Two driving licenses.

[Lootman]

A friend of mine is a Canadian living in California. He has driving licenses from both places, which is not illegal as far as he knows. He was telling me that he got a driving ban in California a couple of years ago. So he went back to Canada for 6 months and drove there on his Canadian license. No problem, he claimed.

This interested me because I have two driving licenses from two different licensing authorities. Back in the 1990s I did a number of job contracts overseas and so got a non-UK license as well. I have kept both licenses up to date.

Bringing this back home, suppose someone owned a second home in (say) France, and acquired a French driving license as well. If they got a ban in France could they still legally drive in the UK on their UK license? And vice versa?

[mc2fool]

Bringing this back home, suppose someone owned a second home in (say) France, and acquired a French driving license as well. If they got a ban in France could they still legally drive in the UK on their UK license? And vice versa?

A Brexit benefit?

Vălean added on Wednesday that they would like to introduce an EU-wide driving ban for those endangering others on the roads, for example by exceeding speed limits by more than 50 km/h.

As things stand, driving bans are enforced nationally.

"If somebody drives so dangerously that an EU member state deems it appropriate to remove their driving licence, that person should not be allowed to drive in another EU country," the Transport Commissioner said.

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/03/01/brussels-wants-to-roll-out-eu-wide-driving-ban-as-it-seeks-to-improve-european-road-safety

[Tedx]

I remember reading that motoring convictions acquired on the Isle of Man didnt apply in the rest of the UK.

Handy during TT week where you basically leave your brain at the docks in Liverpool.

[Lootman]

I wonder if there is something in the small print of your license documents that requires you to volunteer information about any foreign driving transgressions?

On the other hand driving laws vary by country and so an offence in one land may not be an offence in another. An example might be different blood alcohol limits for a drunk driving citation. If as stated the EU wants trans-national bans then traffic laws would need to be harmonised, no?

[chas49]

I wonder if there is something in the small print of your license documents that requires you to volunteer information about any foreign driving transgressions?

On the other hand driving laws vary by country and so an offence in one land may not be an offence in another. An example might be different blood alcohol limits for a drunk driving citation. If as stated the EU wants trans-national bans then traffic laws would need to be harmonised, no?

Slightly off-topic from the OP, but the limits in Scotland are less than those in England and Wales:

The limits in Scotland are different to the rest of the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/drink-drive-limit

But a ban is UK wide....

[Hallucigenia]

I'd imagine your insurance is where it catches up with you, although I've added visitors to my car insurance who had foreign licences, I've had experience the other way where trying to get a "primary" car insurance overseas with a "foreign" (UK) licence was almost impossible unless you went to certain insurers who specialised in expats (at a price), and the rule said you couldn't drive for more than 6 or 12 months on a foreign licence in any case.

Also I don't remember the declaration about no convictions etc on the insurance form being restricted to the UK...

[9873210]

I wonder if there is something in the small print of your license documents that requires you to volunteer information about any foreign driving transgressions?

On the other hand driving laws vary by country and so an offence in one land may not be an offence in another. An example might be different blood alcohol limits for a drunk driving citation. If as stated the EU wants trans-national bans then traffic laws would need to be harmonised, no?

Yes, lots of small print. But it might not be in the driving laws.

Canada, for example, can and does deny entry for non-Canadians with a DWI in the US. In theory they apply the same rule for all countries, but details of enforcement vary. There are immigration lawyers who specialize in getting waivers for US residents with decade olds DWI convictions.

For most countries a visa application has open ended questions such as "have you ever been arrested or convicted of a crime?" Most visa waiver explicitly exclude people who have been either arrested or convicted. At least a few countries require you to report even minor offenses that would not deny entry. Details and enforcement may vary but often you would not have to drive to break the law, they can imprison you for perjury or illegal entry, then kick you out.

The EU and Schengen Area make this a bit more complicated, but movement is still restricted for some classes of people. There are people whose status requires them the apply for permission to cross internal borders (which will usually be summarily denied), despite there being few border posts to apply at.

Immigration law is generally a minefield. There are often sweeping restrictions with little enforcement. Some pairs of countries have arrangements for information and enforcement sharing but in many cases the enforcement is lax until a local police officer or prosecutor takes a disliking to you. They can throw the book at you; you may find that it is a very heavy tome. The rule of law is a fragile thing and often theoretical for despised foreigners.

[modellingman]

Bringing this back home, suppose someone owned a second home in (say) France, and acquired a French driving license as well. If they got a ban in France could they still legally drive in the UK on their UK license? And vice versa?

When I acquired a Spanish driving licence several years ago I was required to hold Spanish residency rather than just have a Spanish address. In addition, without taking a Spanish driving test, I was required to surrender my UK licence to DGT, the Spanish authority which then made checks with DVLA before issuing my new Spanish licence. I can legally drive in the UK using my Spanish licence but were I to be banned in Spain I would not hold a legal licence and, I strongly suspect, could not legally drive in the UK. However, were I to get banned in the UK and did not hand over my licence here, I'm not sure if DGT would get to know about this to enforce a ban in Spain. It is a situation I will try and avoid.

modellingman

[mc2fool]

When I acquired a Spanish driving licence several years ago I was required to hold Spanish residency rather than just have a Spanish address. In addition, without taking a Spanish driving test, I was required to surrender my UK licence to DGT, the Spanish authority which then made checks with DVLA before issuing my new Spanish licence. I can legally drive in the UK using my Spanish licence but were I to be banned in Spain I would not hold a legal licence and, I strongly suspect, could not legally drive in the UK. However, were I to get banned in the UK and did not hand over my licence here, I'm not sure if DGT would get to know about this to enforce a ban in Spain. It is a situation I will try and avoid.

So what happens if you ask DVLA for a replacement UK licence?

[modellingman]

When I acquired a Spanish driving licence several years ago I was required to hold Spanish residency rather than just have a Spanish address. In addition, without taking a Spanish driving test, I was required to surrender my UK licence to DGT, the Spanish authority which then made checks with DVLA before issuing my new Spanish licence. I can legally drive in the UK using my Spanish licence but were I to be banned in Spain I would not hold a legal licence and, I strongly suspect, could not legally drive in the UK. However, were I to get banned in the UK and did not hand over my licence here, I'm not sure if DGT would get to know about this to enforce a ban in Spain. It is a situation I will try and avoid.

So what happens if you ask DVLA for a replacement UK licence?

Pass

[didds]

back in 1989 I moved to (West) Germany where I worked for 2.5 years.
I registered with the local council as a foreign resident (Ausenhalbserlaubnis" or similar (that's a misspelling I know).

After about a year I had to swap my UK driving licence for a German one.

I left Germany and went travelling and ended up a few months later in Australia, where I was driving on my German licence.

I lost my German licence, and had no idea of how i cold get it replaced.

So I phoned my dad, who applied on my behalf to the DVLA (or maybe i did and it got posted to my parents house - it WAS a long time ago now!).

Anyway, the UK just issued me another licence, dad posted it to me in Aus and I continued.

There appeared to be no connection from the DVLA that I had surrendered my UK license to the German authorities at any time, which made ,me wonder

1) what happened to my UK license when surrendered in Germany?
2) having surrendered it, could I have just immediately asked the DVLA for a replacement having "lost" my original UK one? And so ended up with two licenses...

Im sure its all changed a lot in 30+ years!

didds

[DrFfybes]

1) what happened to my UK license when surrendered in Germany?
2) having surrendered it, could I have just immediately asked the DVLA for a replacement having "lost" my original UK one? And so ended up with two licenses...

Im sure its all changed a lot in 30+ years!

didds

Yes - these days you'd get a replacement from DVLA before you set off

BTW - the rule for driving up to 12 months on a foreign licence is very common, and very rarely enforced as the police rarely have access to travel information.

Paul

[Lootman]

back in 1989 I moved to (West) Germany where I worked for 2.5 years. I registered with the local council as a foreign resident (Ausenhalbserlaubnis" or similar (that's a misspelling I know).

After about a year I had to swap my UK driving licence for a German one.

But what if you had presented yourself to the German licensing authority as a new driver and taken a driving test? Then presumably you would not have had to surrender your UK license?

That is basically what I did when got my foreign license.

[Hallucigenia]

As always, so much of what governments can do depends on the state of their databases. My understanding is that it was maybe 10-15 years ago that DVLA became able to talk to other "DVLAs" in the EU, which meant that Europeans caught speeding here, had to pay fines (but not points) when previously they could sail down the M20 at 100mph without worrying about getting caught. Whereas in France the gendarmes would march foreigners to a cashpoint to pay there and then.

And the Driving Licence Directive 2006/126/EC which was mostly implemented via the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 but which we finally implemented in full in 2015 says that you can only hold one licence from an EU/EEA country, when previously it was only an offence to apply for a UK licence when you already had an EU one, they are well aware of the potential for splitting points across different licences :
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... y_2015.pdf

Of course, this is something that changes with Brexit as indefinite use of an EU licence is no longer allowed (AIUI).

And as I said above, you'll get caught on the insurance - if you say you've not been banned then you've lied on your insurance application which means you're driving without insurance.

[9873210]

BTW - the rule for driving up to 12 months on a foreign licence is very common, and very rarely enforced as the police rarely have access to travel information.

Paul

Not so common.

The number of countries where you are allowed to be (not drive, simply be) for a year without residency is a lot smaller than you think. Most places have different and tighter deadlines for getting a local license for residence than for visitors. And yes enforcement is hit or miss, tending in the direction of waiting for an accident and then piling on un-licensed operation, driving without insurance, remaining without leave, etc.

https://www.germany.info/blob/910344/06 ... f-data.pdf

[Lootman]

you'll get caught on the insurance - if you say you've not been banned then you've lied on your insurance application which means you're driving without insurance.

Perhaps but there are reasons to believe that may not matter.

The first and most important is that, in the event of you making a claim, your insurer would have to make inquiries to every other driver licensing authority on the planet and ask if they have a record of a "John Smith from London" ever having had a driving license there, and being banned. Perhaps as you suggest that is or was a simpler matter within the EU. But what about everywhere else? I just cannot see that happening as a normal part of claims processing, and I worked for an insurer for 4 years.

Secondly the criteria for being banned can be very different in other countries. So for example the blood alcohol limit is 0.08% in the UK, but only 0.05% in France and 0.02% in Sweden. It is even 0.0% in a few countries. So you can be banned overseas for something that is legally immaterial here.

Finally for third party claims I believe your insurance policy has to pay out regardless. It would then have to seek redress from the "lying" driver, which will not be possible in many cases.

So what you say could theoretically be a problem, but it is unlikely to be in practice.

The number of countries where you are allowed to be (not drive, simply be) for a year without residency is a lot smaller than you think. Most places have different and tighter deadlines for getting a local license for residence than for visitors.

Yes, if I recall correctly in California you have to apply for a license within just 14 days of residency.

[9873210]

The first and most important is that, in the event of you making a claim, your insurer would have to make inquiries to every other driver licensing authority on the planet and ask if they have a record of a "John Smith from London" ever having had a driving license there, and being banned. Perhaps as you suggest that is or was a simpler matter within the EU. But what about everywhere else? I just cannot see that happening as a normal part of claims processing, and I worked for an insurer for 4 years.

In practice they listen to your accent, and perhaps look at a few available records, make a good guess and do an enquiry or two. This will usually be effective if you are not a spy.

Secondly the criteria for being banned can be very different in other countries. So for example the blood alcohol limit is 0.08% in the UK, but only 0.05% in France and 0.02% in Sweden. It is even 0.0% in a few countries. So you can be banned overseas for something that is legally immaterial here.

It doesn't work the way you think it does. In most cases countries simply ask if you were convicted. "I was driving on the left which is not only legal but mandatory" is not going to get you any slack. If you can convince the court that your license was revoked for political demonstrations in North Korea they may choose to ignore it entirely. But in almost all cases you will have to go to court and argue the case, prima facia respect for the laws of other countries is the general rule.

Finally for third party claims I believe your insurance policy has to pay out regardless. It would then have to seek redress from the "lying" driver, which will not be possible in many cases.

So what you say could theoretically be a problem, but it is unlikely to be in practice.

You don't care about the general case, you care about your case. People who can't be collected from are called "judgement proof". In cases where real money is at stake being "judgement proof" includes not owning property, receiving legal paychecks, banking in or even visiting countries that have treaties with where the problem occurred. You probably don't, and don't want to, live this way.

Sure you can get away with murder if you don't get caught.

[Lootman]

The first and most important is that, in the event of you making a claim, your insurer would have to make inquiries to every other driver licensing authority on the planet and ask if they have a record of a "John Smith from London" ever having had a driving license there, and being banned. Perhaps as you suggest that is or was a simpler matter within the EU. But what about everywhere else? I just cannot see that happening as a normal part of claims processing, and I worked for an insurer for 4 years.

In practice they listen to your accent, and perhaps look at a few available records, make a good guess and do an enquiry or two. This will usually be effective if you are not a spy.

The example I was thinking about, it is a British person who lived overseas for a time, got a license there, was banned there, and then came back to the UK and drove on his UK license here.

His accent would indicate nothing. So it would come down to those "few available records" that are available to your insurer.