BEV replacement battery cost.

[AF62]

but it isn't always so simple. In my case (and no doubt others) my current provider cannot receive readings from my SMETS2 meter because, they say, the mobile signal is too weak - therefore there's no possibility of a cheap rate.

Arqiva who cover the north of England and Scotland for SMETS 2 apparently have 99.55% coverage and Telefonica who cover everywhere else have 99.25% so not many people are in your situation - https://www.smartme.co.uk/technical.html

Each case will be different, but in general, there can be little doubt that the potential buyer will hesitate before taking on a BEV and its various trade-offs.

EV seems to be the direction of travel of the buyers though - https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trade ... 27-01-2021

I probably should have added to my previous post that for BEV owners who want to protect their batteries it is advised not to continuously charge the car to 100% and not to let the car regularly go below 20%.

That is often repeated, but I do not believe is relevant with modern EV battery charging systems which are designed to protect the battery, which usually has a very long warranty.

There is no warning or guidance in the instruction manual for my EV to treat the battery in that way in normal day to day use.

The only guidance is not to leave it parked in hot weather for more than a month fully charged and don’t leave it parked for more than three months in very cold conditions with near zero charge.

From what I've read ( though I haven't read the technical guidance in detail) it's OK to charge to 100% provided you intend to use the car very soon. Just don't leave it fully charged for days.

As for the warrranty, it varies I guess, but the VW one is no less than 70% capacity for the duration of the warranty. Slightly disappointed, since the salesman erroneously told me 95%, and later blamed his training!
If I keep the car 5-7 years as I usually do, that is not a good prospect. Imagine an ICE tank silting up by 30% and you'll get the idea of what potential buyers might think

Depends on the car - with mine the capacity is 80% before the warranty kicks in.

But although buyers might be interested in that, will the vast majority be sufficiently informed to make that decision. My experience of second hand car salespeople is, well, they are not that trustworthy - even you were misled by someone selling you a brand new car! The second hand sales people will just point to the original marketing material and say "the manufacturer claims it will do X miles on a full charge" and most buyers will go "ok".

Anyway, from experience most people buy based on the badge on the front of the car, the price, the colour, and the 'toys' inside it - everything else is an afterthought - so I don't expect it will be any different with EVs

[Arborbridge]

but it isn't always so simple. In my case (and no doubt others) my current provider cannot receive readings from my SMETS2 meter because, they say, the mobile signal is too weak - therefore there's no possibility of a cheap rate.

Arqiva who cover the north of England and Scotland for SMETS 2 apparently have 99.55% coverage and Telefonica who cover everywhere else have 99.25% so not many people are in your situation - https://www.smartme.co.uk/technical.html

Impressive, but if you looked at my signal coverage I ought to be Ok, though I have only had a couple of readings taken automatically in a year. I just wonder how many people actually have working meters. It may be I have an unusual problem, but I can even get the supplier to come and check as the are so inundated (so they say). Eventually, I hope to get this resolved, but there's nothing particularly to indicate I will before my BEV arrives.

Each case will be different, but in general, there can be little doubt that the potential buyer will hesitate before taking on a BEV and its various trade-offs.

EV seems to be the direction of travel of the buyers though - https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trade ... 27-01-2021

Agreed! We will just have to see if this rush calms down, as it may do. Cutting the government subsidy, extending delays in delivery, increasing electricity prices - all the will tend to dampen demand in the next six months. Hopefully, the chip shortage might solve itself in that time.
Indicentally, my order place in November does not have a build date, although originally it was"guessed" as being a May delivery. I'm hoping for sometime this year. Meanwhile, I enjoy my Merc diesel and its 60mph on a run.

[AF62]

Each case will be different, but in general, there can be little doubt that the potential buyer will hesitate before taking on a BEV and its various trade-offs.

EV seems to be the direction of travel of the buyers though - https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trade ... 27-01-2021

Agreed! We will just have to see if this rush calms down, as it may do. Cutting the government subsidy, extending delays in delivery, increasing electricity prices - all the will tend to dampen demand in the next six months. Hopefully, the chip shortage might solve itself in that time.
Indicentally, my order place in November does not have a build date, although originally it was "guessed" as being a May delivery. I'm hoping for sometime this year. Meanwhile, I enjoy my Merc diesel and its 60mph on a run.

Government subsidy was just extra profit for the EV manufacturers and when it was cut they just rejigged their offer slightly and carried on selling cars at the same (higher grant) price.

Extended delays - new ICE cars have had the same problems.

Increasing electricity price - seen the increases in the price of petrol and diesel recently! And the general trend for those isn't going to be down.

And I will again enjoy the 30mpg I get from my two seater convertible when the spring arrives (it does do 45mpg on a steady run, I just don't drive it that way ), but I also enjoy paying £2.50 to fill my EV up, that it automatedly warmed itself up this morning whilst I was asleep in bed, and with the immediate torque it has how fun it is to drive around town.

[Howard]

Meanwhile, I enjoy my Merc diesel and its 60mph on a run.

You can go faster on motorways .

regards

Howard

[BullDog]

A point perhaps worth making is that in this fairly immature market, you may well have to buy a new car charger to take advantage of a providers off peak EV tariffs. For example, we have a PodPoint charger about 18 months old. If we want to switch to a different energy provider with a special smart EV tariff then I would typically have to change from the PodPoint charger to a specific smart charger that works with the EV tariff provider's technology. Having a smart mains electricity meter just isn't enough. Basically, that means to take advantage of a different provider's smart EV tariff I have to pay maybe £750 up front to change my EV charger. Eventually, I guess the market will mature. But at the moment in an immature market, it's not as simple as just changing to a new provider for your off peak smart EV charging.

[Howard]

A point perhaps worth making is that in this fairly immature market, you may well have to buy a new car charger to take advantage of a providers off peak EV tariffs. For example, we have a PodPoint charger about 18 months old. If we want to switch to a different energy provider with a special smart EV tariff then I would typically have to change from the PodPoint charger to a specific smart charger that works with the EV tariff provider's technology. Having a smart mains electricity meter just isn't enough. Basically, that means to take advantage of a different provider's smart EV tariff I have to pay maybe £750 up front to change my EV charger. Eventually, I guess the market will mature. But at the moment in an immature market, it's not as simple as just changing to a new provider for your off peak smart EV charging.

Are you sure of this? Our KIA is easily set to charge at any given off peak period. We don't use the charger's ability to set the charging period.

regards

Howard

[Arborbridge]

Meanwhile, I enjoy my Merc diesel and its 60mph on a run.

You can go faster on motorways .

regards

Howard

Sorry, mpg!

[Arborbridge]

Increasing electricity price - seen the increases in the price of petrol and diesel recently! And the general trend for those isn't going to be down.

The jury is out. Prices have been increasing? Pretty steady at 149.9 for diesel for several weeks and it was 152 earlier on. Of course, it's true that fuel prices will fluctuate, but at the moment electricity is going though such a bad stage that it will retrain the EV enthusiasm for some people who are considering switching - that's all I'm saying. Some people are being quoted increases of 50% in electricity, and nothing like fuel changes.

[scotview]

Interesting discussion, thanks.
Another factor which I think is going to affect BEV acceptance is the very significant drop off in battery range in cold weather. Our winter hasn't been particularly bad where we are but our 48kWh battery rated for 210 miles is showing 130 miles at 80% charge, computed on our current driving pattern,

[AF62]

Increasing electricity price - seen the increases in the price of petrol and diesel recently! And the general trend for those isn't going to be down.

The jury is out. Prices have been increasing? Pretty steady at 149.9 for diesel for several weeks and it was 152 earlier on. Of course, it's true that fuel prices will fluctuate, but at the moment electricity is going though such a bad stage that it will retrain the EV enthusiasm for some people who are considering switching - that's all I'm saying. Some people are being quoted increases of 50% in electricity, and nothing like fuel changes.

Petrol are around £1.45 a litre, for the sort of short journeys that many (most) people commonly make you are looking at 16p a mile.
Off-Peak electricity has already increased from 5p to 7.5p per kWh and at that higher price you are looking at 2p per mile.

That's an awfully big increase needed in the cost of electricity to get it close to petrol. Sure the cost of a new EV is higher than the cost of a new ICE, but the trend has been seriously downwards and it isn't beyond imagination to see parity pricing in the not too distant future.

[BullDog]

A point perhaps worth making is that in this fairly immature market, you may well have to buy a new car charger to take advantage of a providers off peak EV tariffs. For example, we have a PodPoint charger about 18 months old. If we want to switch to a different energy provider with a special smart EV tariff then I would typically have to change from the PodPoint charger to a specific smart charger that works with the EV tariff provider's technology. Having a smart mains electricity meter just isn't enough. Basically, that means to take advantage of a different provider's smart EV tariff I have to pay maybe £750 up front to change my EV charger. Eventually, I guess the market will mature. But at the moment in an immature market, it's not as simple as just changing to a new provider for your off peak smart EV charging.

Are you sure of this? Our KIA is easily set to charge at any given off peak period. We don't use the charger's ability to set the charging period.

regards

Howard

There's two ways for you to set the charging period, on the car or on the charger.

I apologise, my previous post wasn't clear.

I am referencing the energy suppliers smart EV charging tariffs with dynamic pricing. That's where the energy supplier decides when your vehicle is recharged, not you. I am not an expert here, but when I recently spoke to a couple of suppliers about maybe using their smart EV tariff, it became clear you can only do so on the proviso your charger is also smart and in addition is of the same technology/brand of "smartness" that the energy suppler supports. I happily charge a PHEV using a PodPoint charging point. But I cannot presently find a smart EV tariff with dynamic pricing that is compatible with my PodPoint. As I said, it's a very immature market. Things will change, I guess.

[BullDog]

Increasing electricity price - seen the increases in the price of petrol and diesel recently! And the general trend for those isn't going to be down.

The jury is out. Prices have been increasing? Pretty steady at 149.9 for diesel for several weeks and it was 152 earlier on. Of course, it's true that fuel prices will fluctuate, but at the moment electricity is going though such a bad stage that it will retrain the EV enthusiasm for some people who are considering switching - that's all I'm saying. Some people are being quoted increases of 50% in electricity, and nothing like fuel changes.

Petrol are around £1.45 a litre, for the sort of short journeys that many (most) people commonly make you are looking at 16p a mile.
Off-Peak electricity has already increased from 5p to 7.5p per kWh and at that higher price you are looking at 2p per mile.

That's an awfully big increase needed in the cost of electricity to get it close to petrol. Sure the cost of a new EV is higher than the cost of a new ICE, but the trend has been seriously downwards and it isn't beyond imagination to see parity pricing in the not too distant future.

My break even of petrol v electric for the PHEV I run is around 18p per kw/hr. Public charging points already exceed that. If my home tariff exceeds that, I will no longer bother charging the PHEV.

[AF62]

our 48kWh battery rated for 210 miles

Manufacturer's figures?

210 miles from a 48kWh is 4.375 miles/kWh - that is unusually high, with most EVs in the 'real world' only achieving that around town in the summer.

Manufacturer's range figures for EVs are the same as manufacturer's MPG figures - sure you can achieve them if your car is heat 'soaked' to 25c and then driven like a nun on her way to church with a basket of eggs on the passenger seat - but in reality, not attainable by anyone else.

[AF62]

However, I am not talking about that. I am referencing the energy suppliers smart EV charging tariffs with dynamic pricing. That's where the energy supplier decides when your vehicle is recharged, not you. I am not an expert here, but when I recently spoke to a couple of suppliers about maybe using their smart EV tariff, it became clear you can only do so on the proviso your charger is also smart and in addition is of the same technology/brand of "smartness" that the energy suppler supports. I happily charge a PHEV using a PodPoint charging point. But I cannot presently find a smart EV tariff with dynamic pricing that is compatible with my PodPoint. As I said, it's a very immature market. Things will change, I guess.

The straightforward non-dynamic pricing tariffs exist if you search, for example Octopus Go which gives you a lower rate cost between 00:30 and 04:30 and no 'smart' EV charger required if you set the car's charging timer.

[BullDog]

However, I am not talking about that. I am referencing the energy suppliers smart EV charging tariffs with dynamic pricing. That's where the energy supplier decides when your vehicle is recharged, not you. I am not an expert here, but when I recently spoke to a couple of suppliers about maybe using their smart EV tariff, it became clear you can only do so on the proviso your charger is also smart and in addition is of the same technology/brand of "smartness" that the energy suppler supports. I happily charge a PHEV using a PodPoint charging point. But I cannot presently find a smart EV tariff with dynamic pricing that is compatible with my PodPoint. As I said, it's a very immature market. Things will change, I guess.

The straightforward non-dynamic pricing tariffs exist if you search, for example Octopus Go which gives you a lower rate cost between 00:30 and 04:30 and no 'smart' EV charger required if you set the car's charging timer.

Indeed they do. Thanks.

[Arborbridge]

Interesting discussion, thanks.
Another factor which I think is going to affect BEV acceptance is the very significant drop off in battery range in cold weather. Our winter hasn't been particularly bad where we are but our 48kWh battery rated for 210 miles is showing 130 miles at 80% charge, computed on our current driving pattern,

Yes, the user group I am on are all grumbling about it. The more enthusiastic EVers tell us "it's just the same with an ICE" but that a disingenuous asnwer: the truth but not the whole truth!

Arb.

[BullDog]

Interesting discussion, thanks.
Another factor which I think is going to affect BEV acceptance is the very significant drop off in battery range in cold weather. Our winter hasn't been particularly bad where we are but our 48kWh battery rated for 210 miles is showing 130 miles at 80% charge, computed on our current driving pattern,

Yes, the user group I am on are all grumbling about it. The more enthusiastic EVers tell us "it's just the same with an ICE" but that a disingenuous asnwer: the truth but not the whole truth!

Arb.

There's easily a 40% difference or more in miles per kW on my PHEV summer to winter. It is nonsense to claim that about the petrol or diesel alternative.

[Arborbridge]

Petrol are around £1.45 a litre, for the sort of short journeys that many (most) people commonly make you are looking at 16p a mile.
Off-Peak electricity has already increased from 5p to 7.5p per kWh and at that higher price you are looking at 2p per mile.

That's an awfully big increase needed in the cost of electricity to get it close to petrol. Sure the cost of a new EV is higher than the cost of a new ICE, but the trend has been seriously downwards and it isn't beyond imagination to see parity pricing in the not too distant future.

It's very individual, isn't it. That's true for you, but not for others. I'd agree that for local journeys, under 50 miles the numbers are favourable still. However, for me on a run, the cost of my diesel is around 13p a mile. Given an EV will do something like 3 miles/kW (depending on so many variables! including temperature) that gives a breakeven on fuel of around 39p kW.
When the new prices filter through, we will see then what the situation is, but many chargers on the road re charging more than that already.
Home charging, of course, restores the balance, but not everyone can - or will in future - achieve 5p kW. Indeed even with that rate, it is barely worth my while changing since my mileage is low and the daytime Octopus rate is quite high - in my case Octopus would breakeven with my present tariff, near as dammit.

BTW, in case you think I am being too "anti", bear in mind I have a BEV on order, so I am convinced it's worth having a go, so to speak. Especially as most of my journeys are sub 100 miles.
My point in this discussion, was just to say that I can see higher electricity charges dampening people's enthusiasm. We will get some half baked stories from the petrolheads to discourage the waverers!

The cynic in me also has a feeling that as soon as EVs become popular, companies and the government will start arbitraging our advantage so make an extra penny themselves. THere will certainly be road tax eventually.

Arb.

[Arborbridge]

Interesting discussion, thanks.
Another factor which I think is going to affect BEV acceptance is the very significant drop off in battery range in cold weather. Our winter hasn't been particularly bad where we are but our 48kWh battery rated for 210 miles is showing 130 miles at 80% charge, computed on our current driving pattern,

Yes, the user group I am on are all grumbling about it. The more enthusiastic EVers tell us "it's just the same with an ICE" but that a disingenuous asnwer: the truth but not the whole truth!

Arb.

There's easily a 40% difference or more in miles per kW on my PHEV summer to winter. It is nonsense to claim that about the petrol or diesel alternative.

I know but it is a phrase the rose tinted spectacle wearer trots out whenever you might point out a disadvantage with an EV: "It's no different with an ICE!!"

[quelquod]

However, I am not talking about that. I am referencing the energy suppliers smart EV charging tariffs with dynamic pricing. That's where the energy supplier decides when your vehicle is recharged, not you. I am not an expert here, but when I recently spoke to a couple of suppliers about maybe using their smart EV tariff, it became clear you can only do so on the proviso your charger is also smart and in addition is of the same technology/brand of "smartness" that the energy suppler supports. I happily charge a PHEV using a PodPoint charging point. But I cannot presently find a smart EV tariff with dynamic pricing that is compatible with my PodPoint. As I said, it's a very immature market. Things will change, I guess.

The straightforward non-dynamic pricing tariffs exist if you search, for example Octopus Go which gives you a lower rate cost between 00:30 and 04:30 and no 'smart' EV charger required if you set the car's charging timer.

However taking Octopus Go (as you refer to as an example) their ‘on-peak’ GO tariff for electricity is over 50% higher than their standard tariff in my area so depending on your usage it may be of no advantage.