Electric cars - BBC

[Lootman]

And I haven't even started on the need to download yet another app on her mobile, just so that she can talk to the bloody machines in the first place!

Rule number one. Never buy a car that needs a phone to work.

[AF62]

Rule number one. Never buy a car that needs a phone to work.

But always buy a car that you can plug a phone into to use Apple CarPlay or the Google alternative, as that is far better than the built in systems.

[airbus330]

Too many unknown unknowns to plonk 40k on what could be a rapidly depreciating asset.
Funny if diesel ends up being the go to choice for us Luddites in our ICE cars, sharing the remaining fuel stops with the truckers!

Fer chrissake. Ain't gonna happen. Not for my wife, not for anybody who can choose to buy 500 miles' worth of fuel at a forecourt in the daytime and then complete her (return) journey with no worries.

BJ

I think you have illustrated a point which is rarely made in the media, in that, the argument for BEV ownership becomes more difficult to make the further down the financial ecosystem of cars that you travel. Most MSM discussion, though not all, is made on the economics of buying new cars, but once you get to the sub 10k market (and yes there will be some early Nissan Leafs on Autotrader sub 10k) the maintenance risk really does put off most when compared to buying an easily fixable and understandable ICE. The potential reluctance of the elderly driver to adopt BEV due to super confusing apps and technical nuances of electric power, I have never seen discussed, but is probably a big worry for many. It is a shame that the BEV infrastructure roll out is such an on going cluster f as the simplicity of BEV and the future potential of autopilot could be a huge boon to the elderly or disabled.

[DrFfybes]

Rule number one. Never buy a car that needs a phone to work.

But always buy a car that you can plug a phone into to use Apple CarPlay or the Google alternative, as that is far better than the built in systems.

Last time I saw a car my phone would plug into it belonged to George Cowley.

[AF62]

It is a shame that the BEV infrastructure roll out is such an on going cluster f as the simplicity of BEV and the future potential of autopilot could be a huge boon to the elderly or disabled.

Have you actually used the BEV infrastructure recently?

[JohnB]

The secondhand market is very new for BEVs, and will take a long time to get to the predictability we have for ICEs, where non-enthusiasts understand what nice little runners and bangers are. But once we get a clear view of real-world battery lifetimes, then repair and maintenance costs should be less than for ICEs, as there are just fewer moving parts and less thermal cycling. I agree that with fast change early models will be stranded with very poor resale value, and you could be bitten with software abandonment, but otherwise an automatic BEV with lots of assists and fading range could be a good granny choice.

One key thing about BEVs is the total cost of ownership is lower because the higher purchase price is offset against lower fuel costs. This has always been true for ICEs with better mpg having more attraction when younger, but is more extreme for BEVs, and may introduce a bigger purchase barrier, forcing those on limited budgets to buy older cars than they would like. But with 10 years before ICEs start falling out of segments of the secondhand market, there is plenty of time to adapt.

[Lootman]

The secondhand market is very new for BEVs, and will take a long time to get to the predictability we have for ICEs, where non-enthusiasts understand what nice little runners and bangers are. But once we get a clear view of real-world battery lifetimes, then repair and maintenance costs should be less than for ICEs, as there are just fewer moving parts and less thermal cycling. I agree that with fast change early models will be stranded with very poor resale value, and you could be bitten with software abandonment, but otherwise an automatic BEV with lots of assists and fading range could be a good granny choice.

One key thing about BEVs is the total cost of ownership is lower because the higher purchase price is offset against lower fuel costs. This has always been true for ICEs with better mpg having more attraction when younger, but is more extreme for BEVs, and may introduce a bigger purchase barrier, forcing those on limited budgets to buy older cars than they would like. But with 10 years before ICEs start falling out of segments of the secondhand market, there is plenty of time to adapt.

But why would "ICEs start falling out of segments of the secondhand market" in 2033? The newest ICEVs will only be 3 years old then? Given the large improvement in reliability and the suppression of corrosion over the last few decades, many of them will still be running in 2050.

And hybrids, which drive the same as ICEVs, can be sold until 2035 and so many will still be around in 2055. I will be over 100 years old then and, if I am around at all then, I won't be driving.

So your "granny" doesn't have to bother dealing with the learning curve and high upfront cost of a BEV. She can simply drive a hybrid. And older folks do not drive as many miles and so, again, their cars last longer with less maintenance and fuel costs.

My wife's hybrid is 20 years old. It has no rust and runs perfectly. She paid £10K for it second hand. It is not tricked out with lots of distractive tech - just ABS, cruise control, airbags and central locking, just like an ICEV. It has a proper key and no screen. She can own two more like that (she is 58) and be good until the 2050s.

Whilst I am happy to drive old bangers anyway, always have done and I am not changing now. If you are over 50, and I suspect that most here are, then you can ignore BEVs.

[scotview]

If you are over 50, and I suspect that most here are, then you can ignore BEVs.

No you can't.

It is written into cross party legislation that ICE vehicles are going to be outlawed. This legislation isn't negotiable and has already caused a massive (and irreversible) change of direction for the car industry. A lot of the above discussion in this thread is irrelevant because choice is being removed by statute.

[Lootman]

If you are over 50, and I suspect that most here are, then you can ignore BEVs.

No you can't.

It is written into cross party legislation that ICE vehicles are going to be outlawed. This legislation isn't negotiable and has already caused a massive (and irreversible) change of direction for the car industry. A lot of the above discussion in this thread is irrelevant because choice is being removed by statute.

But when would this "outlawing" take place?

There would be a huge public backlash if that happened whilst there are still millions of ICEVs and hybrids on the road, which there will be for another 20-30 years. And what about classic cars (exempt from ULEZ).

The government would have to offer large scrappage payments plus subsidies for new BEVs.

I would have thought a bigger issue is fewer petrol stations. But as long as there is demand then the phase-out of those will be gradual.

[scotview]

But when would this "outlawing" take place?

Maybe sooner than we think.

I see politicians doubling down on net zero, especially with the press freaking out on the current "apocalyptic" heat waves.

Car manufacturers are now making massive capital investments into BEV production (some maybe too late).

China is about to flood the UK car market with cheap, acceptable quality BEVs. It is an imminent tsunami that may trigger trade wars.

Oilcos won't support the UK's HC fuel supply and distribution industry if the future look grim for their profits.

Logic, transparency and science doesn't figure into today's (UK) political classes, they don't care about the populace (yet).

[88V8]

If you are over 50, and I suspect that most here are, then you can ignore BEVs.

No you can't.
It is written into cross party legislation that ICE vehicles are going to be outlawed.

Only new cars. And not even new cars because the date will be put back.
I have never bought a new car, and by 2030 our newest car will only be 40 years old, so plenty of life left, probably more than me

V8

[Howard]

It’s interesting to read about elderly drivers worried about driving BEVs.

We got a new BEV two and a half years ago. It costs a lot less to run overall than the modest VW Golf it replaced. (Cheaper lease cost, cheaper insurance and much cheaper fuel cost).

Mrs H is not a sophisticated driver. She got in the car and asked how to drive it and I showed her D for forward, R for reverse and P for park. Having that information she set off and since then has driven it very happily. It is easier to drive than an auto Golf.

Mrs H wouldn’t dream of using a smartphone. The car doesn’t need one. It is fun to drive, costs pennies to charge in our garage and just needs a service yearly.

Maybe we are young at heart? But a Kia BEV is a wonderful second car and very suitable if one has an area around the house to fit a charger. With a range of 270 - 300 miles we’ve only had to charge it at a public charger once and that was as a precaution during a 250 mile journey at motorway speeds.

regards

Howard

PS I do use my phone to send addresses to the car before we go somewhere new. We use major roads and motorways a lot and the satnav is good at warning about traffic delays and helps us avoid them. What’s not to like?

[airbus330]

It is a shame that the BEV infrastructure roll out is such an on going cluster f as the simplicity of BEV and the future potential of autopilot could be a huge boon to the elderly or disabled.

Have you actually used the BEV infrastructure recently?

Nope, as I don't own one.But I have a 2 local family members and a friend who are very early adopters , the friend is on BEV #3 and the 1 family member is using a very early Leaf owned from new. The other is a late convert with an ID3, bought mainly for tax reasons So, from this I can get a fairly good idea of the infrastructure in South Wales. The same story time after time is unreliable charging on any trip that is beyond there and back. One of the cars is used to commercially visit farms in rural Wales, he is comfortable planning his journeys to the nearest metre and it works for him because he is totally committed to the tech. The other 2 have ICE cars for any journey that takes them out of their 'there and back range'. All report an increase in charger availability, but the rate of occasions where they are unable to charge due to the charger being broken or there being a queue to get on a charger makes them shy away from relying on the BEV.
BEV's make sense for shorter trips.
Where you have a home charger.
When your schedule is unlikely to change.
In a city.
They can do anything an ICE car can do, but in an inferior way.
As such, IMO, the BEV, as it stands in 2023, is a technology being forced on us prematurely, for political reasons and, unless the government seriously change course, will result in a curtailment of the freedom of personal travel which our generation have benefited from. Young people, poor people, disabled people, rural people, trades people will rue the day that, we, the comfortably off allowed it to happen. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have a BEV, but the compulsion really sticks in my throat.

[scotview]

unless the government seriously change course,

Do you think that a change of course can happen now, after the likes of VW has gone through a massive pain barrier that is risking it's very existence.

I find it hard to personally appreciate the massive technical effort the car manufacturers have made to implement BEV strategies. I certainly cannot conceive of them having to reverse the existential changes they have made.

Even at this stage of net zero implementation we have gone through a historic level event which I dont think the man in the street can possibly comprehend. I personally don't know if this pain has been or will be worth it.

[airbus330]

unless the government seriously change course,

Do you think that a change of course can happen now, after the likes of VW has gone through a massive pain barrier that is risking it's very existence.

I find it hard to personally appreciate the massive technical effort the car manufacturers have made to implement BEV strategies. I certainly cannot conceive of them having to reverse the existential changes they have made.

Even at this stage of net zero implementation we have gone through a historic level event which I dont think the man in the street can possibly comprehend. I personally don't know if this pain has been or will be worth it.

A change of direction is less needed than a change in the speed of change.
AFAIK The traditional car manufacturers have been horsewhipped into this change to their businesses. It is far from clear if all of them will survive. VW is already complaining about customers unwilling to buy BEV's. Ford is reporting massive BEV losses. In the meantime the Chinese could become an overwhelming force in car production as they have all the cards, raw materials, batt. tech, gigantic production halls and absolutely the minimum morals, to beat the European makers into expensive niche manufacturing. Interesting that Toyota have hedged their bets a bit, so there may be survivors.
I suppose from a selfish POV, China probably is the only realistic chance for affordable BEV's for the masses as we march towards a BEV world. But, he says donning his tinfoil hat, that was the Chinese plan all along.

[AF62]

Have you actually used the BEV infrastructure recently?

Nope, as I don't own one.But I have a 2 local family members and a friend who are very early adopters , the friend is on BEV #3 and the 1 family member is using a very early Leaf owned from new. The other is a late convert with an ID3, bought mainly for tax reasons So, from this I can get a fairly good idea of the infrastructure in South Wales. The same story time after time is unreliable charging on any trip that is beyond there and back. One of the cars is used to commercially visit farms in rural Wales, he is comfortable planning his journeys to the nearest metre and it works for him because he is totally committed to the tech. The other 2 have ICE cars for any journey that takes them out of their 'there and back range'. All report an increase in charger availability, but the rate of occasions where they are unable to charge due to the charger being broken or there being a queue to get on a charger makes them shy away from relying on the BEV.
BEV's make sense for shorter trips.
Where you have a home charger.
When your schedule is unlikely to change.
In a city.
They can do anything an ICE car can do, but in an inferior way.
As such, IMO, the BEV, as it stands in 2023, is a technology being forced on us prematurely, for political reasons and, unless the government seriously change course, will result in a curtailment of the freedom of personal travel which our generation have benefited from. Young people, poor people, disabled people, rural people, trades people will rue the day that, we, the comfortably off allowed it to happen. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have a BEV, but the compulsion really sticks in my throat.

An early low range Leaf and rural Wales. Well yes those are going to cause issues, although both solvable by using the right equipment for the task.

As for the number of chargers, well that is supply and demand. Until there are sufficient EV drivers demanding to use them then the commercial suppliers won't be providing them - but that is happening where people are using them, just take a look at any motorway service area and the ranks and ranks of new chargers.

So to say that the situation in rural Wales is typical of the situation across the whole of the UK is a bit of a stretch.

[bungeejumper]

As for the number of chargers, well that is supply and demand. Until there are sufficient EV drivers demanding to use them then the commercial suppliers won't be providing them - but that is happening where people are using them, just take a look at any motorway service area and the ranks and ranks of new chargers.

So to say that the situation in rural Wales is typical of the situation across the whole of the UK is a bit of a stretch.

Yeah, I'm sure everything's lovely for people who use motorways, with all that lovely traffic constantly passing by.

But for those of us who depend on more out-of-the-way rural routes, the calculation is whether or not I dare to attempt a journey across Salisbury Plain/North York Moors/mid-Wales, in the full knowledge that there's a goodish chance that the charging station on my map won't be working, or won't want to work with my particular car. Or that I can't get a mobile signal when it matters.

You won't have encountered such availability issues in the home counties, but it's still a bit of a deal-breaker for some of us.

BJ

[Lootman]

But for those of us who depend on more out-of-the-way rural routes, the calculation is whether or not I dare to attempt a journey across Salisbury Plain/North York Moors/mid-Wales, in the full knowledge that there's a goodish chance that the charging station on my map won't be working, or won't want to work with my particular car. Or that I can't get a mobile signal when it matters.

The very idea of needing a mobile signal to refuel a vehicle or else be stranded in the middle of nowhere is insane.

As is needing one to unlock your car doors or start the engine.

Didn't Elon Musk suggest that cars do not need steering wheels because you could just use a device to steer?

[airbus330]

So to say that the situation in rural Wales is typical of the situation across the whole of the UK is a bit of a stretch.

That kind of sums up the problem. If you're located in a conurbation or you're a motorway network user or you have a drive+charger then BEV a practical option But 12 million people live in a definable rural location (21.3%) and the infrastructure is poor to non existent with no coherent plan to correct the situation. If you are of the opinion that the current direction of travel is equitable, sadly I have to disagree, hence my opinion that 2030 roll out of an ICE ban is doomed to failure, and an unnecessary failure at that.

[Mike4]

My gut feeling is no matter how many EVs are sold the number of public chargers will always lag behind, and a significant proportion will not work/fit your car when you get there.

I can't see any incentive for Big Business to ever correct the current situation.