Speed limit to be lowered to 20mph in Wales

[Nimrod103]

I'd argue that 10 minutes of life wasted commuting or delivering stuff is the same as being deprived of 10 minutes of life by injury, or poorer air quality because engines run less efficiently at lower speeds

Can you do that please then?
Because it seems to me that you are equating the entirety of someone's life lost with the accumulated inconvenience of a bunch of others - exactly how does the maths stack up?
And are you considering the collective experience of everyone else exposed to the traffic?
I'm interested.. and I accept it's complicated

Just like the economic, social and psychological impact of Covid lockdowns versus the sickness and deaths of people who only had a few years of life left and a few people who had a genetic susceptibility. I don't think the calculation was ever done.

[JohnB]

Organisations compare small inconveniences with horrendous outcomes all the time. Its the back-bone of health and safety legislation, how the NHS allocates resources, how infrastructure is built. The problem is there is little consistency on the value of time or money across organisations. UK railways are vastly safer than UK roads, yet the delays, annoyances and high cost of that safety drives people to use the roads.

[Bubblesofearth]

Organisations compare small inconveniences with horrendous outcomes all the time. Its the back-bone of health and safety legislation, how the NHS allocates resources, how infrastructure is built. The problem is there is little consistency on the value of time or money across organisations. UK railways are vastly safer than UK roads, yet the delays, annoyances and high cost of that safety drives people to use the roads.

IMO it's more about convenience. I always take the train if it's more convenient getting door-door. Problem is it usually isn't.

BoE

[88V8]

I'd argue that 10 minutes of life wasted commuting or delivering stuff is the same as being deprived of 10 minutes of life by injury, or poorer air quality because engines run less efficiently at lower speeds

Can you do that please then?
Because it seems to me that you are equating the entirety of someone's life lost with the accumulated inconvenience of a bunch of others - exactly how does the maths stack up?
And are you considering the collective experience of everyone else exposed to the traffic?
I'm interested.. and I accept it's complicated

Beware. One day, this sort of argument will be applied to driverless cars, assuming they ever become viable, arguing that because they are safer than human drivers, humans should be banned from driving cars.
And then, they'll come after cyclists.

Regards 20mph zones, OK in small doses. But I'm with Nimrod if one is trying to cover any distance.
Will it affect the tourist trade? I don't go to Brighton. Why? Because last time I went in 2005, there were sooo many pedestrian traffic lights it was a nightmare trying to drive to the sea front. I've never been back.
Some things bother some people, other things bother other people. I certainly don't see how it will help the tourist industry.

V8

[CliffEdge]

I doubt the locals will obey the speed limits.

[dionaeamuscipula]

I doubt the locals will obey the speed limits.

I live in South Wales.

Actually I was surprised at how good the obedience was on day 1.

Implementation was pretty patchy on day 1. The area I live in has had extensive 20 mph zones for some time, but with many roads switching between 20 and 30. Many of the gateway signs are still in place, and we know that not all roads are now 20, so it was quite difficult to be sure if the transition was now in place or not. But most people just stuck to 20 nonetheless.

DM

[servodude]

Can you do that please then?
Because it seems to me that you are equating the entirety of someone's life lost with the accumulated inconvenience of a bunch of others - exactly how does the maths stack up?
And are you considering the collective experience of everyone else exposed to the traffic?
I'm interested.. and I accept it's complicated

Beware. One day, this sort of argument will be applied to driverless cars, assuming they ever become viable, arguing that because they are safer than human drivers, humans should be banned from driving cars.
And then, they'll come after cyclists.

Regards 20mph zones, OK in small doses. But I'm with Nimrod if one is trying to cover any distance.
Will it affect the tourist trade? I don't go to Brighton. Why? Because last time I went in 2005, there were sooo many pedestrian traffic lights it was a nightmare trying to drive to the sea front. I've never been back.
Some things bother some people, other things bother other people. I certainly don't see how it will help the tourist industry.

V8

"Right then! that's it Mavis! I've cancelled the holiday to Pwllheli! Have you seen what they've done with the speed limit!?"



Just don't really see it being much of a real thing outwith the "Chairborne Squadron" round these parts.

Meanwhile it's safer for kids to get outside and do things that they should

[Nimrod103]

Meanwhile it's safer for kids to get outside and do things that they should

What are the kids doing outside? Frequently things they shouldn't. This evening as I pulled away from the side of the road, I nearly hit a kid doing 30 mph on an electric scooter. No lights, no helmet, dressed in black, doing 30mph downhill in the middle of the highway. If the police can't be bothered to police this type of behaviour, maybe we need 5 mph limits.

[bungeejumper]

What are the kids doing outside? Frequently things they shouldn't. This evening as I pulled away from the side of the road, I nearly hit a kid doing 30 mph on an electric scooter. No lights, no helmet, dressed in black, doing 30mph downhill in the middle of the highway.

Bit of a Meldrew moment there, surely? I might have been with you if you hadn't said the kids were doing bad stuff "frequently".

99% are not doing those things, although a fair few are a bit dozy about health and safety. (Teenagers have bigger things on their minds. )

I've been known to curse the skateboard riders on the pavements, but go back thirty or forty years and you'd have found kids doing other stuff. Such as lighting fireworks, turning up their ghetto blasters to 11, kicking heavy leather footballs around among the parked cars, and yes, storming around the suburbs on their de-baffled motorbikes. Every generation produces its own nuisances, so let's not make out that this one is so much worse than its predecessors.

BJ

[servodude]

What are the kids doing outside? Frequently things they shouldn't. This evening as I pulled away from the side of the road, I nearly hit a kid doing 30 mph on an electric scooter. No lights, no helmet, dressed in black, doing 30mph downhill in the middle of the highway.

Bit of a Meldrew moment there, surely? I might have been with you if you hadn't said the kids were doing bad stuff "frequently".

99% are not doing those things, although a fair few are a bit dozy about health and safety. (Teenagers have bigger things on their minds. )

I've been known to curse the skateboard riders on the pavements, but go back thirty or forty years and you'd have found kids doing other stuff. Such as lighting fireworks, turning up their ghetto blasters to 11, kicking heavy leather footballs around among the parked cars, and yes, storming around the suburbs on their de-baffled motorbikes. Every generation produces its own nuisances, so let's not make out that this one is so much worse than its predecessors.

BJ

... playing with their whip'n'peerie, hopscotch, kicking cans, tossing coins, marbles, British Bulldog, cricket?
There's millions of things kids should be doing outside, or at least that's what I normally hear from the average gammon... except if it impinges on their license to drive as fast as they think they should while putting out as much pollution as they can.

[DrFfybes]

There's millions of things kids should be doing outside, or at least that's what I normally hear from the average gammon... except if it impinges on their license to drive as fast as they think they should while putting out as much pollution as they can.

Presumably none of the above applies to BEV drivers then?

[servodude]

There's millions of things kids should be doing outside, or at least that's what I normally hear from the average gammon... except if it impinges on their license to drive as fast as they think they should while putting out as much pollution as they can.

Presumably none of the above applies to BEV drivers then?

All to easy to go faster than you should on a BEV, especially when there's kids involved
Even my E-bike would do serious damage to a wean at full pace (which is why I opted for the risky swerve, breaking my elbow a few months back.... and because I reckon the paper work would have been worse)

[Mike4]

Meanwhile it's safer for kids to get outside and do things that they should

What are the kids doing outside? Frequently things they shouldn't. This evening as I pulled away from the side of the road, I nearly hit a kid doing 30 mph on an electric scooter. No lights, no helmet, dressed in black, doing 30mph downhill in the middle of the highway. If the police can't be bothered to police this type of behaviour, maybe we need 5 mph limits.

Never mind electric scooters, wait until these things get common. Think about one trying to do an emergency stop!

Skip to about 3 mins to see the chap whizzing about on it. Bear in mind this is a slow and low power version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7-2bwk ... lectrek.co

[servodude]

What are the kids doing outside? Frequently things they shouldn't. This evening as I pulled away from the side of the road, I nearly hit a kid doing 30 mph on an electric scooter. No lights, no helmet, dressed in black, doing 30mph downhill in the middle of the highway. If the police can't be bothered to police this type of behaviour, maybe we need 5 mph limits.

Never mind electric scooters, wait until these things get common. Think about one trying to do an emergency stop!

Skip to about 3 mins to see the chap whizzing about on it. Bear in mind this is a slow and low power version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7-2bwk ... lectrek.co

I really have to try one one day - having spent ages modelling the inverted pendulum as a control exercise

[Tedx]

Update from my niece who lives somewhere in Wales:

Literally no one's doing it!

None of the signage has been changed in <insert name of a fairly major Welsh conurbation> yet!

It's been ridiculous. People are being under taken by cyclists.....and there's still some [expletive deleted] in a BMW doing 40mph in the 20s...

[DrFfybes]

Literally no one's doing it!

None of the signage has been changed in <insert name of a fairly major Welsh conurbation> yet!

It's been ridiculous. People are being under taken by cyclists.....and there's still some [expletive deleted] in a BMW doing 40mph in the 20s...

Really?

I'm shocked.

Or actually, not shocked at all. There will be virtually zero enforcement in the first period, there will be huge numbers of appeals upheld due to conflicting signage "Oh, sorry, had I crossed into Wales? The Welcome to Wales sign must have been overgrown so I hadn't realised and the speed limit sign said 30"

The Police I know through the IAM say it will be a nightmare and really don't want it, preferring to target dangerious drivers rather than people doing 23mph holding up cyclists. There's also an unsubstantiated rumour that many cameras were not routinely calibrated to operate below 30 mph, and there is an ongoing progam to recalibrate the existing cameras.

Of course a good indicator af the actual impact of this on journey times will be vehicles that spend most of their time in the new zones. I woner if they'll need to revamp all the bus timetables and recruit more drivers to cover extended hours?

Paul

[Nimrod103]

What are the kids doing outside? Frequently things they shouldn't. This evening as I pulled away from the side of the road, I nearly hit a kid doing 30 mph on an electric scooter. No lights, no helmet, dressed in black, doing 30mph downhill in the middle of the highway.

Bit of a Meldrew moment there, surely? I might have been with you if you hadn't said the kids were doing bad stuff "frequently".

99% are not doing those things, although a fair few are a bit dozy about health and safety. (Teenagers have bigger things on their minds. )

I've been known to curse the skateboard riders on the pavements, but go back thirty or forty years and you'd have found kids doing other stuff. Such as lighting fireworks, turning up their ghetto blasters to 11, kicking heavy leather footballs around among the parked cars, and yes, storming around the suburbs on their de-baffled motorbikes. Every generation produces its own nuisances, so let's not make out that this one is so much worse than its predecessors.

BJ

I don't think I made the comment that the current youth generation was worse than any other, though I had hoped that society would improve over the years, becoming more tolerant, even helpful, and law abiding, but it would seem that is a vain hope.

Of course one could use the evidence of the increase in stabbings and serious drug problems among the young to say that standards have got much worse, but that was not my point.

Specifically my point was about road safety, which this 20mph limit is totally focused on. Yet the police are wilfully turning a blind eye to other significant areas of risky road activity, like electric scooters.

[Nimrod103]

Literally no one's doing it!

None of the signage has been changed in <insert name of a fairly major Welsh conurbation> yet!

It's been ridiculous. People are being under taken by cyclists.....and there's still some [expletive deleted] in a BMW doing 40mph in the 20s...

Really?

I'm shocked.

Or actually, not shocked at all. There will be virtually zero enforcement in the first period, there will be huge numbers of appeals upheld due to conflicting signage "Oh, sorry, had I crossed into Wales? The Welcome to Wales sign must have been overgrown so I hadn't realised and the speed limit sign said 30"

The Police I know through the IAM say it will be a nightmare and really don't want it, preferring to target dangerious drivers rather than people doing 23mph holding up cyclists. There's also an unsubstantiated rumour that many cameras were not routinely calibrated to operate below 30 mph, and there is an ongoing progam to recalibrate the existing cameras.

Of course a good indicator af the actual impact of this on journey times will be vehicles that spend most of their time in the new zones. I woner if they'll need to revamp all the bus timetables and recruit more drivers to cover extended hours?

Paul

All true I am sure, though I am also reminded of an English colleague of mine, many years ago, who worked at Aberyswyth University. He frequently drove back to England, and was clocked going through somewhere like Machynlleth a bit too fast. Of the half dozen speeding cases which came up in court (which they did in those days), he was the only Englishman, and he was the only one to be fined. He left Aber soon after that, and hated the Welsh ever since.

[JohnB]

Of course a good indicator af the actual impact of this on journey times will be vehicles that spend most of their time in the new zones. I woner if they'll need to revamp all the bus timetables and recruit more drivers to cover extended hours?

Yes, and the changes are allowing those routes that are now uneconomic to be cut.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/h ... r-AA1fVLsl

[Lootman]

Literally no one's doing it!

None of the signage has been changed in <insert name of a fairly major Welsh conurbation> yet!

It's been ridiculous. People are being under taken by cyclists.....and there's still some [expletive deleted] in a BMW doing 40mph in the 20s...

The Police I know through the IAM say it will be a nightmare and really don't want it, preferring to target dangerous drivers rather than people doing 23mph holding up cyclists.

So if the limit is 20 the cops would only cite you if you were doing more than 23? So there is a 15% leeway? 25 might make more sense as I generally reckon 35 is OK in a 30 zone. Many American towns have a 25 limit but everyone drives at 35 and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

I literally do not think I could ever keep my speed down to 20, except in traffic. Or if I were lost, which I probably would be in Wales.