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nissan qashqai mild hybrid

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DrFfybes
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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432282

Postby DrFfybes » August 3rd, 2021, 5:09 pm

AF62 wrote:
jackdaww wrote:but i wonder how much the national electricity grid has to be upgraded to handle all the oil based power that is currently used on the roads .

is it double ? triple ? DAK ?

:?:


In relation to EV car users you have to consider when most people will be charging their car, and how frequently.

Already most charging happens overnight because that is when the cheap electricity is, and it is cheap because there is a surplus as others don’t want it (offices, shops, most homes, etc.) -


The big overnight electricity users used to be 24hr manufacturing plants, streetlights, and offices/shops (as for some reason they leave their lights on). With the witch to LED, and mant streetlights being off from 00:30 - 05:30, overnight demand is even lower, so spare capacity for charging vehicles is there but ONLY if we use wind or nuclear (or gas/coal, which we should be moving away from). Oddly it is less windy on average at night (someone could explain why, but farmers are usig GPS to giuder machines and shifting towards night spraying as it reduces 'drift' issues due to lower winds) but even so the surplus is there.

so does this mean that all our road oil based traffic power is just 10% of the power used for homes , factories , business's etc ??

that surprises me .



It used to be that transport was about 5% of either emissions or energy use (I can't remember), but yes, a surprisingly small amount.

The most concentrated users were heavy industry, steelworks etc, of which there are now very few.

The issue is still distribution, with domestic supplies capped or bundled into groups of homes with (say) a 150A supply as it is assumed that everybody doesn't draw their 60-100A all at once. Modern homes tend to have a higher rated supply, especially new builds where the underground infrastructure is newer, but some old rural places on overheads might still only have 30-45A supplies per property.

Paul

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432284

Postby 9873210 » August 3rd, 2021, 5:22 pm

PhaseThree wrote:What I do know is that just about every other manufacturer has decided to use 48V systems for their mild hybrid offerings (Think BMW, Merc, Ford, VW group, Kia,Volvo etc) and see/quote an average of 15% improvement. It may be that the engineers at Nissan have managed to engineer their 12V mild hybrid system in such a way that they can extract useful gains from such a system. Personally I would expect the torque generated to be too small to be of much use and the real world gains to be minimal

To first order the performance of electric motors, power electronics and batteries does not depend on voltage. It's a matter of parallel v. series windings and cells.

To second order it matters because lower voltage needs thicker, heavier, more expensive, connection between components. And eventually you run into problems having many components in parallel.

The choice is usually based on what's available rather than an optimization.

I will also add that there are 12V electric pallet trucks* that could move 3 qashqai** at 10 mph. Batteries and motors are larger than in a car, and the acceleration is nothing to write home about, but they will move the weight using 12V.

* Fork lifts, if you don't know what a pallet truck is.
** Getting 3 on the forks would be the hard part, might have to crush and palletize them.

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432285

Postby AF62 » August 3rd, 2021, 5:25 pm

DrFfybes wrote:Oddly it is less windy on average at night (someone could explain why, but farmers are usig GPS to giuder machines and shifting towards night spraying as it reduces 'drift' issues due to lower winds) but even so the surplus is there.

Paul


Lower winds at night - yes during the summer, but not in autumn and winter - https://wxguys.ssec.wisc.edu/2013/11/18 ... er-sunset/

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432292

Postby 9873210 » August 3rd, 2021, 5:44 pm

bungeejumper wrote:
jackdaww wrote:a petrol engine drives a generator which charges a battery which supplies a motor driving the wheels .

since all the power comes from the petrol engine , i can not see any significant advantage for global warming .

The advantage is that the petrol engine is kept constantly at its most optimally fuel-efficient output level. No wasteful bursts of acceleration, no excessive fuel-guzzling at high speeds. And the energy is then stored for release through the highly efficient electric motors. The same principle, in fact, as a diesel-electric locomotive.

BJ


Almost all diesel-electric locomotives do not have a traction battery. They have an auxiliary battery for starting and housekeeping, but traction energy is not stored, it is used as it is produced.

The reason for diesel electrics is that electric switching gear (and now power electronics) is cheaper, more available, and more reliable, than mechanical gear boxes of the needed size. (Fun fact, some 1920's USA battleships used turbo-electric drives for much the same reason).

Hybrid cars do time shift power production, limiting the needs for peak power production. But from the outside they are best viewed as petrol cars with electric transmissions. The only advantage from a climate perspective is the L/100km. Look at the window sticker or Which magazine, not the little logo on the boot.

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432294

Postby 9873210 » August 3rd, 2021, 5:53 pm

AF62 wrote:As it is I can see from the charts provided by the charger that it usually gives the car a half hour charge at the start of the cycle, I assume to check the information it is getting from the car about the battery status is accurate (the car and the charger are linked both through mobile phone networks to talk to each other), and then gives the bulk of the charge later in the charge period.


There may also be a question of making sure the car has some minimal range most of the time, in case there is a power failure or you need a trip to the hospital or similar. Just because you say you don't need to use it before 7AM doesn't mean you won't occasionally need to use it before 7AM.

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432314

Postby AF62 » August 3rd, 2021, 7:07 pm

9873210 wrote:
AF62 wrote:As it is I can see from the charts provided by the charger that it usually gives the car a half hour charge at the start of the cycle, I assume to check the information it is getting from the car about the battery status is accurate (the car and the charger are linked both through mobile phone networks to talk to each other), and then gives the bulk of the charge later in the charge period.


There may also be a question of making sure the car has some minimal range most of the time, in case there is a power failure or you need a trip to the hospital or similar. Just because you say you don't need to use it before 7AM doesn't mean you won't occasionally need to use it before 7AM.


It does it whether the car has 10% charge or 90% charge when it starts charging, so that seems unlikely.

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432331

Postby richlist » August 3rd, 2021, 8:36 pm

Why do some mild hybrids have higher emissions than non hybrids ?

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432348

Postby 9873210 » August 3rd, 2021, 10:33 pm

richlist wrote:Why do some mild hybrids have higher emissions than non hybrids ?


Because the people designing the car and the people buying the car do not prioritize low emissions.

Using a hybrid expands the envelope of what is possible. You can use it to add four wheel drive or blistering acceleration or more payload or quite a number of things that are not reduced emissions.

If you do not aim to reduce emissions you won't. Or the designers might not be very good.

It's pretty much the same answer as to "Why do some cars have higher emissions than other cars?"

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432400

Postby DrFfybes » August 4th, 2021, 9:07 am

AF62 wrote:
9873210 wrote:
AF62 wrote:As it is I can see from the charts provided by the charger that it usually gives the car a half hour charge at the start of the cycle, I assume to check the information it is getting from the car about the battery status is accurate (the car and the charger are linked both through mobile phone networks to talk to each other), and then gives the bulk of the charge later in the charge period.


There may also be a question of making sure the car has some minimal range most of the time, in case there is a power failure or you need a trip to the hospital or similar. Just because you say you don't need to use it before 7AM doesn't mean you won't occasionally need to use it before 7AM.


It does it whether the car has 10% charge or 90% charge when it starts charging, so that seems unlikely.


So when you plug it in, do you tell the system when you will be unplugging the car, or do you set it to charge after midnight (or whenever your cheap rate is)?

I can see an initial top up would be useful - as above what happens if you change your mind and need to nip out, or someone unplugs it, [1] or there is a power cut?

Paul
[1] Seems like a great teenage prank - unplugging cars charging on the street. More fun than knocking on doors and running away.

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432442

Postby staffordian » August 4th, 2021, 10:37 am

DrFfybes wrote:Seems like a great teenage prank - unplugging cars charging on the street. More fun than knocking on doors and running away.

As I understand it, the connection is locked in place once charging starts, (or maybe when the car is locked?) so it would be a case of actually breaking it to remove the plug from the vehicle.

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432444

Postby AF62 » August 4th, 2021, 10:46 am

DrFfybes wrote:
AF62 wrote:
9873210 wrote:
There may also be a question of making sure the car has some minimal range most of the time, in case there is a power failure or you need a trip to the hospital or similar. Just because you say you don't need to use it before 7AM doesn't mean you won't occasionally need to use it before 7AM.


It does it whether the car has 10% charge or 90% charge when it starts charging, so that seems unlikely.


So when you plug it in, do you tell the system when you will be unplugging the car, or do you set it to charge after midnight (or whenever your cheap rate is)?


I do not have it set to charge at specific times, although both the charger and the car allow that - you could set either the charger on a timer or the car on a timer. Instead I have told the charger what electricity tariff I am on and set it to charge at no more than 5.5p and then let the charger work it out when it needs to turn on and off.

The tariff I am on has a period from 20:30 to 01:30 (but other times are available to choose from) that the tariff falls to 5.5p, so when I plug the car in at 6pm the charger has a quick burst of power for a few seconds to confirm everything is good and then goes quiet until later.

I can then see from the charts the charger's app produces that there is a period of half an hour or so where the charger puts in charge at 20:30 before then going to sleep whilst it works out what time it needs to restart to hit the percentage target* I have set by 01:30.

*You don't have to just have a full charge you set charger to charge the battery to 50%, 70%, 90% 100% - whatever you want. You might pick a lower percentage ifyou got free charging at a location, say at work, and just needed enough charge to get there.

DrFfybes wrote:I can see an initial top up would be useful - as above what happens if you change your mind and need to nip out,


You just unplug it and do your errands and then plug it back in when you get back and it will carry on as before. As before, the car is set to charge immediately it is plugged in (so it works if I need to top up at a public charger when I am out) and my home charger will deliver charge to whatever is plugged in which needs charge when it is the cheap rate.

Theoretically this is a small risk as if I was away then some random person with an electric car could park at my house and charge, but that isn't likely to happen where I am, and if it did my phone would be notified that someone was charging so I could turn it off remotely, or if I was that worried I could simply set the charger to charge to 0% whilst I was away.

DrFfybes wrote:or there is a power cut?


Your car doesn't get charged! But if it is only a temporary cut then it just restarts itself and carries on where it left off.


DrFfybes wrote:or someone unplugs it, [1]


Paul
[1] Seems like a great teenage prank - unplugging cars charging on the street. More fun than knocking on doors and running away.


The cable is fixed to the charger (it is a 'tethered' cable) and the current standard for charging plugs is that they lock themselves into the car socket when plugged in and can then only be released by pressing a switch inside the car or on the remote control.

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432481

Postby DrFfybes » August 4th, 2021, 1:45 pm

AF62 wrote:
The tariff I am on has a period from 20:30 to 01:30 (but other times are available to choose from) that the tariff falls to 5.5p, so when I plug the car in at 6pm the charger has a quick burst of power for a few seconds to confirm everything is good and then goes quiet until later.

I can then see from the charts the charger's app produces that there is a period of half an hour or so where the charger puts in charge at 20:30 before then going to sleep whilst it works out what time it needs to restart to hit the percentage target* I have set by 01:30.


Aha - so not quite how I read your original post -

AF62 wrote:As it is I can see from the charts provided by the charger that it usually gives the car a half hour charge at the start of the cycle, I assume to check the information it is getting from the car about the battery status is accurate (the car and the charger are linked both through mobile phone networks to talk to each other), and then gives the bulk of the charge later in the charge period.


I read that as it charged as soon as you plugged it in, whereas what it does is a quick "handshake" when initially plugged in and then waits until your prescribed time to start charging.

It makes sense to do most of the required charging at the start, for the reasons mentioned before. Why it stops then restarts (or tails off and ramps up) seems odd, could even be something to do with a 'demand management' protocol the charger manufacturer uses to charge "off peak", which is generally after 11pm or midnight.

TBH I'd have though 20:30 - 11pm was pretty much in the peak domestic use for many households - TV, lights, dishwasher. Which supplier are you with that allows you to choose those hours?

Paul

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432514

Postby AF62 » August 4th, 2021, 4:16 pm

DrFfybes wrote:
AF62 wrote:
The tariff I am on has a period from 20:30 to 01:30 (but other times are available to choose from) that the tariff falls to 5.5p, so when I plug the car in at 6pm the charger has a quick burst of power for a few seconds to confirm everything is good and then goes quiet until later.

I can then see from the charts the charger's app produces that there is a period of half an hour or so where the charger puts in charge at 20:30 before then going to sleep whilst it works out what time it needs to restart to hit the percentage target* I have set by 01:30.


Aha - so not quite how I read your original post -

AF62 wrote:As it is I can see from the charts provided by the charger that it usually gives the car a half hour charge at the start of the cycle, I assume to check the information it is getting from the car about the battery status is accurate (the car and the charger are linked both through mobile phone networks to talk to each other), and then gives the bulk of the charge later in the charge period.


I read that as it charged as soon as you plugged it in, whereas what it does is a quick "handshake" when initially plugged in and then waits until your prescribed time to start charging.

It makes sense to do most of the required charging at the start, for the reasons mentioned before. Why it stops then restarts (or tails off and ramps up) seems odd, could even be something to do with a 'demand management' protocol the charger manufacturer uses to charge "off peak", which is generally after 11pm or midnight.

TBH I'd have though 20:30 - 11pm was pretty much in the peak domestic use for many households - TV, lights, dishwasher. Which supplier are you with that allows you to choose those hours?

Paul


Octopus Energy with their ‘Go Faster’ tariff.

Their ‘Go’ tariff is their standard EV tariff which gives four hours at 5p/kWh between 00:30 and 04:30, with the rest of the time at a normal price (iirc I am paying around 15p kWh) and a 25p day standing charge. It is a fixed 12 month tariff and requires a smart meter so they know was used when.

The ‘Go Faster’ tariff is an experimental tariff you can ask to join, and it allows you to request what start time you want (no earlier than 20:30) or what end time (no later than 06:30), and whether you want three, four, or five hours of cheap electricity at 4.5p, 5p, or 5.5p respectively.

I do take advantage of the cheap rate starting at 20:30 for the dishwasher, washing machine, and air-conditioning, and the cost saving by doing so probably offsets the cost of charging the car.

However, from looking at the prices they charge for their ‘Agile’ tariff, which has a constantly changing price every 30 minutes depending on the wholesale cost, the price (and thus I guess demand on the grid) spikes massively from 17:30 to 19:30, but the crashes away, presumably as people finish cooking their dinner and sitting down in front of the TV for the evening. There is some analysis here - https://guylipman.medium.com/analysis-o ... bb2b209a95

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432556

Postby 9873210 » August 4th, 2021, 10:28 pm

DrFfybes wrote:
It makes sense to do most of the required charging at the start, for the reasons mentioned before. Why it stops then restarts (or tails off and ramps up) seems odd,


One possibility:

Many types of battery deteriorate faster when they are fully charged or fully discharged. A smart charger could start quickly, if necessary, to get away from fully discharged, then wait at some intermediate charge state, topping up to fully charged just before the battery is taken off the charger and put into use. Of course with a timed cheap rate tariff "end of charge" and "put into use" are not quite the same, but there is still some advantage.

This has been suggested for phones. Predicting when the phone will come off of charge can save many hours a night of being held at 100% charge. This can add months, possibly years, to the batteries useful life. Ideally the phone would be at 100% charge for only a brief period -- just before you drop it in a pocket.

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432590

Postby AF62 » August 5th, 2021, 7:39 am

9873210 wrote:This has been suggested for phones. Predicting when the phone will come off of charge can save many hours a night of being held at 100% charge. This can add months, possibly years, to the batteries useful life. Ideally the phone would be at 100% charge for only a brief period -- just before you drop it in a pocket.


The last couple of versions of Apple’s software for iPhones does exactly this.with ‘optimised charging’. It only charges to 80% then holds there, only putting in the last 20% just before it guesses you need it.

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#432604

Postby jackdaww » August 5th, 2021, 8:05 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
AF62 wrote:
9873210 wrote:This has been suggested for phones. Predicting when the phone will come off of charge can save many hours a night of being held at 100% charge. This can add months, possibly years, to the batteries useful life. Ideally the phone would be at 100% charge for only a brief period -- just before you drop it in a pocket.


The last couple of versions of Apple’s software for iPhones does exactly this.with ‘optimised charging’. It only charges to 80% then holds there, only putting in the last 20% just before it guesses you need it.

I seem to recall Apple also incorporate software into the phone's operating system that reduces the battery capacity after several years anyway. To encourage purchase of a new phone. (Might be urban legend, but I do seem to recall legal challenges to Apple about this built in obsolescence in the USA a few years back?).

RVF


=================================

another aspect re phone batteries -

in the past , with some models , the battery could not be removed (for replacement) without cracking the screen , thus rendering the phone beyond economical repair .

i dont know if is still the case nowadays .

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#433400

Postby redsturgeon » August 9th, 2021, 9:35 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Correct. It was quite routine for me to fit a new battery once in a phone before I eventually replaced it. As far as I know, there's few or none available these days with user replaceable batteries. I haven't had one like that for some considerable time. I tend to keep phones about 3 or 4 years, 5 on occasion. There's little doubt that not having a user replaceable battery encourages a new phone earlier rather than later. Good point.

RVF


All iphone batteries are user replaceable...it depends on the user though.

I have just replaced the camera on my iphone XR and while the phone was apart it would have been simple to replace the battery too if it had needed it. It was not simple to take the phone apart, I'd admit, four different types of small screwdrivers, flat, phillips, triwing and pentalobe required plus hairdryer and splugers

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#433421

Postby bungeejumper » August 9th, 2021, 10:56 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:User replaceable used to mean that you slid the back up or down to release it, pulled the battery off its terminals and put a new one in.

Still does, if you're not an applesucker. :D

Veering vaguely back toward cars, I changed the battery on my old TomTom satnav without any trouble, and I'm thinking of replacing on my current four year old one. Yes, you need the spudger, and yes, you have to break the seal that invalidates your warranty, but it's not the least bit difficult. There are full how-tos on Youtube for most of these devices.

BJ

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#433437

Postby AF62 » August 9th, 2021, 11:39 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:
ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:Correct. It was quite routine for me to fit a new battery once in a phone before I eventually replaced it. As far as I know, there's few or none available these days with user replaceable batteries. I haven't had one like that for some considerable time. I tend to keep phones about 3 or 4 years, 5 on occasion. There's little doubt that not having a user replaceable battery encourages a new phone earlier rather than later. Good point.

RVF


All iphone batteries are user replaceable...it depends on the user though.

I have just replaced the camera on my iphone XR and while the phone was apart it would have been simple to replace the battery too if it had needed it. It was not simple to take the phone apart, I'd admit, four different types of small screwdrivers, flat, phillips, triwing and pentalobe required plus hairdryer and splugers

John

Well done.

All of that is way beyond the capability or confidence of your average user. User replaceable used to mean that you slid the back up or down to release it, pulled the battery off its terminals and put a new one in.

RVF


It is dead easy for your average iPhone user - walk into an Apple store and hand over £49 or £69 and bingo, done.

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Re: nissan qashqai mild hybrid

#433447

Postby redsturgeon » August 9th, 2021, 12:12 pm

AF62 wrote:
It is dead easy for your average iPhone user - walk into an Apple store and hand over £49 or £69 and bingo, done.


Where's the sense of satisfaction in that. :)


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