Used EV prices

[Arborbridge]

So verdict for sample of one - if you have off road parking and seldom drive more than 180 miles a nice BEV would be fine. And as a second car - brilliant.

regards

Howard

I have an iD3, and I more or less agree with your conclusion. There are many people in the iD FB Group who travel all over Europe from the UK and think nothing of it. I'm not sure I'd have the courage, but it must be 20 years since I drove abroad in anything!

I've travelled a thousand miles on holiday in my iD3, up to Alnwick and back to Sussex and found not one problem. However, most of my journeys are within 220 miles (one way), and I find that is quite doable and the ride is certainly good.

We still have the old Merc diesel as the second car and my wife prefers it for her journeys when alone.

Arb.

[DrFfybes]

This weekend our Niece came up from Lindin in their BEV Cupra. 150 miles each way.

On the way up the stopped about 20 miles away to "top up" at a fast charger. It cost them £30, which is a chunk more than it would have cost in petrol in their Polo.

sat evening in Reading they parked at a Council car park charger, 30p/kWh, and only about 20 min to download the app and get it working. Over the evening he checked a few times, it was charging at about 400W

So, another stop and £15 on the way back. They weren't bothered, one conversation was spurred by Sky calling about our phone going up from £6 to £8/month, and him saying "yeah, we're on £30/month each for SIM only, I should do something about that". They then checked their data use which had peaked for both of them at under 6Gb in any month. I doubt they'll bother to do anything about the £200 or so they're wasting each year.

The car itself was quite nice, rode well except on uneven surfaces where it was like a loaded van, but the most striking thing about our passenger rides in it was not the performance, but the fact that the whole trip was spent by the 2 people who've had it since Easter still faffing trying to work out what all the driver aids do, what the warning bongs are, and how to turn them off or adjust them. Thes are 2 people who met doing their science PhDs at Oxford.

Last night a normally very quiet and reserved friend Iphoned me. He lives in Scotland and travels widely for work in the Oil industry, and bravely(?) bought (yes bought) his VW BEV about 3 years ago, and loved it when I saw him in Dec 2021. Worth more than he paid, great tax break, low running costs, free charging at various places. He has since changed jobs and the tax break has vanished, and now regrets is purchase. He admitted he found the range anxiety incredibly stressful, and actually ended up with a Police visit after finding someone would park her merc in the fast charger at one work site he visited and leave it all day, despite there being a normal charger next to it, and telling her exactly what he thought of her. I gather that some chargers now have a penalty fee for people who do this. Also I thought he was a little foolish to rely on the fast charger being available, but thought it better to say nothing.

So, pro's and cons, but to me for the private buyer the financial benefits don't seem that great as a main car, but we would undoubtably get a used one as a second car, if we didn't have 3 already.

Paul

[swill453]

We have had a KIA BEV for three years - due for its MOT in a couple of weeks.

Which model, please?

Scott.

[Arborbridge]

This weekend our Niece came up from Lindin in their BEV Cupra. 150 miles each way.

Paul

Ok, another anecdote for you

I charged up to 100% in Alnwick. Travelled 402 miles to home in Sussex. Charged once at Retford to 100%, during which time we had a sandwich lunch in the car and listened to the Archers. About an hour altogether.

This charge got us home, where we charged again.

Cost: £16.34 at Retford, £3.53 on home charge. Total £19.87, 4.94p a mile. My diesel cost 13.15p a mile at that time.
Of course, public charging is more expensive - had I charged publicly at the "Retford" rate I had, it would have been 9.13p a mile.

I don't know whether your niece is able to use the We Charge or Electroverse cards for the Born, but I find them very convenient, and there's a discount. Charging at a slow council charger would have been something to avoid, but I understand that depends on circumstances.
My id3 is virtually the same car as the Cupra Born - same basics, same battery.

Caveat: this was in August. I'm sure doing that journey now I would need to stop for another topup close to home due to ambient temperature being lower.

Arb.

[servodude]

This weekend our Niece came up from Lindin in their BEV Cupra. 150 miles each way.

Paul

Ok, another anecdote for you

I charged up to 100% in Alnwick. Travelled 402 miles to home in Sussex. Charged once at Retford to 100%, during which time we had a sandwich lunch in the car and listened to the Archers. About an hour altogether.

This charge got us home, where we charged again.

Cost: £16.34 at Retford, £3.53 on home charge. Total £19.87, 4.94p a mile. My diesel cost 13.15p a mile at that time.
Of course, public charging is more expensive - had I charged publicly at the "Retford" rate I had, it would have been 9.13p a mile.

I don't know whether your niece is able to use the We Charge or Electroverse cards for the Born, but I find them very convenient, and there's a discount. Charging at a slow council charger would have been something to avoid, but I understand that depends on circumstances.
My id3 is virtually the same car as the Cupra Born - same basics, same battery.

Caveat: this was in August. I'm sure doing that journey now I would need to stop for another topup close to home due to ambient temperature being lower.

Arb.

Few years back I was introduced to a chap what had driven to here in Melbourne (Oz) from Amsterdam in an electric car (aside from the ferries) - it's possible, even more so if you don't try and pretend it's got to behave like the old stuff!

[Arborbridge]

Few years back I was introduced to a chap what had driven to here in Melbourne (Oz) from Amsterdam in an electric car (aside from the ferries) - it's possible, even more so if you don't try and pretend it's got to behave like the old stuff!

Yes, there are trade offs. You just need to be aware and happy about them - then all is sunny.

I love driving the car.

Arb.

[Niksen]

This weekend our Niece came up from Lindin in their BEV Cupra. 150 miles each way.

On the way up the stopped about 20 miles away to "top up" at a fast charger. It cost them £30, which is a chunk more than it would have cost in petrol in their Polo.

Helpfully all the relatives I visit also have BEVs so if there is a need to charge, which usually there isn't because of the long range of my car, I plug it in at their house and they do the same when they visit me.

[DrFfybes]

This weekend our Niece came up from Lindin in their BEV Cupra. 150 miles each way.

Paul

Ok, another anecdote for you

[..]

I don't know whether your niece is able to use the We Charge or Electroverse cards for the Born, but I find them very convenient, and there's a discount. Charging at a slow council charger would have been something to avoid, but I understand that depends on circumstances.
My id3 is virtually the same car as the Cupra Born - same basics, same battery.

If I give you there number can you tell them how to sort the lane assist

The Council charger was a test, but would have been a PITA if they'd been relying on it, and I think a Friday afternoon trip meant time saved was more important than cost, and they lease it so aren't concerned about any potential battery life issues with a fast charger.

To be honest most of the time it makes sense for their trips into London and around their area, and I did get the impression that despite claims of not suffering from range anxiety, this was largely down to a policy of never letting it get below 30% and being prepared to pay a significant premium for that choice.

Paul

[DrFfybes]

Few years back I was introduced to a chap what had driven to here in Melbourne (Oz) from Amsterdam in an electric car (aside from the ferries) - it's possible, even more so if you don't try and pretend it's got to behave like the old stuff!

Helpfully all the relatives I visit also have BEVs so if there is a need to charge,

Two very important and much overlooked points, certainly from an angle I'd not really considered.

One is the obvious "more chargers needed" but I hadn't thought about the millions of domestic chargers being installed. Most of the time these are sat unused, and for some enterprising tech savvy individual this could be an opportunity (note, if rentmycharger.com becomes a multibagger, you heard it here first )

If we start from the premise that BEVs are NOT a direct replacement for an ICE, but more as an alternative transport method, then they can be viewed differently. Cars weren't initially a good replacement for horses, cost, poor range, poor infrastructure, lack of load carrying ability, but they were the solution to the pollution of City streets. Over time they developed into the convenient reliable comfortable vehicles we have today. There are applications for which they are not suited with current technology, situations where they are a perfect replacement, and situations where they are actually better than an ICE. Our local "ring and ride" bus is an BEV, a Mellor 'sigma 7', seems to operate fine so far.

We are unusual, we are one of the few people who still want/need a long estate car (able to take 1.8m flat load), and electric versions of these are limited to the £70k+ Audi A6 and BMW 5 series, although plenty of midsized Estates now out there and the VW ID7 estate is out soon at £50k. In another 20 years when the Avensis dies they'll probably be quite affordable

Of course there'll always be the whiners, but in future theat will mostly be the sound of the motor.

Paul

[Urbandreamer]

Few years back I was introduced to a chap what had driven to here in Melbourne (Oz) from Amsterdam in an electric car (aside from the ferries) - it's possible, even more so if you don't try and pretend it's got to behave like the old stuff!

Helpfully all the relatives I visit also have BEVs so if there is a need to charge,

Two very important and much overlooked points, certainly from an angle I'd not really considered.

One is the obvious "more chargers needed" but I hadn't thought about the millions of domestic chargers being installed. Most of the time these are sat unused, and for some enterprising tech savvy individual this could be an opportunity (note, if rentmycharger.com becomes a multibagger, you heard it here first )
..
Paul

Just for Info, while I've never owned an EV, I was part of an EV society before EV's went mainstream
As such I'm aware of groups like this.

https://www.zap-map.com/ev-guides/publi ... me-network

[servodude]

Cars weren't initially a good replacement for horses, cost, poor range, poor infrastructure, lack of load carrying ability, but they were the solution to the pollution of City streets.

I've thought about it this way for a while.

I'm (just) old enough to remember my grandad's horses for putting coal - they weren't still working, but they hadn't been knackered and were kept about in the yard. Even later the farm we lived next door to in the 80s were still using horses and this is Paisley not the outback....( they're still using horses in the outback... our friend's daughter just did a week's work experience at a muster near Broome... mostly on horseback with some helicopter thrown in for the stragglers)

But the idea of having to stop your vehicle in a particular spot to fill it up - rather than just give it an apple and a bit of encouragement to get through the day !?? crazy talk..!!

But we all got used to it, until we forgot it had ever been different and we couldn't believe it would ever change

It's always changing (actually, most things are).. just sometimes we notice more than others.

[Mike4]

Anyone know of a transcript I can read in 2 minutes instead of wasting half an hour watching a really slow paced presentation?

Youtube may not make people stupid but it sure makes them slow.

Youtube can adjust the play back speed and you can run at double time. Cog icon for settings. playback x2. Youtube offer a transcript. Expand "more" scroll down for "transcript." It's not youtube keeping you slow.

Another way is to scroll down and read the comments. Often one can infer the cogent points from a whole 30 minute video by reading the things people are saying about it, in just a minute or two.

[9873210]

Cars weren't initially a good replacement for horses, cost, poor range, poor infrastructure, lack of load carrying ability, but they were the solution to the pollution of City streets.

I think people misuse this analogy.

Trains, bicycles and then cars replaced horses because of overwhelming superiority on almost every metric. Early cars had problems, but early cars were hobbies and very rare. In 1900 there were fewer than a thousand cars in the UK. By 1908 the model T had attained overwhelming, absolutely crushing, superiority. That there were any working horses in 1930 is a testimony to inertia, tradition and thickheadedness.

I can't see any argument that BEV have overwhelming superiority on any metric except not destroying the planet. They may eke out a few percent advantage in a few other areas but it's nowhere near the one-sided horse v. model T.

Horses were functionally redundant less than 50 years after the first car. ICE vehicles are going strong over 130 years after the first BEV.

[JohnB]

When Top Gear buy 20 year old glamour cars and run them through dynamometer tests its surprising just how many horses have bolted. So don't assume your older ICE has factory level performance. If we are in new adopter mode for BEVs, there will be a 3-4 year lag before the second-hand market stabilises too. I see Airbnb listings are now mentioning charging ports.

I think the "not destroying the planet" metric is quite important. Even if you don't governments can force that view on you with tax rises or other annoyances. Range anxiety for an ICE could be that you get a personal quota of 5000 miles a year ...

[9873210]

I think the "not destroying the planet" metric is quite important. Even if you don't governments can force that view on you with tax rises or other annoyances. Range anxiety for an ICE could be that you get a personal quota of 5000 miles a year ...

Yes, but "not destroying the planet" does not motivate Homo economicus subsp. psychopathae. Homo economicus subsp. colletivae is going to have to be ruthless to make subsp. psychopathae internalize externalities.

Meanwhile, subsp. psychopathae claims that fly tipping is a human right, paints his face blue, and shouts "freedom".

[Arborbridge]

Horses were functionally redundant less than 50 years after the first car. ICE vehicles are going strong over 130 years after the first BEV.

That is true, but only partly valid as a major point in the argument. The first BEVs were held back by battery technology and the ease of developing and building the ICE. This meant that the immediate effort of industrialists naturally went in to ICE vehicles. In other words, BEVs were well before their time and had to wait for new imperatives to stimulate battery development. So that 130 years was inevitable, given the BEV was tried so early on. Powered flight had problems to, I seem to remember - "It'll never catch on, Too unreliable and expensive"

Just as ICE cars were well beyond the reach of the mass of people to start with, so it is now with BEVs. Prices will come down and range will increase as development proceeds. Peak BEV will be in 15-20 years or more, eventually giving way to some other system. They wil be commonplace in a few years time, whereas now they are just "frequently" seen. I notice that when people change their cars around here, that a notable percentage turn out to be replaced by BEVs or Hybrids. This will happen more and more, aided by the fact that people who buy them rarely want to go back to an ICE, unless they have to for financial reasons and certainly for some who get "spooked" by the range or charger anxiety*.

BTW, take all the above in the context of being from an electric sceptic who bought one just to try it out, despite being quite unconvinced of any of the economic arguments.

Arb.
*personally, I have yet to encounter problems, but maybe this is just luck. Maybe that will run out on my next long trip, who knows.

[Urbandreamer]

I can't see any argument that BEV have overwhelming superiority on any metric except not destroying the planet. They may eke out a few percent advantage in a few other areas but it's nowhere near the one-sided horse v. model T.

OK, I'll rise to the bait.

EV's have a vastly better torque "curve". Sorry I'm using a petrol head term. Torque in a EV is a horizontal line, then falls after a certain speed. With IC engines it climbs from, well technically ZERO. Peaks then falls in a curve.

ZERO? I'm sure that everyone who learned to drive a manual transmission has stalled their car, even if it is long ago.
IC engine can't start! They either need a man with a crank, or an electric motor.

I think that you mean, "any metric that I choose to regard as relevant, while ignoring all others".
Others HAVE pointed out the ease of pulling away at lights etc.

PS, re early cars/horses. Many early cars WERE electric, as they had the advantage of being easy and clean to use.

https://www.thehenryford.org/collection ... ets/11023/

Clara Ford, wife of Henry Ford, drove this Detroit Electric. In the years before World War I many women chose electric cars because they started instantly without hand cranking and had no difficult-to-shift transmission.

[9873210]

Just as ICE cars were well beyond the reach of the mass of people to start with, so it is now with BEVs.

When ICE cars were well beyond the reach of the mass of people, horses were even further beyond the reach of the mass of the people. Cars, bicycles and train tickets did not replace horses for the masses. They replaced Shanks's pony. More realistically they were something entirely novel. That's where the analogy breaks down. BEV are not doing anything ICE are not doing, except not spewing CO2, which is not a direct benefit to the driver.

[9873210]

I can't see any argument that BEV have overwhelming superiority on any metric except not destroying the planet. They may eke out a few percent advantage in a few other areas but it's nowhere near the one-sided horse v. model T.

OK, I'll rise to the bait.

EV's have a vastly better torque "curve". Sorry I'm using a petrol head term. Torque in a EV is a horizontal line, then falls after a certain speed. With IC engines it climbs from, well technically ZERO. Peaks then falls in a curve.

ZERO? I'm sure that everyone who learned to drive a manual transmission has stalled their car, even if it is long ago.
IC engine can't start! They either need a man with a crank, or an electric motor.

I think that you mean, "any metric that I choose to regard as relevant, while ignoring all others".
Others HAVE pointed out the ease of pulling away at lights etc.

Most modern cars are capable of spinning their wheels. There's more than enough torque. Few ICE cars have a problem pulling away from a light. Most of them can pull away fast enough to get the attention of a police officer. I've worked on designing BEV and ICE vehicles and the challenge in both cases was limiting torque (i.e. traction control) so as not to melt the tyres. It's more of a challenge for a BEV, but making the engineers work harder is not the point.

I'm not cherry picking metrics, but I am ignoring contrived metrics. Also I didn't say there are no metrics by which a BEV is better, Just there aren't many by which a BEV dominates an ICE the way any car dominates any horse in so many ways. Even there a horse can swim better than most cars, but that's not enough to matter for most users.

[Niksen]

BEV are not doing anything ICE are not doing, except not spewing CO2, which is not a direct benefit to the driver.

Well the thing that my BEV is doing for me that no ICE I have owned has done is to give me a quiet life

When my wife goes out first thing on a winter's morning the car has defrosted, demisted, and warmed itself to a timed schedule, so she can just jump in and go, and during her drive as a single gear BEV with massive torque it gives her confidence, and despite it being cold the car performs as if it is a warm summer's day with none of that sluggishness from a cold ICE.

Now none of that might seem to be a particularly good reason to have a BEV, and I am sure that I could buy a large powerful automatic ICE and then theoretically adapt it with engine pre-heaters and whatever, but to be honest that would probably cost as much and as cash isn't particularly an issue for me and a quiet life is more valuable then that's why I own a BEV.