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BOI prefs

GrahamPlatt
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BOI prefs

#341219

Postby GrahamPlatt » September 18th, 2020, 3:23 pm

Hi,

Given the recent word on the street that UK interest rates will remain very low (circa 0.1%) for the next 5 years and may even turn negative, I’ve been turning my thoughts to the 13.375% prefs, (presently available at £2 so ~6.7%). I have checked BRIGs figures (BRIG = Bank of Ireland voting shares) and like the figures, but given they tried to call the prefs a few years ago, I wonder if they might not have another attempt once the UK is properly out of the EU. Well, if HMG can renege on international treaties... Not wanting to get political, just looking for opinions.

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Re: BOI prefs

#341240

Postby GoSeigen » September 18th, 2020, 4:53 pm

GrahamPlatt wrote:Hi,

Given the recent word on the street that UK interest rates will remain very low (circa 0.1%) for the next 5 years and may even turn negative, I’ve been turning my thoughts to the 13.375% prefs, (presently available at £2 so ~6.7%). I have checked BRIGs figures (BRIG = Bank of Ireland voting shares) and like the figures, but given they tried to call the prefs a few years ago, I wonder if they might not have another attempt once the UK is properly out of the EU. Well, if HMG can renege on international treaties... Not wanting to get political, just looking for opinions.



BOI are not preference shares they are debt, and there is no call option unfortunately, they are perpetual. So pretty much no chance at all that they will call them. If you are a holder wanting out you just have to take your chance in the market.

Bank of Ireland ordinary shares EPIC is BIRG. There is a fair bit of equity value here but everyone seems to hate the banks. IMO either the BOI debt or the ordinary shares are a good buy but they offer quite different risk/reward profiles of course.


GS

GN100
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Re: BOI prefs

#341514

Postby GN100 » September 20th, 2020, 2:31 pm

A bit of history here. The Republic Finance Minister, a certain Mr Noonan, around the time of the 2008 'crisis' attempted a sort of compulsory purchase of these instruments - probably at par but I can't now remember. Unfortunately for him, these were enacted under UK law (due to their history of starting life as Bristol & West BS prefs). The Court Case duly took place and, although a holder, I didn't attend but several posters on TMF did. The result was described as the said Finance Minister departing with a 'bloody nose' vowing he would be back. Naturally, he never was and we kept our BOI.

All this is from memory and it's water under the bridge now. However that protection still exists under UK law and I think is quite reassuring - despite the later Court Case shenanigans with Lloyds and their totally fatuous 'drafting infelicitation' = drafting mistake excuse. There is still a little reputation left in the City and, personally, I am happy to hold BOI but not Lloyds Prefs on trust grounds alone.

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Re: BOI prefs

#341560

Postby GoSeigen » September 20th, 2020, 7:53 pm

GN100 wrote:A bit of history here. The Republic Finance Minister, a certain Mr Noonan, around the time of the 2008 'crisis' attempted a sort of compulsory purchase of these instruments - probably at par but I can't now remember. Unfortunately for him, these were enacted under UK law (due to their history of starting life as Bristol & West BS prefs). The Court Case duly took place and, although a holder, I didn't attend but several posters on TMF did. The result was described as the said Finance Minister departing with a 'bloody nose' vowing he would be back. Naturally, he never was and we kept our BOI.

All this is from memory and it's water under the bridge now. However that protection still exists under UK law and I think is quite reassuring - despite the later Court Case shenanigans with Lloyds and their totally fatuous 'drafting infelicitation' = drafting mistake excuse. There is still a little reputation left in the City and, personally, I am happy to hold BOI but not Lloyds Prefs on trust grounds alone.


Well that's an extraordinary version of history!

In 2008, far from taking any action against BOI holders the Irish government guaranteed the security of debt holders in all the Irish Banks for a period of, IIRC two years. In order to do this the Irish government and Central Banks provided both capital and liquidity to the Irish banks.

It was after the termination of this guarantee that BOI holders had to defend their bonds. Mr Noonan was not involved in the initial tender offer for BOI. The (coercive) offer was make to bondholders by the Bank of Ireland and withdrawn by the Bank of Ireland after media and legal pressure were put on them.

What Mr Noonan considered doing was to issue a subordinated liabilities order (SLO) and this was in Nov 2011. He was empowered to do so by Irish law supported by the European Union. To the best of my knowledge no legal action was taken against him because he didn't do anything: he announced a consultation and then reversed course about his intended SLO.

BOI is still vulnerable to an SLO if one were to be made, but why anyone thinks it would be is beyond me. The Irish banking crisis is now almost ten years past and Irish banks are a million miles from their position at end 2010.


If the poster doesn't believe in the rule of law (the Supreme Court having ruled in Lloyds's favour) that is up to him, but IMO Lloyds's reputation hasn't been damaged at all beyond a few private investors who refused to let go of their bonds until disaster struck. LBG have absolutely no problem raising capital in the markets and at lower yields than before the ECN case.


GS

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Re: BOI prefs

#346025

Postby GN100 » October 7th, 2020, 9:55 pm

I stand corrected - especially re the date which was in 2011, time dims the memory.

https://citywire.co.uk/investment-trust ... ds-insider

and more here

https://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2011 ... igh-court/

I still hold my BOI

GN

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Re: BOI prefs

#346054

Postby johnhemming » October 8th, 2020, 6:55 am

This was a TMF banking board thing.

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Re: BOI prefs

#346058

Postby GoSeigen » October 8th, 2020, 7:28 am

GN100 wrote:I stand corrected - especially re the date which was in 2011, time dims the memory.

https://citywire.co.uk/investment-trust ... ds-insider

and more here

https://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2011 ... igh-court/

I still hold my BOI

GN


It was a complicated recapitalisation process made difficult because the banks' so-called capital was no use as capital in a crisis! Thus the quid pro quo for the Irish Government rescuing the banks was that it had to force bondholders to absorb some of the loss through the Subordinated Liabilities Orders (SLOs) which affected several Bank of Ireland bonds, but not BOI.

Additionally the democratically elected government and majority shareholder (along with the CB in charge of financial stability) pushed the banks to tender for their bonds at large discounts with the threat of SLO to encourage take-up of the tenders. BOI was initially included in one of the tenders but the issuer withdrew in the face of a fierce publicity campaign by, amongst others, regulars on the TMF Banking Board as mentioned by John Hemming.


GS

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Re: BOI prefs

#346063

Postby johnhemming » October 8th, 2020, 8:12 am

I dont think the legal action was irrelevant.

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Re: BOI prefs

#346101

Postby Alaric » October 8th, 2020, 10:20 am

johnhemming wrote:I dont think the legal action was irrelevant.


Part of the background was that the BOI debt had previously been Bristol & West PIBS before the BOI takeover. PIBS (Permanent Income Bearing Shares) had been marketed by Building Societies as suitable for individual investors looking for a fixed income in perpetuity as well as being part of a Building Society's capital structure.

Irish government attempts to confiscate British pensioners' savings became a presentation of the issue.


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