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Super Duper

Passion, instruction, buying, care, maintenance and more, any form of vehicle discussion is welcome here
DrFfybes
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Super Duper

#438821

Postby DrFfybes » September 1st, 2021, 10:13 am

So, E10 unleaded is now the 'norm', although I gather a lot of fuel labelled E10 will still actually be E5 for a while (as it has been since the labels switched) as some sites do not have the tanks to process different grades.

Of course Super is still E5, which means Ye Olde Toyota might be a bit more expensive to run from now on. I suspect V8's collection of vintage exotica will suffer similarly.

Apparently E10 is 1.6% less energy intensive than E5, which means at about 15 bn litres sold annually and 60p/L in duty an extra £144M per year in tax.

Paul

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Re: Super Duper

#438824

Postby Dod101 » September 1st, 2021, 10:20 am

DrFfybes wrote:So, E10 unleaded is now the 'norm', although I gather a lot of fuel labelled E10 will still actually be E5 for a while (as it has been since the labels switched) as some sites do not have the tanks to process different grades.

Of course Super is still E5, which means Ye Olde Toyota might be a bit more expensive to run from now on. I suspect V8's collection of vintage exotica will suffer similarly.

Apparently E10 is 1.6% less energy intensive than E5, which means at about 15 bn litres sold annually and 60p/L in duty an extra £144M per year in tax.

Paul


I have not noticed. Does that mean that E10 petrol is now the cheaper of the two petrols offered? Does your comment re less energy intensive mean that for the same output I will use more E10 petrol and hence fewer miles per gallon?

Dod

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Re: Super Duper

#438845

Postby Dod101 » September 1st, 2021, 11:03 am

ReallyVeryFoolish wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
DrFfybes wrote:So, E10 unleaded is now the 'norm', although I gather a lot of fuel labelled E10 will still actually be E5 for a while (as it has been since the labels switched) as some sites do not have the tanks to process different grades.

Of course Super is still E5, which means Ye Olde Toyota might be a bit more expensive to run from now on. I suspect V8's collection of vintage exotica will suffer similarly.

Apparently E10 is 1.6% less energy intensive than E5, which means at about 15 bn litres sold annually and 60p/L in duty an extra £144M per year in tax.

Paul


I have not noticed. Does that mean that E10 petrol is now the cheaper of the two petrols offered? Does your comment re less energy intensive mean that for the same output I will use more E10 petrol and hence fewer miles per gallon?

Dod

Yes.

And yes, but you may not notice.

RVF


Thanks I am sure I will not because I have just acquired that almost new Q5 I mentioned a few weeks ago but I would like to know the background.

Dod

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Re: Super Duper

#438865

Postby bungeejumper » September 1st, 2021, 11:47 am

I took a look at the govt's information site (https://check-vehicle-compatibility-e10 ... ce.gov.uk/) this morning and was a bit surprised at how many cars were flagged up as unsuitable for E10.

As a general rule, anything built since about 2002 seems to be okay, but.......

A brief (and very partial) list-check showed that two litre Toyotas and quite a few small Fiats of much more recent vintage were on the iffy list. As were some 1.8 Mondeos. And a fair few Audis, although some of those seem to be because the (petrol?) heaters don't like E10.

Finally, if you're driving a Rover, the marque ain't there at all. N'existe plus, so you can't find out either way.

OTOH, I note that the RAC is sounding relaxed about mis-fuelling. If you accidentally get a tankful of E10, it says, just burn off a third of it and replenish with E5.

BJ

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Re: Super Duper

#438870

Postby Dod101 » September 1st, 2021, 11:55 am

Even the Audis mentioned are all fairly old models.

Dod

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Re: Super Duper

#438889

Postby bungeejumper » September 1st, 2021, 12:31 pm

Dod101 wrote:Even the Audis mentioned are all fairly old models.

True, but you're a new car buyer, and others aren't. There are a lot of the old monsters still around out here in the sticks. My rural neighbours run an 02 Volvo, an 03 Impreza and an 04 Golf as their daily drives. Farmer has a pair of antique Hiluxes, which stubbornly refuse to die. And the local kids do seem to get a lot of years out of their Corsas. Until they crash them. :lol:

BJ

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Re: Super Duper

#438895

Postby Dod101 » September 1st, 2021, 12:44 pm

bungeejumper wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Even the Audis mentioned are all fairly old models.

True, but you're a new car buyer, and others aren't. There are a lot of the old monsters still around out here in the sticks. My rural neighbours run an 02 Volvo, an 03 Impreza and an 04 Golf as their daily drives. Farmer has a pair of antique Hiluxes, which stubbornly refuse to die. And the local kids do seem to get a lot of years out of their Corsas. Until they crash them. :lol:

BJ


Yes and I guess these are the very ones that ought to be removed from today's roads in the name of reducing carbon emissions. I assume that that is the point of the price penalty.

Dod

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Re: Super Duper

#438922

Postby DrFfybes » September 1st, 2021, 1:30 pm

Dod101 wrote:
Yes and I guess these are the very ones that ought to be removed from today's roads in the name of reducing carbon emissions. I assume that that is the point of the price penalty.

Dod


You are misunderstanding.

ALL standard unleaded fuel is now 10% ethanol, up from 5% previously. This means it is greener, because land previously used for food or forestry is now used to grow plants that are fermented to produce "bioethanol" to be added to the fuel.

The price is unaffected, however the fuel has less energy intensity so in theory you will use more.

However for the time being, Superunleaded (98 Octane) as to remain at 5% ethanol, so cars and bikes that cannot cope with the 10% ethanol can continue to use that fuel, albeit with the price premium it carries.

In reality it isn't going to kill the cars quickly, Brazil runs about 25% ethanol and has been for years, probably as they have more forest to ferment into fuel and less money to buy oil. Brazil has a lot of older cars. However even 5% ethanol can cause problems, a lot of 1980s motorcycles ad plastic tanks which would warp with the ethanol, and fuel line seals can perish, and that's without considering corrosion due to the increased water absorption of the higher ethanol fuel.

So basically penalising the poorer people who cannot afford a newer car.

Paul

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Re: Super Duper

#438939

Postby richlist » September 1st, 2021, 2:13 pm

I'd suggest it depends on which direction you are looking from.....

Poorer people will be disadvantaged but richer people will have to put up with the new fuel and get worse fuel consumption which
also disadvantages them. Half the cars on the road are diesels anyway.

All my rich friends are buying electric vehicles for everyday running around.

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Re: Super Duper

#438951

Postby Dod101 » September 1st, 2021, 3:00 pm

DrFfybes wrote:
Dod101 wrote:
Yes and I guess these are the very ones that ought to be removed from today's roads in the name of reducing carbon emissions. I assume that that is the point of the price penalty.

Dod


You are misunderstanding.

ALL standard unleaded fuel is now 10% ethanol, up from 5% previously. This means it is greener, because land previously used for food or forestry is now used to grow plants that are fermented to produce "bioethanol" to be added to the fuel.

The price is unaffected, however the fuel has less energy intensity so in theory you will use more.

However for the time being, Superunleaded (98 Octane) as to remain at 5% ethanol, so cars and bikes that cannot cope with the 10% ethanol can continue to use that fuel, albeit with the price premium it carries.

In reality it isn't going to kill the cars quickly, Brazil runs about 25% ethanol and has been for years, probably as they have more forest to ferment into fuel and less money to buy oil. Brazil has a lot of older cars. However even 5% ethanol can cause problems, a lot of 1980s motorcycles ad plastic tanks which would warp with the ethanol, and fuel line seals can perish, and that's without considering corrosion due to the increased water absorption of the higher ethanol fuel.

So basically penalising the poorer people who cannot afford a newer car.

Paul


I do not know why you say I am misunderstanding. Your explanation certainly outlines my understanding and if I am correct, the next time I go to refuel my 2020 registered car I will do as I have always done and go for the standard petrol, only the next it time will have 10% ethanol added rather than 5%. If I want 5% only, then I need to pay a higher price. I have no need for that so will not do so. The irony as you say is that those running much older cars will need to buy the premium fuel (98 octane) which they do not need simply to get petrol with the lower ethanol content. In time that ought to accelerate the move from those older cars which will be good for us all, or so we are told.

I am surprised that there has not been an outcry about this. Maybe that is still to come.

Dod

Dod

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Re: Super Duper

#439022

Postby AF62 » September 1st, 2021, 7:23 pm

Dod101 wrote:I am surprised that there has not been an outcry about this. Maybe that is still to come.


I doubt most people pay any attention to what they fill up with - pull into the petrol station, and just pull out the green handle pump.

And even if they did know, then as the vast majority of the cars on the non-compatible list are either 'sheds' worth £500 or classics worth £50k then the former won't worry if it dies in five years because of the extra ethanol and the latter probably drive so few miles that the few extra pence on super unleaded will make no difference.

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Re: Super Duper

#439086

Postby Dod101 » September 1st, 2021, 9:38 pm

Certainly there was a reporter at a petrol station on the news this evening and hardly anyone knew anything about ethanol or what is does or its effects on different cars.

Dod

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Re: Super Duper

#439114

Postby airbus330 » September 2nd, 2021, 12:04 am

Good help your petrol lawnmower if you leave it over winter with a full tank of E10 in it. I nice load of goo in the fuel lines ready for Spring. BTW Esso Synergy Supreme+ is zero ethanol even though the pumps say E5.
I've been doing Regular vs. Premium on various vehicles over the last 5 years. Demonstrably better MPG and, at least for my Ducati, better performance.

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Re: Super Duper

#439150

Postby bungeejumper » September 2nd, 2021, 8:45 am

airbus330 wrote:I've been doing Regular vs. Premium on various vehicles over the last 5 years. Demonstrably better MPG and, at least for my Ducati, better performance.

I think that's an octane issue, though? AFAIK, the new E10 is 95 octane just like the current E5? (Which is confusingly labelled "Premium" at my garage, as distinct from "Super Premium" :| )

But yes, it depends on the car (or bike). My old '95 Citroen Xantia used to get 5 mpg more out of 98 octane petrol, which was nice in France because it cost so little extra over the standard cooking 95. I don't think I've ever had that with any other modern engine, though.

I'm happy to be corrected, but I've heard that many modern fuel injection systems nullify the effects of 98 octane because their little electronic brains simply tweak the combustion settings back to where they "ought to be", and you don't get any extra benefit. But thanks for the tip about the lawnmower!

BJ

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Re: Super Duper

#439271

Postby MyNameIsUrl » September 2nd, 2021, 4:20 pm

airbus330 wrote:Good help your petrol lawnmower if you leave it over winter with a full tank of E10 in it. I nice load of goo in the fuel lines ready for Spring.

Presumably my 1970s classic Fiat will suffer in the same way? It never goes out in winter. Is the goo from softened pipes/seals or thickening of the petrol? Can I avoid the problem by using E5?

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Re: Super Duper

#439289

Postby airbus330 » September 2nd, 2021, 5:26 pm

MyNameIsUrl wrote:
airbus330 wrote:Good help your petrol lawnmower if you leave it over winter with a full tank of E10 in it. I nice load of goo in the fuel lines ready for Spring.

Presumably my 1970s classic Fiat will suffer in the same way? It never goes out in winter. Is the goo from softened pipes/seals or thickening of the petrol? Can I avoid the problem by using E5?


Ethanol is hygroscopic, attracts water molecules. At a saturation point the ethanol/water mix falls out of suspension and forms a glue like gunge which can block fuel lines and is particularly likely to form in the bottom of carburetors of old vehicles, after which it has to be mechanically removed. The longer you leave your vehicle unused the more likely it will occur. E10 will make it more likely due to the increase in ethanol. Fuel stabilisers will help (as RVF suggested), but if you are laying up a vehicle up for winter I'd drain the tank and the fuel bowls. This is particularly true if you have a vehicle with a plastic fuel tank as the chemical mix can react and cause the tank to deform or blister.

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Re: Super Duper

#439339

Postby richlist » September 2nd, 2021, 10:19 pm

Why would the fuel damage the same plastic tank over the same period of time during the summer ? My plastic tanked mower has a virtually full tank of fuel from March until September.

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Re: Super Duper

#439340

Postby didds » September 2nd, 2021, 10:23 pm

airbus330 wrote:Good help your petrol lawnmower if you leave it over winter with a full tank of E10 in it. I nice load of goo in the fuel lines ready for Spring. BTW Esso Synergy Supreme+ is zero ethanol even though the pumps say E5.
I've been doing Regular vs. Premium on various vehicles over the last 5 years. Demonstrably better MPG and, at least for my Ducati, better performance.



so lawnmaowerrs can use E10?

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Re: Super Duper

#439346

Postby quelquod » September 2nd, 2021, 10:51 pm

richlist wrote:Why would the fuel damage the same plastic tank over the same period of time during the summer ? My plastic tanked mower has a virtually full tank of fuel from March until September.


And anyway so far as the “gunge” goes E10 is “only” twice as bad as E5 and despite all the warnings I’ve never drained my mower or my scarifier (which sits idle much longer) in my life and they’ve always started and run fine when required. No one that I know bothers to either.

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Re: Super Duper

#439350

Postby airbus330 » September 2nd, 2021, 11:20 pm

didds wrote:
airbus330 wrote:Good help your petrol lawnmower if you leave it over winter with a full tank of E10 in it. I nice load of goo in the fuel lines ready for Spring. BTW Esso Synergy Supreme+ is zero ethanol even though the pumps say E5.
I've been doing Regular vs. Premium on various vehicles over the last 5 years. Demonstrably better MPG and, at least for my Ducati, better performance.



so lawnmaowerrs can use E10?


Yes they can, assuming the engine is suitable for e10. I'd imagine the manual will say.


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