief stop at traffic lights. The car is not 'parked' there. I do not accept that I am at fault.

Dod

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417082

Postby GeoffF100 » June 3rd, 2021, 2:45 pm

You do not usually have people running into you at speed when you stop at traffic lights. In my experience, they are braking but do not quite make it. It was just a dent and paint job the last time it happened to me IIRC. It is nasty shock nonetheless.

The point is that in scenario (2), your foot is likely to come off the brake pedal. It is best not to run into the back of other cars. You might get away with it, but it is best to follow best practice.

You definitely should not engage park on an automatic box at traffic lights, for the reason that I have given.

I have done a little Google searching. You should not fail a DOT driving test if you do not engage your handbrake at traffic lights, unless you have done something else wrong, but you could pick up a fault in an Advanced Driving Test:

https://www.diaryofanadi.co.uk/?p=4700

It appears that the DOT examiner's manual has changed over the years, and the technology is also changing. What I was taught 45 years ago may have changed a little.

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417083

Postby staffordian » June 3rd, 2021, 3:03 pm

GeoffF100 wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Sitting in the vehicle say at traffic lights, switch the lever to park or keep your foot on the brake (which is why we often get red brake lights on a string of cars at traffic lights)

I took my test in an automatic, and I expect that you would fail if you did that. The approved procedure is to use your handbrake at traffic lights. You should never hold your foot on the brake pedal unless you are stopping very briefly. If you are first to stop at traffic lights and the next car runs into the back of you, your foot is likely to come off the brake pedal, which could result in a collision. If you put the car into park and someone runs into you, you will be facing a very expensive bill or insurance claim.

I've asked this before but don't recall any definitive answers.

I'm sure I read that some (all?) DSG systems dont disengage the clutches fully unless you apply the footbrake. In other words, if you stop at traffic lights and apply the handbrake then the clutch drags and wears.

You suggest that putting it in park at traffic lights is a no-no, and using the footbrake is also not correct which, if (and I accept I may be wrong on this or have misunderstood) what I said above is correct, means that the approved way is to apply the handbrake and thereby wear the clutch.

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417089

Postby GeoffF100 » June 3rd, 2021, 3:26 pm

staffordian wrote:I've asked this before but don't recall any definitive answers.

I'm sure I read that some (all?) DSG systems dont disengage the clutches fully unless you apply the footbrake. In other words, if you stop at traffic lights and apply the handbrake then the clutch drags and wears.

You suggest that putting it in park at traffic lights is a no-no, and using the footbrake is also not correct which, if (and I accept I may be wrong on this or have misunderstood) what I said above is correct, means that the approved way is to apply the handbrake and thereby wear the clutch.

The normal procedure that I was taught 45 years ago for my driving test, and about 20 years ago by an Advanced Driving Instructor is that you use the foot brake to stop, and then apply the handbrake if you are likely to stop more than briefly. Perhaps those DSG boxes can cope with that. I do not believe that there is a problem with the MMT in my Aygo. The link that I have given discusses this matter (and related issues) at huge length. I doubt that you will find a more comprehensive answer.
Last edited by GeoffF100 on June 3rd, 2021, 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417090

Postby Dod101 » June 3rd, 2021, 3:27 pm

GeoffF100 wrote:You do not usually have people running into you at speed when you stop at traffic lights. In my experience, they are braking but do not quite make it. It was just a dent and paint job the last time it happened to me IIRC. It is nasty shock nonetheless.

The point is that in scenario (2), your foot is likely to come off the brake pedal. It is best not to run into the back of other cars. You might get away with it, but it is best to follow best practice.

You definitely should not engage park on an automatic box at traffic lights, for the reason that I have given.

I have done a little Google searching. You should not fail a DOT driving test if you do not engage your handbrake at traffic lights, unless you have done something else wrong, but you could pick up a fault in an Advanced Driving Test:

https://www.diaryofanadi.co.uk/?p=4700

It appears that the DOT examiner's manual has changed over the years, and the technology is also changing. What I was taught 45 years ago may have changed a little.


I have just looked up my handbook and it tells me that I should 'Keep my foot on the brake pedal during a stop phase to prevent the vehicle from moving.' That seems both obvious and sensible and seems to me to cover the situation at traffic lights for instance. There is such a thing as being too technical about matters and modern car designers do not expect drivers to understand how things work. They are geared up for convenience and practicalities. For instance when you arrive at traffic lights showing red, brake by using the brake pedal and then, during the 'stop phase keep your foot on the brake pedal to prevent the vehicle from moving', just as the book says. A handbrake is now known as a parking brake for obvious reasons. I am very happy to continue with my current practices.

To be honest, I thought that you were quoting current practice/guidance. A lot has changed in 45 years with cars as well as other technical equipment.

Dod

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417109

Postby robbelg » June 3rd, 2021, 4:57 pm

My car has a feature such that when I come to a stop if I then press the brake harder it activates a HOLD feature ( appears on dash) and I can take my foot off the brake.
Clearly the designers think sitting with your foot on the brake is the normal and correct thing, this just automates it.

Rob

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417110

Postby quelquod » June 3rd, 2021, 5:01 pm

bluedonkey wrote:2018 and already two previous owners?


In these days of PCP finance not as uncommon as it used perhaps to be. Many people now change their car every year or two and at least as many change their car at warranty expiry / MOT time etc.

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417114

Postby quelquod » June 3rd, 2021, 5:09 pm

robbelg wrote:My car has a feature such that when I come to a stop if I then press the brake harder it activates a HOLD feature ( appears on dash) and I can take my foot off the brake.
Clearly the designers think sitting with your foot on the brake is the normal and correct thing, this just automates it.

Rob


Mine (BMW 5) has an optional HOLD setting which applies the brake once stopped and releases it on touching the throttle. I always have it activated as it’s yet another thing I don’t need to bother with (though it can give you a bit of a surprise if your right foot twitches!). Another change from yesteryear with automatics is that you were once recommended not to wear/heat the box unnecessarily by leaving it in Drive with the brake applied. As a by-the-way mine also switches the engine off when stopped though I generally disable this feature as I can’t imagine it’s mechanically beneficial for it to happen 20 times in the length of the town centre.

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417121

Postby 9873210 » June 3rd, 2021, 5:45 pm

GeoffF100 wrote:
It appears that the DOT examiner's manual has changed over the years, and the technology is also changing. What I was taught 45 years ago may have changed a little.


Yes automatic transmissions have changed. They are not the same as they were 45 or 20 years ago, and they are not the same on all cars. This means you need to drive differently than you did 45 years ago and may need to adjust to your particular vehicle (see the owners manual).

A 2014 Prius for example does not even have a hand brake. The P button on the console engages a parking pawl, not the brake. There is a foot operated parking brake but it's rather clunky to operate (I have to shift in my seat to use it).

Of course a Prius is largely drive by wire anyway so the car could do things like apply the parking pawl when you open the doors at zero mph. You have to trust the engineers who designed it, the other engineers who gave it a type certification, and the technical writers that wrote the fine operator's manual. Stop worrying about flooding the carburetor.

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417124

Postby GeoffF100 » June 3rd, 2021, 5:57 pm

robbelg wrote:My car has a feature such that when I come to a stop if I then press the brake harder it activates a HOLD feature ( appears on dash) and I can take my foot off the brake.
Clearly the designers think sitting with your foot on the brake is the normal and correct thing, this just automates it.

In the spirit of the ADI advice, which may still be current, you would activate HOLD when stopped in traffic, rather than just keep your foot on the brake, particularly with an automatic. That should be more secure if you get hit up the bum. Another issue raised in the link was brake lights dazzling other road users. Does HOLD turn off the brake lights, I wonder?

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417126

Postby swill453 » June 3rd, 2021, 6:00 pm

My VW DSG has autostart (or is it autostop?) where the engine switches off if stationary.

It works "properly" if you sit in Drive with a foot on the brake, and also in Park with handbrake either on or off.

It doesn't work properly (ie the engine comes on when it should be off) if you have it in Drive or Neutral with handbrake on and foot off the brake.

The designers obviously decided the latter 2 options shouldn't be done.

Scott.

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417131

Postby AF62 » June 3rd, 2021, 6:13 pm

robbelg wrote:My car has a feature such that when I come to a stop if I then press the brake harder it activates a HOLD feature ( appears on dash) and I can take my foot off the brake.
Clearly the designers think sitting with your foot on the brake is the normal and correct thing, this just automates it.

Rob


That is exactly what my automatic (electric) car does. Drive up to traffic lights and come to a halt, press brake pedal for one second and the autohold engages. Lights change and press the accelerator and the autohold disengages automatically. I have no idea whether the brake lights are on whilst autohold is engaged.

As an electric car there is no Park selection for the gears. It is Drive, Neutral, or Reverse, but all electronic, so you can pull up in Drive and just turn off the engine and the handbrake automatically engages and the car will be in Neutral the next time you get in.

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417141

Postby 9873210 » June 3rd, 2021, 7:04 pm

AF62 wrote:As an electric car there is no Park selection for the gears. It is Drive, Neutral, or Reverse, but all electronic, so you can pull up in Drive and just turn off the engine and the handbrake automatically engages and the car will be in Neutral the next time you get in.

Adding to this.

The names of many of the controls of a modern car need to be viewed as metaphors, similar to "dialing" a phone.

As an electric there are usually no gears. Driver, neutral and reverse are simply instructions to the motor controllers' software.

Calling these positions "gears" helps people understand how to operate the car normally, but it is misleading on secondary functions, such as leaving the car in gear when parked on a slope.

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417145

Postby swill453 » June 3rd, 2021, 7:20 pm

9873210 wrote:Calling these positions "gears" helps people understand how to operate the car normally, but it is misleading on secondary functions, such as leaving the car in gear when parked on a slope.

Anyone who's had an automatic will be used to that. Typically you can't even remove the key unless it's in Park.

Scott.

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417157

Postby 9873210 » June 3rd, 2021, 8:25 pm

swill453 wrote:
9873210 wrote:Calling these positions "gears" helps people understand how to operate the car normally, but it is misleading on secondary functions, such as leaving the car in gear when parked on a slope.

Anyone who's had an automatic will be used to that. Typically you can't even remove the key unless it's in Park.

Scott.


What is this "key" you speak of?

My point is that peoples stereotype of a car is usually several decades out of date and involves things that often don't exist.

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417168

Postby Dod101 » June 3rd, 2021, 9:10 pm

In my Q5, 'key' means ignition key and this cannot be extracted unless the gear stick (for want of better expression) is in Park. Is that difficult to understand?

My car is coming up for 5 years old but that is not decades old.

Dod

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Re: Mini Clubman Automatic All4

#417172

Postby Howard » June 3rd, 2021, 9:40 pm

Dod101 wrote:In my Q5, 'key' means ignition key and this cannot be extracted unless the gear stick (for want of better expression) is in Park. Is that difficult to understand?

My car is coming up for 5 years old but that is not decades old.

Dod


Most cars I have driven over the last few years have transmitters rather than keys. In an emergency power failure one can extract something like a high tech metal "key" from the plastic transmitter housing to open a door but I guess most drivers haven't ever had to do this.

I'm guessing when you change your car, if you get a new Audi you won't ever use a key again. You will be supplied a couple of transmitters.

Our BEV unlocks itself if one has the transmitter in one's pocket as one approaches and will start once the driver, with transmitter is inside so no "key" is ever used.

But, I admit that I might ask Mrs H, "have you seen my car key" when I have mislaid said transmitter :) .

regards

Howard


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