Problems with repairing EVs

[redsturgeon]

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos- ... 023-03-20/

It seems that even minor damage can result in a write off for EVs if the battery pack is only slightly damaged, thus making the EV a less sustainable choice than perhaps an ICE.

John

[88V8]

It seems that even minor damage can result in a write off for EVs if the battery pack is only slightly damaged, thus making the EV a less sustainable choice than perhaps an ICE.

Tesla's use of a massive component - in this case the battery - as a stressed member is sensible in engineering terms. And has a long history, the most familiar may be the humble farm tractor which often has the engine as a stressed member, first credited to the Fordson Model F of 1915.
However, engines are repairable.
Exposing the battery pack to an enhanced risk of damage is simply cynical and plays on the ignorant notion that anything EV is 'good'. Unfortunately the generation that knew how to repair things is passing, along with the idea that machinery should be repairable and moreover repairable by the average DIYer.
EVs will just give another twist to the throwaway spiral. As you say, not at all 'sustainable'.

Another EV problem in terms of normal use is that few garages are able to service or repair the propulsion trains and battery packs of EVs. It requires an investment in special equipment and training that is not economic for small garages.
A neighbour with a little Peugeot had to have the car trailered 70 miles to a workshop when the local main dealer could not help.

As with charging stations, we are far away from a sustainable transport situation.
Although we do have the technology; it's called the horse.

V8

[airbus330]

One of so many reasons not to be an early adopter of new tech.
Green Credentials
Fire Risk
Poor recharge infrastructure
Range
Higher Insurance
Affordability
Questionable resale value
now, reparability.

It'll all get addressed in time, but not the government published time.
Unless, of course, they'd like motoring to be affordable only for the rich?

[88V8]

It'll all get addressed in time, but not the government published time.
Unless, of course, they'd like motoring to be affordable only for the rich?

To be fair, new technologies have always been the province of the rich. Cars in the early 1900s.

So far, EVs have overwhelmingly been bought by the rich/middle class with their own drives & garages & home chargers, sponging off subsidies contributed through their taxes by the 'disadvantaged'.
But how else could it be done? Someone has to the 'early adopter'.

Now we are beginning to see EVs come into the secondary market. And eventually when the price of battery replacements dawns there will be a storm of complaints over mis-sold battery condition/range.
There are ways of interrogating the software of EVs to ascertain battery condition. Here for instance is a thread on a Tesla forum
Battery health is unfortunately going to be tough to test -- some things I would check are the battery pack part numbers (check against the "bad" or "problematic" ones that have been in market), compared original miles vs today (then you back into a curve of degradation although it's best guess at most) and sadly but truly, you're going to have to ask the seller his charging regimen and even more believe it.
but in general there is widespread ignorance in the garage & resale dealer world, and certainly amongst potential buyers.

Condition should be readily ascertainable via the car's software but EV manufacturer have had other priorities, infotainment for instance, and chose to bury the data in sub-menus not accessible to normal folk.
Hopefully this will change, it certainly needs to,

V8

[scrumpyjack]

So far, EVs have overwhelmingly been bought by the rich/middle class with their own drives & garages & home chargers, sponging off subsidies contributed through their taxes by the 'disadvantaged'.

V8

Well hardly. It's the rich wot pay all the taxes so they are 'subsidising' themselves!

[9873210]

Condition should be readily ascertainable via the car's software but EV manufacturer have had other priorities, infotainment for instance, and chose to bury the data in sub-menus not accessible to normal folk.
Hopefully this will change, it certainly needs to,

V8

It's harder than you think.

First, characterizing the current state of a battery is hard, even if you know it's entire operational history. There are lots of edge cases and while any particular one will be rare, in aggregate they are quite common. Dealing with enough of them to be say 95% accurate is difficult. This is in part because batteries do not degrade uniformly, they tend to lose large chunks of performance during isolate extreme events. Tracking and characterizing rare events is harder than tracking charging cycles or amps in and out.

Second if you rely on the cars software to tell you the state of the battery you rely on that software not being tampered with. There will be money to be made by tampering. The tamperers can use technology that is years, perhaps decades, ahead of that available when the car was manufactured. Even if that's just Moore's law that's a hundred fold advantage within the life of a car. Also putting in security can run afoul of right to repair.

[airbus330]

I reckon the last few posts underline the heavy risk that anyone buying and owning an EV is exposing themselves too. Its a very Donald Rumsfeld series of unknowns.
If you're convinced that EV is your way forward, at least mitigate the risk and lease the wretched thing.
As the old saying goes, if it flies, floats, farts or fornicates, rent it. I'm trying to think of a suitable F word for an EV

[Lanark]

I'm trying to think of a suitable F word for an EV

Flammable

[scotview]

Our ID3 is the best car my wife has ever had. Her next car will be a Dacia Stepway auto (with heated seats). Cheap as chips, a holding pattern till we see what will happen to cars, of any type, in the future.

[swill453]

Our ID3 is the best car my wife has ever had. Her next car will be a Dacia Stepway auto (with heated seats). Cheap as chips, a holding pattern till we see what will happen to cars, of any type, in the future.

Just curious, why wouldn't she get another ID.3?

Scott.

[CliffEdge]

Our ID3 is the best car my wife has ever had. Her next car will be a Dacia Stepway auto (with heated seats). Cheap as chips, a holding pattern till we see what will happen to cars, of any type, in the future.

£18000 cheap as chips?

Perhaps, chips aren't cheap nowadays

[scotview]

Just curious, why wouldn't she get another ID.3?

Scott.

Her ID3 was £25K new, just over two years ago. Replacement starts at £39.5K.

Also, she will probably be visiting Glasgow more regularly and she would prefer an ICE rather than the charging angst of a BEV, from her real world driving experience.

As always, her test drive will be the clincher. Note, we have had absolutely no repair issues or problems with the ID3.

[AF62]

It seems that even minor damage can result in a write off for EVs if the battery pack is only slightly damaged, thus making the EV a less sustainable choice than perhaps an ICE.

According to that article, only if you have chosen to buy an EV from that weirdo Musk, and not established car manufacturers such as Ford.

One of so many reasons not to be an early adopter of new tech.
Green Credentials
Fire Risk
Poor recharge infrastructure
Range
Higher Insurance
Affordability
Questionable resale value
now, reparability.

Green credentials - didn’t get mine for those reasons.
Fire risk - far more risk of setting a petrol car on fire
Poor recharge infrastructure - that’s just nonsense, there are chargers everywhere now
Range - mine will travel further than I want to drive
Higher insurance - nope, cheap as chips
Affordability - not when compared against equivalent cars and taking a whole cost view
Resale value - as good as any other type of car
Repairability - in this situation it’s the insurance companies issue, but only if you own Tesla

[redsturgeon]

It seems that even minor damage can result in a write off for EVs if the battery pack is only slightly damaged, thus making the EV a less sustainable choice than perhaps an ICE.

According to that article, only if you have chosen to buy an EV from that weirdo Musk, and not established car manufacturers such as Ford.

If you read the article it says that the issue is with many manufacturers although Tesla may be making matters even worse by their actions.

John

[scrumpyjack]

Some friends have a Nissan Leaf which they have had for 4 years or so. They had a problem with the battery as some of the cells failed. Nissan Fixed it FOC by replacing the faulty cells, not the whole battery. They have been very happy with it as I have been with my ID4.

[AF62]

According to that article, only if you have chosen to buy an EV from that weirdo Musk, and not established car manufacturers such as Ford.

If you read the article it says that the issue is with many manufacturers although Tesla may be making matters even worse by their actions.

That isn’t my reading of the article.

And given my insurer is willing to charge £250 to insure a £40k EV, it isn’t their view either (and that’s for my wife who only has 2 years NCD).

[Lootman]

Some friends have a Nissan Leaf which they have had for 4 years or so. They had a problem with the battery as some of the cells failed. Nissan Fixed it FOC by replacing the faulty cells, not the whole battery. They have been very happy with it as I have been with my ID4.

My wife has a Honda hybrid, which has a second, large battery for propulsion, situated under the rear seat.

So not a true EV but when that large battery failed, Honda replaced it for free, labour aside. And it was a few years old.

Maybe the manufacturers should similarly be on the hook for the cost of battery failures, even if the car is out of warranty? They might then design them better.

[airbus330]

It seems that even minor damage can result in a write off for EVs if the battery pack is only slightly damaged, thus making the EV a less sustainable choice than perhaps an ICE.

According to that article, only if you have chosen to buy an EV from that weirdo Musk, and not established car manufacturers such as Ford.

One of so many reasons not to be an early adopter of new tech.
Green Credentials
Fire Risk
Poor recharge infrastructure
Range
Higher Insurance
Affordability
Questionable resale value
now, reparability.

Green credentials - didn’t get mine for those reasons.
Fire risk - far more risk of setting a petrol car on fire
Poor recharge infrastructure - that’s just nonsense, there are chargers everywhere now
Range - mine will travel further than I want to drive
Higher insurance - nope, cheap as chips
Affordability - not when compared against equivalent cars and taking a whole cost view
Resale value - as good as any other type of car
Repairability - in this situation it’s the insurance companies issue, but only if you own Tesla

Green Credentials- you might not have done so, but government and many other organisations are pressuring their populations to go electric for eco reasons, up to the point of legislating IC vehicles out of existence.
Fire Risk- the risk is different and far less well understood for electrical cars. Fire emergency services are still struggling to come up with practical strategies to contain a fire that will burn for many hours, even days.
Range- Again, your valid personal experience, but the 8 hr queues to top up charge on the M5 over Christmas tend to suggest otherwise.
Poor Infrastructure-You speak as you find, but it is generally accepted that the UK in particular has allowed EV sales to outstrip EV charging infrastructure and there is no great willingness for government or industry to accelerate the roll out of chargers.
Higher Insurance - I can only relate what I have read. But the insurance industry are usually pretty quick to spot a risk.
Affordability- I looked at this last year. A petrol base Vauxhall Corsa is c 19k the E-Corsa was 28k. At this moment depreciation on EV's is high due to stagnant demand in the used market, which may change. The running costs have significantly increased if you don't have easy access to home charging on a friendly tariff, preferably topped up with an expensive solar/battery home system.
What do poorer people do buying at the 8k pricepoint, where the vehicle may have a 10k battery liability?
ReSale value-- this is known unknown as the development of EVs has been rapid, but still in small numbers vs ICE cars. Even car dealers (source Car Dealer Mag) are unwilling to price EVs at this time due to the opacity of the market.
Repairability- Eventually it will be everybody's problem. If EVs do become to only game in town, repair issues will force up the costs of insurance, reduce availability of used cars thus distorting the market prices. This before we even start to think about what to do with the written off EV's. The idea of affordable motoring for the masses starts to become worryingly diminished. I have to confess that this last point is the one that really concerns me, as it seems clear to me that the political direction of travel is to price the majority of folk off the road and onto public transport. The EV is just a stalking horse helping them to achieve this.

[AF62]

I have to confess that this last point is the one that really concerns me, as it seems clear to me that the political direction of travel is to price the majority of folk off the road and onto public transport. The EV is just a stalking horse helping them to achieve this.

You can buy a used EV for less than £5k.

As for the rest of your views, simply not my experience of owning and driving an EV for the last couple of years, regularly driving long distances across the country.

[airbus330]

I have to confess that this last point is the one that really concerns me, as it seems clear to me that the political direction of travel is to price the majority of folk off the road and onto public transport. The EV is just a stalking horse helping them to achieve this.

You can buy a used EV for less than £5k.

As for the rest of your views, simply not my experience of owning and driving an EV for the last couple of years, regularly driving long distances across the country.

Respect your views, and although I don't share them, I'll probably have to join the club at some point

WRT 5k EV's. Yes there are. Mainly 10+ yr Leaf or Zoe's with leased battery. I could bore you with the travails of my cousin's ancient Leaf, but i won't