BEV replacement battery cost.

[BullDog]

I understand that battery life in the thousands of Toyota Prius taxis has exceeded expectations by a large margin. There a lot of very high mileage quite old ones in the taxi fleet.

[Watis]

I understand that battery life in the thousands of Toyota Prius taxis has exceeded expectations by a large margin. There a lot of very high mileage quite old ones in the taxi fleet.

Indeed. Taxi drivers would have abandoned the Prius in their droves had it been either unreliable or expensive to run.

I was in a Toyota dealer the other day and was advised that, on their current cars, the batteries now come with a 15 year warranty. I recall it being 8 years last time I looked.

Watis

[bungeejumper]

I understand that battery life in the thousands of Toyota Prius taxis has exceeded expectations by a large margin. There a lot of very high mileage quite old ones in the taxi fleet.

Ah yes, but unless I've missed something (quite possible! ), a Prius is a hybrid, not a true BEV. Its batteries are lead-acid, and a full set for the early ones (remanufactured) costs between £300 and £1,000. But a set for the Mk3 onwards would set you back nearly six grand, plus fitting. (https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/ ... lete-guide)

Now, you could argue that £600 a year over a ten year life span is a reasonable cost burden for batteries. Errr, I'm sure somebody could?

BJ

[BullDog]

I understand that battery life in the thousands of Toyota Prius taxis has exceeded expectations by a large margin. There a lot of very high mileage quite old ones in the taxi fleet.

Indeed. Taxi drivers would have abandoned the Prius in their droves had it been either unreliable or expensive to run.

I was in a Toyota dealer the other day and was advised that, on their current cars, the batteries now come with a 15 year warranty. I recall it being 8 years last time I looked.

Watis

Yes. Even better, the warranty is retrospective as long as the car is serviced at a Toyota dealer. Our 6 year old Yaris hybrid has it's standard 5 year warranty extended by one year each time it is serviced up to 10 years. The battery for 15 years. Not bad. And surprisingly, the cost of servicing at a Toyota dealer is no different to an independent garage. I checked the cost of a service, MOT and rear brake disc change a few months ago. The dealer and the independent quoted very similar prices. So I stuck with the Toyota dealer to keep the warranty. I can't fault the little hybrid Yaris. For what it is, it's brilliant. MPG is consistently excellent.

[bungeejumper]

Yes. Even better, the warranty is retrospective as long as the car is serviced at a Toyota dealer. Our 6 year old Yaris hybrid has it's standard 5 year warranty extended by one year each time it is serviced up to 10 years. The battery for 15 years. Not bad. And surprisingly, the cost of servicing at a Toyota dealer is no different to an independent garage. I checked the cost of a service, MOT and rear brake disc change a few months ago. The dealer and the independent quoted very similar prices. So I stuck with the Toyota dealer to keep the warranty. I can't fault the little hybrid Yaris. For what it is, it's brilliant. MPG is consistently excellent.

+1 to all of that. Happy Toyota customer here - the cheap dealer servicing on my Corolla/Auris (and now the extended Relax warranty up to ten years, if you use the Toyota servicing network) are all brilliant. It still ain't a BEV, though.

BJ

[tsr2]

Apparently a replacement battery for Tesla modelS is $22k. It appears some people think it is cheaper to throw the whole car away and start again.....

https://electrek.co/2021/12/23/tesla-ow ... placement/

Not the typical Finnish reaction

Paul

There is also a recent report of a Model S that has done 1,500,000 km (more than 900,000 miles). The first battery failed at around 180,000 miles, the second battery is still going strong after around 750,000 miles.

[tsr2]

Apparently a replacement battery for Tesla modelS is $22k. It appears some people think it is cheaper to throw the whole car away and start again.....

https://electrek.co/2021/12/23/tesla-ow ... placement/

Not the typical Finnish reaction

Paul

The first battery failed at around 180,000 miles, the second battery is still going strong after around 750,000 miles.

That's not quite right. There was apparently a "loaner battery" installed for a while, so it's the 3rd battery, but the "loaner" is not reported as having failed. The current battery has apparently done around 650,000 miles.

[9873210]

a Prius is a hybrid, not a true BEV. Its batteries are lead-acid, and a full set for the early ones (remanufactured) costs between £300 and £1,000. But a set for the Mk3 onwards would set you back nearly six grand, plus fitting. (https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/ ... lete-guide)

Prius batteries are not lead-acid. The first four generations used NiMH, the fifth generation (introduced in 2015) uses Li-ion.
(IIRC a few earlier plugins also had Li-ion).

There is also a 12V lead acid battery to run accessories, but this has nothing to do with the hybrid system.

Your costs for replacement are also questionable on the high side.

[bungeejumper]

Prius batteries are not lead-acid. The first four generations used NiMH, the fifth generation (introduced in 2015) uses Li-ion. (IIRC a few earlier plugins also had Li-ion).

There is also a 12V lead acid battery to run accessories, but this has nothing to do with the hybrid system.

You are of course correct, thanks.

But on the cost of replacement for the Li-ion, the very lowest estimate I can find online is £4,000 plus VAT. (That would be for a new unit - reconditioned batteries can be had for £1,500 or so.) Plus fitting, which is pricey.

It still seems rather a lot, considering that the Prius's battery is rated at only 8.8 kilowatt hours. Thank goodness for the extended warranty, then. Toyota are clearly putting a lot of money underneath their confidence-building guarantees, which are probably better than anybody else's at the moment.

It'll be interesting to see what their first true BEV can do. Due out this year, at £42K to £52K, with a 280 mile range. https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/35 ... bespoke-ev .

BJ

[9873210]

Prius batteries are not lead-acid. The first four generations used NiMH, the fifth generation (introduced in 2015) uses Li-ion. (IIRC a few earlier plugins also had Li-ion).

There is also a 12V lead acid battery to run accessories, but this has nothing to do with the hybrid system.

You are of course correct, thanks.

But on the cost of replacement for the Li-ion, the very lowest estimate I can find online is £4,000 plus VAT. (That would be for a new unit - reconditioned batteries can be had for £1,500 or so.) Plus fitting, which is pricey.

It still seems rather a lot, considering that the Prius's battery is rated at only 8.8 kilowatt hours. Thank goodness for the extended warranty, then. Toyota are clearly putting a lot of money underneath their confidence-building guarantees, which are probably better than anybody else's at the moment.

BJ

There is a very thin market for aftermarket Prius Li-ion replacements. There have been few failures and almost all of them are still under warrantee. This gives little incentive for aftermarket replacements. The same situation existed for the older NiMH five years ago, but that has since changed, with cheaper replacements. I'd expect the same with the Li-ion, once there are indications they will sell in any quantity.

In any case a reconditioned battery may be appropriate for an older (out of warrantee) vehicle. Some come with a three year warrantee, and it is not unknown to put a reconditioned engine (with a 3 month warrantee) in a 12 year old car.

[Howard]

On the subject of BEV batteries.

For anyone considering a BEV, a heated steering wheel is absolutely brilliant in this weather. An essential feature in my view.

To reduce the drain on the battery and give a longer range, the makers of BEVs encourage the use of heated seats and steering wheel as these, apparently use less power than the fan heater pumping hot air into the whole car, especially on a long journey. (Last time I looked at Tesla driver forums, there were a lot of comments on range reduction in cold and wet weather).

Our BEV seats and wheel heat up in literally the first 50 yards of driving. I now don't wear gloves to drive. The immediate heat from the fan heater is excellent for demisting and defrosting. It's much faster than my ICE car (pun intended ).

All the heaters are on thermostats so they don't overheat.

Ignoring the advice to turn the heater down, our BEV's real range appears to drop from a summer 300 miles to around 250 miles in cold, windy, wet weather. To be honest we haven't tested it on a really long journey because I put my gloves on and drive the ICE car with the cold steering wheel for a 200 mile plus journey.

regards

Howard

[Arborbridge]

On the subject of BEV batteries.

For anyone considering a BEV, a heated steering wheel is absolutely brilliant in this weather. An essential feature in my view.

To reduce the drain on the battery and give a longer range, the makers of BEVs encourage the use of heated seats and steering wheel as these, apparently use less power than the fan heater pumping hot air into the whole car, especially on a long journey. (Last time I looked at Tesla driver forums, there were a lot of comments on range reduction in cold and wet weather).

Our BEV seats and wheel heat up in literally the first 50 yards of driving. I now don't wear gloves to drive. The immediate heat from the fan heater is excellent for demisting and defrosting. It's much faster than my ICE car (pun intended ).

All the heaters are on thermostats so they don't overheat.

Ignoring the advice to turn the heater down, our BEV's real range appears to drop from a summer 300 miles to around 250 miles in cold, windy, wet weather. To be honest we haven't tested it on a really long journey because I put my gloves on and drive the ICE car with the cold steering wheel for a 200 mile plus journey.

regards

Howard

Heated seats I loved on my Saab - a real luxury in winter. I've read the advice on BEVs about economising by using the heated steering wheel and seats, but I really don't entirely "buy it". I don't have a cold bum when I'm driving: I might be cold at the front or particularly round the ankles, but not my back. Even though the heater there is pleasant it isn't a substitute for proper heating.

All we are doing is clutching at straws trying to make the BEV work as well as it should - i.e. have a range which is acceptable compared with an ICE.


Arb.

[Howard]

On the subject of BEV batteries.

For anyone considering a BEV, a heated steering wheel is absolutely brilliant in this weather. An essential feature in my view.

To reduce the drain on the battery and give a longer range, the makers of BEVs encourage the use of heated seats and steering wheel as these, apparently use less power than the fan heater pumping hot air into the whole car, especially on a long journey. (Last time I looked at Tesla driver forums, there were a lot of comments on range reduction in cold and wet weather).

Our BEV seats and wheel heat up in literally the first 50 yards of driving. I now don't wear gloves to drive. The immediate heat from the fan heater is excellent for demisting and defrosting. It's much faster than my ICE car (pun intended ).

All the heaters are on thermostats so they don't overheat.

Ignoring the advice to turn the heater down, our BEV's real range appears to drop from a summer 300 miles to around 250 miles in cold, windy, wet weather. To be honest we haven't tested it on a really long journey because I put my gloves on and drive the ICE car with the cold steering wheel for a 200 mile plus journey.

regards

Howard

Heated seats I loved on my Saab - a real luxury in winter. I've read the advice on BEVs about economising by using the heated steering wheel and seats, but I really don't entirely "buy it". I don't have a cold bum when I'm driving: I might be cold at the front or particularly round the ankles, but not my back. Even though the heater there is pleasant it isn't a substitute for proper heating.

All we are doing is clutching at straws trying to make the BEV work as well as it should - i.e. have a range which is acceptable compared with an ICE.


Arb.

Sorry, I don't agree. No clutching at straws. In my experience a modern BEV is actually superior as a second car especially used for short journeys. It's wonderfully practical and comfortable in very cold weather. Don't get one if it is your only car and you want to regularly go on journeys of over 250 miles and don't want to spend some time charging.

I don't think current BEVs are trying to to "have a range which is acceptable compared with an ICE." They aren't designed for this yet. Even a long range Tesla won't achieve this.

Frankly, for a one car family I personally would be wary of buying a car with a real range of less than 200 miles. Probably worth waiting for a future BEV with a range of over 400 miles.

BEVs work well in my experience of driving several. But for long range travel, they aren't yet competing with diesels nor with petrol cars like ours with a 600 mile range.

regards

Howard

[Howard]

I probably should have added to my previous post that for BEV owners who want to protect their batteries it is advised not to continuously charge the car to 100% and not to let the car regularly go below 20%. A maximum of 80% is recommended. This means that a car with a real max range of 200 miles will normally only be charged up to a maximum of 160 miles by a careful owner and wouldn't regularly be driven to below 40 miles range.

That is a fairly compelling reason for a one car family not to go for a lower range car unless it is used mainly for shorter journeys.

Even as a driver of a leased car which will go back in three years from new, I generally follow the above guidance. If I owned the car for the longer term, I'd follow it assiduously.

regards

Howard

[Arborbridge]

I probably should have added to my previous post that for BEV owners who want to protect their batteries it is advised not to continuously charge the car to 100% and not to let the car regularly go below 20%. A maximum of 80% is recommended. This means that a car with a real max range of 200 miles will normally only be charged up to a maximum of 160 miles by a careful owner and wouldn't regularly be driven to below 40 miles range.

That is a fairly compelling reason for a one car family not to go for a lower range car unless it is used mainly for shorter journeys.

Even as a driver of a leased car which will go back in three years from new, I generally follow the above guidance. If I owned the car for the longer term, I'd follow it assiduously.

regards

Howard

I agree with this and your previous comments. I don't think BEVs are quite "there" yet, though many of their owner groups would disagree. A case of rose tinted spectacles, I guess.
Most of my journeys are local or less than 100 miles, with just the occasional 200 miler - unless I suddenly decide to take a road trip, which I haven't done for years - but might. So, BEV would be alright for me and mostly I'd be charging at home. Incidentally, we also have a small second ICE car.

One threat to the widespread adoption of BEVs is the new regime coming in for electricity costs. We will have to see how that works out in the coming year. From what I've heard, people are anticipating 40-ish p/kW. Up at that level on any longish journey and the cost is too close to a decent diesel to be worth having (counting the higher capital cost, too) unless you are buying one solely for green reasons (by that I mean "local" green reasons, as I'm not sure how green EVs are on the rest of the world).
Whatever the exact numbers, higher electricity is bound to make people think twice, or back off completely.

Arb.

[BullDog]

I probably should have added to my previous post that for BEV owners who want to protect their batteries it is advised not to continuously charge the car to 100% and not to let the car regularly go below 20%. A maximum of 80% is recommended. This means that a car with a real max range of 200 miles will normally only be charged up to a maximum of 160 miles by a careful owner and wouldn't regularly be driven to below 40 miles range.

That is a fairly compelling reason for a one car family not to go for a lower range car unless it is used mainly for shorter journeys.

Even as a driver of a leased car which will go back in three years from new, I generally follow the above guidance. If I owned the car for the longer term, I'd follow it assiduously.

regards

Howard

I agree with this and your previous comments. I don't think BEVs are quite "there" yet, though many of their owner groups would disagree. A case of rose tinted spectacles, I guess.
Most of my journeys are local or less than 100 miles, with just the occasional 200 miler - unless I suddenly decide to take a road trip, which I haven't done for years - but might. So, BEV would be alright for me and mostly I'd be charging at home. Incidentally, we also have a small second ICE car.

One threat to the widespread adoption of BEVs is the new regime coming in for electricity costs. We will have to see how that works out in the coming year. From what I've heard, people are anticipating 40-ish p/kW. Up at that level on any longish journey and the cost is too close to a decent diesel to be worth having (counting the higher capital cost, too) unless you are buying one solely for green reasons (by that I mean "local" green reasons, as I'm not sure how green EVs are on the rest of the world).
Whatever the exact numbers, higher electricity is bound to make people think twice, or back off completely.

Arb.

Absolutely. At 40p a kW/hr it wouldn't be economic to plug our PHEV in. It does around 1.6 (in very cold weather) to 2.5 miles to a kW/hr. And about 35 miles per gallon when the battery is flat.

[AF62]

I probably should have added to my previous post that for BEV owners who want to protect their batteries it is advised not to continuously charge the car to 100% and not to let the car regularly go below 20%.

That is often repeated, but I do not believe is relevant with modern EV battery charging systems which are designed to protect the battery, which usually has a very long warranty.

There is no warning or guidance in the instruction manual for my EV to treat the battery in that way in normal day to day use.

The only guidance is not to leave it parked in hot weather for more than a month fully charged and don’t leave it parked for more than three months in very cold conditions with near zero charge.

One threat to the widespread adoption of BEVs is the new regime coming in for electricity costs. We will have to see how that works out in the coming year. From what I've heard, people are anticipating 40-ish p/kW.

For peak time electricity yes, but not the off-peak electricity people use to charge EVs.

Octopus, one of the leading EV tariff companies and one who has survived the recent cull of energy companies, has just changed its ‘Octopus Go’ offering, which is a fixed 12 month tariff. The daytime rate has increased from 15p to 30p, but the night rate has only increased from 5p to 7.5p. It would seem pretty unlikely for it to increase from 7.5p to 40p in the foreseeable future.

[Arborbridge]

For peak time electricity yes, but not the off-peak electricity people use to charge EVs.

Octopus, one of the leading EV tariff companies and one who has survived the recent cull of energy companies, has just changed its ‘Octopus Go’ offering, which is a fixed 12 month tariff. The daytime rate has increased from 15p to 30p, but the night rate has only increased from 5p to 7.5p. It would seem pretty unlikely for it to increase from 7.5p to 40p in the foreseeable future.

True enough, but it isn't always so simple. In my case (and no doubt others) my current provider cannot receive readings from my SMETS2 meter because, they say, the mobile signal is too weak - therefore there's no possibility of a cheap rate.

And at present, it would scarecely be much advantage because the daytime rate from Octopus is far higher than my current fixed rate. I gain on one and lose and almost equal amount of the other. Still, I'll have to wait and see what happens with rates later in the year when my fix comes off. My EV won't be here until late summer anyway - even that will demand some luck!

Each case will be different, but in general, there can be little doubt that the potential buyer will hesitate before taking on a BEV and its various trade-offs.

Arb

[Arborbridge]

I probably should have added to my previous post that for BEV owners who want to protect their batteries it is advised not to continuously charge the car to 100% and not to let the car regularly go below 20%.

That is often repeated, but I do not believe is relevant with modern EV battery charging systems which are designed to protect the battery, which usually has a very long warranty.

There is no warning or guidance in the instruction manual for my EV to treat the battery in that way in normal day to day use.

The only guidance is not to leave it parked in hot weather for more than a month fully charged and don’t leave it parked for more than three months in very cold conditions with near zero charge.

From what I've read ( though I haven't read the technical guidance in detail) it's OK to charge to 100% provided you intend to use the car very soon. Just don't leave it fully charged for days.

As for the warrranty, it varies I guess, but the VW one is no less than 70% capacity for the duration of the warranty. Slightly disappointed, since the salesman erroneously told me 95%, and later blamed his training!
If I keep the car 5-7 years as I usually do, that is not a good prospect. Imagine an ICE tank silting up by 30% and you'll get the idea of what potential buyers might think

[staffordian]

I probably should have added to my previous post that for BEV owners who want to protect their batteries it is advised not to continuously charge the car to 100% and not to let the car regularly go below 20%. A maximum of 80% is recommended. This means that a car with a real max range of 200 miles will normally only be charged up to a maximum of 160 miles by a careful owner and wouldn't regularly be driven to below 40 miles range.

That is a fairly compelling reason for a one car family not to go for a lower range car unless it is used mainly for shorter journeys.

Even as a driver of a leased car which will go back in three years from new, I generally follow the above guidance. If I owned the car for the longer term, I'd follow it assiduously.

regards

Howard

I watched a YouTube video recently on the Hyundai Ionic (the original one, not the new Ionic 5).

It related to a 5 year old model with 90,000 miles on the clock.

The presenter, a chap who sells EVs didn't know the history of the car but checked it's battery health.

It recorded 100% of capacity, i.e. no noticeable degradation.

However, when it showed a full 100% charge on the dash, the battery was only 94% full, and zero charge showing on the dash actually meant about 8% (IIRC) left, so the car itself took care of maintaining "safe" charge and discharge limits. The quoted battery size is 28kWh but is in fact around 30.5kWh to allow this margin.

To confirm the veracity of the diagnostic test he carried out a drive to confirm the range was still present.

He did say (possibly in a different video,) Hyundai and Kia batteries were very good in this respect, others not so. Eg a Nissan Leaf can lose around 3% per year of its capacity

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-3PEhifvBAM