Used EV prices

[Urbandreamer]

I've not yet used a public charger because, on the whole I haven't needed to and I have a second ICE car which suits long journeys better. It's a BMW V8 M3 so uses a lot of fuel but only does about 1500 miles a year, if that. Cost per mile is roughly 9p for the EV and 30p for the M3.

Thanks for the rest, but can I suggest a new years resolution.
Use a public charger or maybe more than one, when you don't need to.

Why? Well to reduce anxiety when you do need to use one and provide options in the future.

I suspect that financially you will find a public charger has no advantage over a petrol station, but it might provide options when you consider changing cars.

[forgotusername]

thx for the suggestion. I'll do so when I get the opportunity - it makes sense to try before I buy.

[DrFfybes]

4) High depreciation of car

4) Figures? Have you any links to show this is so? I think it might be too early to be really sure and the past three years have been really weird for all drivers. I think my jury is out on this one.

Erm, isn't this how thie thread started That 3 to 5 year old BEVs were cheaper than their petrol equivalents, despite starting our more expensive.

We used the i3 for a family holiday last summer. The journey was just about 180 miles so at the limit of our combined range. I took a couple of cans of fuel just in case.

Now that's taking range anxiety to a whole new level . You do know there are loads of roadside places selling petrol these days?

Paul

[Tedx]

Hmmm....being rear ended with a pallet of lithium batteries onboard and a couple of cans of petrol in the boot.

[Urbandreamer]

Hmmm....being rear ended with a pallet of lithium batteries onboard and a couple of cans of petrol in the boot.

The problem is more the couple of cans of petrol and the existing petrol tank.
Here is a crash test of the battery on BDY's EV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2J0BVxt-rg

[Arborbridge]

4) Figures? Have you any links to show this is so? I think it might be too early to be really sure and the past three years have been really weird for all drivers. I think my jury is out on this one.

Erm, isn't this how thie thread started That 3 to 5 year old BEVs were cheaper than their petrol equivalents, despite starting our more expensive.


Paul

I think I would like a bit more information before coming to a conclusion. As you know, the past three years, at least, have been really weird for EV prices. In my view, it is still early days to talk about the depreciation behaviour of EVs over the long term, whereas with petrol cars we have decades of experience and data.

However, I concede it was a concern of mine, and I would expect the depreciation to be much worse than petrol cars. In my case, I am not too worried as this could be my last car: it's my kids that will be annnoyed with my p***ing their inheritance up the wall!

Arb.

[BigB]

Apologies if I missed it but I didn't see reference to Covid supply chain issues (and chip shortage) impacting 2nd hand values dramatically from early 2020. Car hire prices were stupidly hit also. I believe new car supply norms were reestablished only last year.

I was quoted £600 to hire a car for 4 days last Jan from Salzburg airport. £200 for the corresponding w/e this Jan - that market has only stabilised in the last year.

Looking at 2nd hand values of 3yr old cars in the current cycle will be effected somewhat by the covid/chip distortion, though I'm unsure of the EV/ICE impacts individually.

[DrFfybes]

Erm, isn't this how thie thread started That 3 to 5 year old BEVs were cheaper than their petrol equivalents, despite starting our more expensive.

Paul

I think I would like a bit more information before coming to a conclusion. As you know, the past three years.....

Arb.

Looking at 2nd hand values of 3yr old cars in the current cycle will be effected somewhat by the covid/chip distortion, though I'm unsure of the EV/ICE impacts individually.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202312194920839?refresh=true

Yes, that's why I started off by looking at 2019 used BEVs - the depreciation bridges the covid anomalies and things are pretty much normal again now. Then I noticed newer ones also seemed to have suffered unduly, although with the Jag that could be the Giles Coren effect. The FIAT 500e only came out in 2021, ISTR it was about £10k more than the petrol version, but is still about £7k more than a similar petrol one so in percentage terms has fared similarly, so perhaps the i-pace is just unpopular.

Besides, comparing 2021 list price versus current used prices shouldn't be skewed, the manufacturers didn't AFAIK hike BEV prices over ICE during the chip shortage as all cars were affected.

Paul.

[BigB]

Has Russia/Ukraine in the last 2 years had more of an impact on electricity price volatility than traditional oil pricing.

Oil prices seem to have always been priced with serious conflict in the picture. Unleaded near me now @ 137.9 per litre, close to pre-Ukraine levels. Electricity pricing still way higher, and perhaps more volatile. Electricity pricing also has huge variations.

Could that be impacting 2nd hand prices?

[Oggy]

Perhaps many folk and the market are seeing through all the hype, and the price is now beginning to reflect reality. A bull market based on a fallacy is bound to crash at some stage.

[Arborbridge]

Perhaps many folk and the market are seeing through all the hype, and the price is now beginning to reflect reality. A bull market based on a fallacy is bound to crash at some stage.

Hype? what Hype? There has, if anything, been months of anti EV rubbish endlessly in the media. Every social media platform is infused with the same anti hype rhetoric.

The government helped to pump prime EV sales, then just after that as demand rose the problems in Ukraine and China choked supply of parts. Not surprisngly, second-hand prices rose and later corrected as supplies came through. Early days yet, but it looks as though the depreciation curve has settled back to what one might expect. To say prices have "crashed" is a somewhat extreme reading of that curve.

What percentage depreciation would one expect on a one year old car? Quite a high percentage, I think.

BTW, I notice VWs sales of BEVs worldwide increased by 21% in 2023 - hardly a crash in sales despite all the antis, and vharge points in the UK have increased by 45%. Both these facts showing that companies have more confidence in the project than some people who pooh pooh the whole idea.

Arb

[Oggy]

Hype? what Hype? There has, if anything, been months of anti EV rubbish endlessly in the media. Every social media platform is infused with the same anti hype rhetoric.

The government helped to pump prime EV sales, then just after that as demand rose the problems in Ukraine and China choked supply of parts. Not surprisngly, second-hand prices rose and later corrected as supplies came through. Early days yet, but it looks as though the depreciation curve has settled back to what one might expect. To say prices have "crashed" is a somewhat extreme reading of that curve.

What percentage depreciation would one expect on a one year old car? Quite a high percentage, I think.

BTW, I notice VWs sales of BEVs worldwide increased by 21% in 2023 - hardly a crash in sales despite all the antis, and vharge points in the UK have increased by 45%. Both these facts showing that companies have more confidence in the project than some people who pooh pooh the whole idea.

Well as you fell for the hype and went and bought one, you would say that.....

[Urbandreamer]

Perhaps many folk and the market are seeing through all the hype, and the price is now beginning to reflect reality. A bull market based on a fallacy is bound to crash at some stage.

Hype? what Hype? There has, if anything, been months of anti EV rubbish endlessly in the media. Every social media platform is infused with the same anti hype rhetoric.

The government helped to pump prime EV sales, then just after that as demand rose the problems in Ukraine and China choked supply of parts. Not surprisngly, second-hand prices rose and later corrected as supplies came through. Early days yet, but it looks as though the depreciation curve has settled back to what one might expect. To say prices have "crashed" is a somewhat extreme reading of that curve.

What percentage depreciation would one expect on a one year old car? Quite a high percentage, I think.

BTW, I notice VWs sales of BEVs worldwide increased by 21% in 2023 - hardly a crash in sales despite all the antis, and vharge points in the UK have increased by 45%. Both these facts showing that companies have more confidence in the project than some people who pooh pooh the whole idea.

Arb

Don't feed the trolls. As you say, the numbers tell their own story and are hardly secret.

[Arborbridge]

Hype? what Hype? There has, if anything, been months of anti EV rubbish endlessly in the media. Every social media platform is infused with the same anti hype rhetoric.

The government helped to pump prime EV sales, then just after that as demand rose the problems in Ukraine and China choked supply of parts. Not surprisngly, second-hand prices rose and later corrected as supplies came through. Early days yet, but it looks as though the depreciation curve has settled back to what one might expect. To say prices have "crashed" is a somewhat extreme reading of that curve.

What percentage depreciation would one expect on a one year old car? Quite a high percentage, I think.

BTW, I notice VWs sales of BEVs worldwide increased by 21% in 2023 - hardly a crash in sales despite all the antis, and vharge points in the UK have increased by 45%. Both these facts showing that companies have more confidence in the project than some people who pooh pooh the whole idea.

Well as you fell for the hype and went and bought one, you would say that.....

Well, that got a chuckle! *

*PS note I bought one even though I was never convinced of the economic case (I said as much on here at the time, several years ago) for the sole reason that I was impressed with the drive and wanted to try one. I hadn't even thought of getting one until looking for another car and had a test drive. Originally, I was going to buy a Toyota Cross, but then changed my mind and went the whole hog. So, I'm a natural sceptic just along for the ride!

Arb

[Arborbridge]

Don't feed the trolls. As you say, the numbers tell their own story and are hardly secret.

I think he's harmless

[Clitheroekid]

Like virtually everyone I know I'm perplexed by the pro and anti EV arguments, feeling that I can't really trust any of them, as they all seem to emanate from people with vested interests.

But I found this video from the excellent Harry Metcalfe to be one of the most useful sources of information I've come across in a long time, and as it's the product of actual experience, not just theory, it carries a lot of credibility - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw

[9873210]

Like virtually everyone I know I'm perplexed by the pro and anti EV arguments, feeling that I can't really trust any of them, as they all seem to emanate from people with vested interests.

But I found this video from the excellent Harry Metcalfe to be one of the most useful sources of information I've come across in a long time, and as it's the product of actual experience, not just theory, it carries a lot of credibility - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw

Anyone know of a transcript I can read in 2 minutes instead of wasting half an hour watching a really slow paced presentation?

Youtube may not make people stupid but it sure makes them slow.

[kempiejon]

Anyone know of a transcript I can read in 2 minutes instead of wasting half an hour watching a really slow paced presentation?

Youtube may not make people stupid but it sure makes them slow.

Youtube can adjust the play back speed and you can run at double time. Cog icon for settings. playback x2. Youtube offer a transcript. Expand "more" scroll down for "transcript." It's not youtube keeping you slow.

[Howard]

Like virtually everyone I know I'm perplexed by the pro and anti EV arguments, feeling that I can't really trust any of them, as they all seem to emanate from people with vested interests.

But I found this video from the excellent Harry Metcalfe to be one of the most useful sources of information I've come across in a long time, and as it's the product of actual experience, not just theory, it carries a lot of credibility - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw

We have had a KIA BEV for three years - due for its MOT in a couple of weeks.

It’s a sample of one. No vested interest as I drive a nice ICE!

A second car, low mileage, it costs less to lease than the 1.4 VW petrol Golf it replaced. It is more refined than the Golf, better Satnav, slightly more spacious, nice head up display. Simple to drive. Mrs H took about two minutes to understand the controls when it was new. Apart from the touchscreen Satnav the controls are all switches just like an “old” car.

We are lucky that we were able to fit a charger in the garage so it’s ridiculously cheap to run on Octopus Go off peak tariff (which we use for the tumble dryer etc as well). Fuel cost per mile is just over 2p.

It has a range of 300 miles driven carefully in the summer (it is wonderful to drive in city centre traffic - every time the car in front slows the BEV matches its speed and the battery charges, so slow moving traffic jams are a joy!) and around 200 miles driven fast on a motorway in rain with the heater on in winter. We have only had to charge it away from home a couple of times when we’ve used it for a long journey. The longest trip took a little planning and included a free (slow) top up when we had lunch at a restaurant plus a trip to a Morrisons car park for a very fast, expensive charge.

We are lucky to have two cars and the BEV is brilliant as a second car especially for short journeys when it is freezing cold as it literally warms the seats and steering wheel within 200 yards of setting off. (I could pre-warm but don’t bother.)

I guess the proof that we like it is that I negotiated to extend the lease to five years and was pleasantly surprised that the monthly cost (including maintenance, tax etc) went down a little to £238 a month, which implies the leasing company is relaxed about the residual value.

I do take some long journeys and we always use my petrol engined motorway cruiser. Which incidentally was much more complicated to set up initially than the BEV.

I have driven a number of other BEVs - Tesla (Irritating touchscreen), Polestar (very nice), BMW i4 (wonderful), KIA EV6 (nice), Nissan Leaf (nice), Fiat 500 (fun but a joke!) BMW i3 (ok). However, in my view, none of them would be as convenient as a similarly priced ICE car for someone who fairly regularly drives long distances and appreciates a car with a 500 mile plus range.

So verdict for sample of one - if you have off road parking and seldom drive more than 180 miles a nice BEV would be fine. And as a second car - brilliant.

regards

Howard

[jaizan]

But most ev batteries have long warranties (eg 8 years), and the risk of them failing is quite small.

1 The risk of failure is small, but gradual loss of capacity is guaranteed. If a car can just do my longest journey when new, after 5 years it cannot do it.

2. An 8 year battery warranty doesn't count for much if I'm buying a 5 year old car and keeping it for 10 years. I would be inclined to depreciate the car to zero over 8 years. Whereas, my diesel car has the same size fuel tank as when it left the factory.