A car to learn on

[Newroad]

Afternoon All.

It getting his license time for Mstr Newroad (and will be the same for Miss Newroad in a few years).

We have been a one car family for some time, but are now temporarily considering a second car, mainly so the kids can learn on a manual, but also, as a runaround car for us on the rare occasions needed.

I know there is a plethora of models to choose from, as well to buy from (e.g. main dealers, independents and private) so to give you a point to work up, down or across from, here's a straw-man starter for five?

https://www.spoticar.co.uk/second-hand-cars/peugeot-108-10-vti-active-euro-5-3dr-euro-5-buckinghamshire-high-wycombe-200284231

Any thoughts or recommendations, with reliability and insurance costs being key factors?

Regards, Newroad

[staffordian]

I don't think you could go far wrong with a Ford Fiesta. Plenty to choose from at all price points and ages, pretty reliable, spares and servicing reasonably priced and pretty good handling.

Not sure how they stack up insurance wise but I'd expect them to be at or below average.

[airbus330]

Bearing in mind that they are at the point in their driving careers when they are most likely to crash, I decided on something a bit meatier than the 107/Aygo and started the kids on a Citroen Nemo mini van. Grp 1 insurance on the 1.4 petrol and grat for the surf boards. If you want something more conventional, the older VW Polo are made from metal thicker than tin foil.

[DrFfybes]

I think a primary concern these days is insurance costs.

In your shoes I'd probably go something cheap to repair (Ford) or reliable (Yaris).

I think you are wise to go for something 'old school' - manual gears and handbrake, normal key entry, no touch screen.

Another option is going for something older - ABS and airbags have been common in small cars for many years, and NCAP has been out there for 25 years or so, but bear in mind that a 4 star rated 20 year old Yaris will still fare a lot worse than a 1 star rated 2018 Jeep Wrangler if they hit each other.

Paul

[didds]

you are about to receive a billion different suggestions, all equally valid so here is my billion and one-th!

Cheap and reliable
Cheap to insure [*]
RobustWNo gimmicks - they really don't need electric windows, bluetooth in car entertainment, hands free satnavs and the rest (if the "right" vehicle hasn't got them etc)
small vans (CF Citroen nemo) are only two seaters, so no giving swathes of friends a lift in party mode
- doubles up to take all that rubbish to the top as well

[*]On insurance
*if at ALL feasible they insure in their own name from day one - start building that no-claims (although these days it seems insurers are more lenient and may offer NCD on named drivers on other policies...)
when they pass their insurance WILL go UP. So when getting quotes not only find the "learner driver" situation but also the "just passed" quote, for
comparisons between vehicles etc
Avoid telemetric based insurances IMO - especially if they curtail evening/night driving - what happens when your young person gets an evening job, or
one requiring a 6am leave in winter?

and the obvious I suspect - get breakdown insurance.

All the above based on 3 x "kids" of my own... my caveat being the most recent of this all was 5 years ago so things possibly have changed in part (especially the years NCD as a named driver maybe)

[BullDog]

Ours learned in a Citroën C1, cheap to buy and run. Dead easy to drive. No idea if a C1, or Peugeot/Toyota variants are still around. But highly recommend if they are.

[bungeejumper]

Prioritise simplicity and safety, but don't blow the whole budget on a first car, because it's always sad to see a grown man cry. A quarter of young first-time drivers admit to having had an accident in their first year, and that's probably on the low side for obvious reasons. (That's also an "accident", as distinct from a "nudge" or a "scrape".) They'll get through this phase, and so will you.

https://www.ala.co.uk/connect/tackling- ... 20and%2034.

It's a long time since I started my two daughters off with simple six year old cars (and used cars were less reliable in those days), but they both performed to type. One tramlined a Mercedes while getting out of a parking space, and the other had a disagreement with an oncoming lamp post that just refused to give way. They both shed bitter tears, and learned that they weren't as infallible as thy thought, and went on to become excellent safe drivers. Job done, I'm proud of them.

I was slightly less impressed by my nephew, who was given his grandfather's pristine Fiesta and immediately rolled it on black ice, just 400 yards from home.

BJ

[Tedx]

This was asked fairly recently and, as Didds has said, I'd go for a small van. Tough as nails, easy to sell on, only 2 seats and it's always handy having a van in the family.

[9873210]

We have been a one car family for some time, but are now temporarily considering a second car, mainly so the kids can learn on a manual,

This may well be the only manual transmission they ever drive. Driving a manual is fast becoming a cultural artifact rather than a practical necessity.

[quelquod]

I was slightly less impressed by my nephew, who was given his grandfather's pristine Fiesta and immediately rolled it on black ice, just 400 yards from home.

BJ

You just have to accept the statistics on newly-qualified drivers, one of those things where experience counts for everything. One of my university flatmates bought an ex-GPO van when he passed his test. Nice and cheap and pre-dented for him. Inside a month he jumped a set of lights on Edinburgh’s North Bridge and T-boned a Rolls-Royce. He’d have lost his no claims but he didn’t have any yet.

[airbus330]

Points of Order

The Nemo is a van/mpv with 5 seats, but the rear ones are fully removable. But a standard 2seat van is an idea.

The Black Box Insurance 'can' be a good thing, but you have to study the t&c carefully as all have different limitations and penalties. This is particularly true with night time restrictions, where often students are working in the evening or shifts at Amazon. But some of the policies don't have that. We were very pleased with the black box, and it also had the side effect of being Dad's spy in the cab, keeping the exuberance down.

The dreaded Bluetooth is pretty essential now for hands free calls as well as music streaming. So safety, legality and less moaning.

Re. NCD. This is crucial obviously. If you have 2 kids sharing one car. Alternate them on the policy each year. NCD is valid for 2 years, so you can build it for both. You're probably aware that if you put an older driver on as a named driver, this will bring the premium down.

Left field suggestion. A classic car, like an 80's Mini, Land Rover, can be very cheap for youngsters, but obviously comes with maintenance requirements, so sadly not for us.

[Newroad]

Hi All.

Working back up the chain with some thoughts/responses ...

Noted on the black box variations - I'll keep an eye on it if we go for one (which was our broad line of thought). As an aside, if we were to drive it, are we subject to the same constraints?
I would find it hard without Bluetooth etc, so something to ideally get as others may be the same. Other stuff less important
Definitely will focus on a policy that allows accumulation of NCD
I realise that manuals are less common than they once were, but I'd still prefer Mstr Newroad to have the flexibility for the time being. As it happens, I had to drive one recently in a work-supplied hire car
Completely agree on two seats - less sure about a "van". Mstr Newroad is quite tall (around 6'4") so a small two-seated city-car allowing focus on the front two seats strikes (and planning to avoid the back seats) is probably the go. Will be the same if we ever use it - will only be a second car for one/two people
No plan to blow the budget - will be an "oldish" car one way or another (maybe 6-9 years) - but unlikely to go something really old (10+ years).
Had a quick look at Fiesta availability - not many around in the same price range as some of the other small cars. Will look at some of the others mentioned

Thanks for the responses!

Regards, Newroad

[airbus330]

[list]Noted on the black box variations - I'll keep an eye on it if we go for one (which was our broad line of thought). As an aside, if we were to drive it, are we subject to the same constraints?

If the Black Box is hard wired into the car, then yes all drivers are monitored.

Some policies only do a period of monitoring after the policy is taken out, then stop.

Some policies are App based using the mobile phone. So presumably the monitoring only happens when the phones is in transit. These were not available when we did the BB policy, so I don't know if the specific phone has to be in the car for the policy to be active.

Watch out for fitting/removal charges.

We found that after the 1st year of driving the BB price advantage rapidly diminished and was not worthwhile after 2 full years of experience, but this may vary with locality and vehicle.

Best of luck.

[airbus330]

[list]Noted on the black box variations - I'll keep an eye on it if we go for one (which was our broad line of thought). As an aside, if we were to drive it, are we subject to the same constraints?

If the Black Box is hard wired into the car, then yes all drivers are monitored.

Some policies only do a period of monitoring after the policy is taken out, then stop.

Some policies are App based using the mobile phone. So presumably the monitoring only happens when the phones is in transit. These were not available when we did the BB policy, so I don't know if the specific phone has to be in the car for the policy to be active.

Watch out for fitting/removal charges.

We found that after the 1st year of driving the BB price advantage rapidly diminished and was not worthwhile after 2 full years of experience, but this may vary with locality and vehicle.

Best of luck.

PS.. when choosing a car, beware of anything on the car that is not 'factory fitted'. Non standard anything is a real red flag to insurers. We fell foul of a car that had retro tinted rear windows and had to have it removed to get cover.

[Newroad]

Hi Airbus330.

My apology for not being clear.

There appear to be BlackBox related insurances which somehow constrain the times of day when a driver (all drivers?) can drive.

If this is true, can it be monitored/configured so Mstr Newroad is somehow recognised to be driving and so constrained, but not me and Mrs Newroad?

Regards, Newroad

[DrFfybes]

Hi All.


I would find it hard without Bluetooth etc, so something to ideally get as others may be the same. Other stuff less important

I realise that manuals are less common than they once were, but I'd still prefer Mstr Newroad to have the flexibility for the time being. As it happens, I had to drive one recently in a work-supplied hire car

I agree about the manual - having that licence gives you flexibility.

But Bluetooth for a new/learner driver? Do you really think giving them the option to scroll through their playlists or feed texts to the in-car system is a good idea?

Phone off, in a bag, in the boot, for at least the first year

Paul

[Newroad]

Hi Paul.

I think you're right in an ideal world re Bluetooth. However, in this world, I'd rather Mstr Newroad to try and do something via an inbuilt car system than standalone (which might be what would happen otherwise).

Regards, Newroad

[airbus330]

Hi Airbus330.

My apology for not being clear.

There appear to be BlackBox related insurances which somehow constrain the times of day when a driver (all drivers?) can drive.

If this is true, can it be monitored/configured so Mstr Newroad is somehow recognised to be driving and so constrained, but not me and Mrs Newroad?

Regards, Newroad

I see your point. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer. When we used BB we avoided any policy that put time restrictions on the driver as both our kids did evening jobs from the start. Apart from being restrictive, I don't remember it being markedly cheaper to have the time restrictions.

MSE has a page for new drivers insurance which is up to date, might be worth a read.

[9873210]

I realise that manuals are less common than they once were, but I'd still prefer Mstr Newroad to have the flexibility for the time being. As it happens, I had to drive one recently in a work-supplied hire car

When I got my license, my instructor had a manual mini-metro and my mother had an automatic mini. I took the test in the instructor's manual car. Most of my experience was in the auto with my mother. The biggest problem switching between the two was one had the indicators on the left stalk and the other on the right, so I occasionally signaled turns with the wipers.

Essentially the skills of manipulating a clutch are orthogonal to good judgement. You don't need to train them at the same time.
Driving an auto might be slightly safer since it keeps the new driver's attention out of the car and helps avoid cognitive overload. It's easier to supervise a learner when your attention is outside where it belongs and not worrying about downshifting to first at 40mph. Also with an auto you won't have to replace a clutch after training two new drivers.

That said there's nothing wrong with using a manual, there's still more available in older cars. But there tends to be a lot of machismo and hair-shirt about driving manuals which explains why there are still so many out there despite automatics being clearly superior since the mid '00s.

[Lanark]

Mazda 2
https://youtu.be/IlsrE8sUk9I?t=550 - review from a driving instructor

I do think learning on a manual makes you a better driver, and the Mazda 2 makes it easy enough that it wont require a bunch of extra lessons.

You can easily find a used one in decent condition for under £10K